Forging Resilience

12 Ryan Pickard: "Even if I was undisputed World Champion, it wouldn't have been enough".

• Aaron Hill • Season 1 • Episode 12

Share episode

Send us a text

Ryan Pickard, accomplished boxer and co-founder of 12x3 boxing club, joins us for a discussion about the perils of perfectionism and the unexpected freedom found in psychedelic exploration. 

In this revealing session, Ryan unpacks the complex dynamics of family expectations, uncovering how a ceremonial ayahuasca journey re-framed his approach to leadership and personal support. 

It's a heart-to-heart that dives deep into the art of giving love, not as we imagine others need it, but as they truly do—especially when it comes to the connections that mean the most.

We'll explore the thin line between high achievement and personal turmoil, discussing how alternative therapies like ayahuasca can lead to monumental shifts in perspective. 

https://www.12x3gym.co.uk/

https://www.instagram.com/ryan__pickard/

_______________________________________________________________________

If you found value in today’s episode, it would mean the world if you could take a moment to leave us a review.

Your feedback helps us grow and reach more people looking to build their own resilience.

And don’t forget to hit that like and subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

Follow my social media accounts | LinkedIn | Instagram |

Click here for my monthly newsletter, mix of insights, reflections and questions. To share with other driven people like you, for your own insights and application.




Speaker 1:

Hi guys and welcome to Forge in Resilience, exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership. Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today I'm joined by Ryan Pickard, the junior world silver medalist, youth Commonwealth Games gold medalist and a senior European bronze medalist for his club and country boxing. He's the co-founder of 12x3 boxing club in London and is an incredibly creative and thoughtful down to earth club. Today we dig into Ryan's perfectionism, how people pleasing has showed up in his life and how psychedelics have helped give him the insights he needs to change and progress his life. Enjoy, ryan. Cheers for joining us today, mate. I appreciate you taking time out your day.

Speaker 2:

No thanks for having me mate.

Speaker 1:

No worries, buddy. How was Christmas mate in the new year?

Speaker 2:

Christmas was good. I think that I find Christmas normally quite a juggle, quite a pressure, and this year I just shut up shop and done it at home and was with my missus and my boy and, yeah, we had a nice time and anyone that wanted to see us and spend time with us they came over and we saw them and it was a nice chill time. Rather than being that blue but old that flies around and tries to please everyone, I just kind of made sure that we were okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, nice one. Why is Christmas been a bit of a struggle for you in the past then, mate, or why is that something you wrestle with, potentially?

Speaker 2:

I think that I think there's a part of me that has always tried to please everybody and I've never had a great relationship with my mum and I think that can become. You know, you're trying to conform to what society says and you're trying to make sure that you know you have a family Christmas and you see everyone and there's always you know, there's always been a bit of friction there and it like you're trying to make sure that it's okay for everyone else and you want everyone to have a nice time but yet a detriment of your own in a way. So you're sort of trying to fulfill those obligations and put on the mask and a brave face. But really I think it can be. It can be hard. You know what I mean and I think this year was one of the first times I've ever gone.

Speaker 2:

Do you know what I mean? The only other time I remember I remember feeling like this was when I was abroad for Christmas, just me and my brother. So that was that was like no obligations were possible because I was away anyway. And this time I just kind of you know me, my missus in my boy we just had a nice chill time and made sure that he had a good time, like he's my priority.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's awesome when we get to do that, isn't it? And especially kids with now our kids are at that sort of age is very interactive, and to see them feed off that sort of energy, I think it makes it quite worthwhile, isn't it? I think things because it's easier sometimes when, like like you say, when we can put the time and energy into things that are important, rather than the whole family and never knowing quite what they want or how to address it, when we yeah, when we can hunker down slightly and construct what's important to us.

Speaker 1:

I think it becomes a bit more well. At least that's my perspective.

Speaker 2:

It can become a little bit easier yeah, I mean it makes me want to dive straight into one of the things that I think helped me, which is you know, it's probably extreme end of the spectrum for the last 14 years I've been, I've been doing psychedelic plant medicine called ayahuasca and I pretty much do it once a year. Sometimes it can be six months, sometimes it can be 18 months, but I did it just before Christmas and one of the big insights that it gave me was that, you know, I said I'm a bit of a. I've always tried to help, I've always tried to please others. I feel like that's been a blind spot for me trying to make sure everything's okay, trying to be the fixer, the fixer of the problem. And one of the insights I had this time was amongst many was that the only way you can really help is by living by example.

Speaker 2:

And what I think I've done is in my relationship as well as a person. I think I see somebody through my own lens and I go to them and I give them the love that I think they need and try to fix the problem. And it made me realize that I don't know what they want. I don't know where they're coming from. I have my own projection. I have my opinion of what they want and so, living by the example that you believe a human being should be in a joyful, happy, content life, and if somebody wants to join that bubble, then they'll come knocking on your door and then they can become part of that bubble, especially if it's family, loved ones, even when you love them so much, like I love my son, I'm only projecting life through my own lens by giving him what I think he needs. If I can be a secure, content person and he's in need of something, he will come to me. I just need to make sure that he knows that I'm here. I'm here whenever you need. Yeah, yeah and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I love it, mate. And that is the challenge, isn't it? It's dropping our own perceptions and filters of how we seal the world to be who we need to be so that, just like you said, that when those people need us, we're there for them, they're attracted to what they need because they see that in us. When do you think you first became aware of really needing to be a perfectionist of people? Please, at your own detriment.

Speaker 2:

A perfectionist. I've known that for quite a long time. I couldn't tell you a eureka moment that I went how I'm a perfectionist. I think I've just always been it. I draw, for as a kid I always drew and I always wanted to get it better and better and better. And within boxing I won a world silver medal with the junior and I was fuming on the podium because it was a silver and a gold. It's always been there. I cried when I lost in the national final because I wasn't national champion.

Speaker 2:

Before that, I had to be the best in order to be good enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the thing is with perfectionism it will help you get so far.

Speaker 1:

But the way that I consider it sometimes and I'm not sure if you can relate to this is that it's quite a not a volatile fuel. But I wonder is it sustainable for us and those around us? I think it's a good thing. Is it sustainable for us and those around us?

Speaker 2:

Well, the way I see perfectionism is it's an obsession or an addiction, in a way. Right, it's like to be perfect or to be the very best at something. You are obsessing over that thing in order to get to the very top of it, to get to the best of it, and I can't see that any obsession is a healthy thing. So if you're obsessing over perfectionism, then you need to look inward why, why am I obsessing over this? What's the root of this obsession? And then, if you can become more content with I suppose where I'm trying to get to is to be able to enjoy something for the love and passion of expression, instead of needing to be the best at it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And have you managed to change that relationship in terms of boxing? Yeah, if we switch to boxing for a second. When you won that silver medal and fighting for the national championship, did you continue to compete after those, or what finished your?

Speaker 2:

career. Yeah, I mean, I strived for perfection, I'd say to the point where I drove myself a bit crazy and when perfectionism wasn't reachable, the wheels started to fall off, and then I started to lose a grasp on life, and then I started to realise I need help. And if it was subconscious, it was I need help. And then I searched for help because it came a point where so just to sort of give you a context of what the wheels fallen off was from the age of 15 was the first time I got in any sort of violent situation outside the ring and it opened up something in me and it kind of grew and grew and grew and got kind of more intense as the years went by. I became less and less tolerant for anybody that wanted to tread on my toes in any way and I yeah, I suppose I was trigger happy, put it that way and I ended up in a situation after I realised that I was in a very toxic kind of cycle. I pulled myself away from it in an attempt to try and change it, and in so many times when I listened to people that talk about their story, they end up paying the price anyway. And I got into trouble on a building site where, look, it was a bad person, it was a bully, it was a racist, it was a horrible guy. But it wasn't my fight to fight. And I ended up in a fight with this guy one day and he came off worse and I was looking at nearly 10 years in prison and I spent a year awaiting trial and thankfully went to trial, proved that it was in self-defence. I got acquitted of the charges but it was to the wire and it kind of scared me enough to go. I need to change the direction somehow. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I need to.

Speaker 2:

And it came to like I went to the doctor, said to the doctor look, I'm basically scared of what could be. The doctor said well, everyone's got a temper, just wasn't getting me. I didn't feel a connection. He didn't help me. He sent me on my way and sort of said an option was taking antidepressants or some sort of pill. And I wasn't interested in that. I had my perception of what that was and I suppose I grew up in a house where my mum kind of took pills and stuff. But I didn't think it helped and I was again going down that road.

Speaker 2:

I didn't want to conform to what I'd already seen and then so I went to a few things trying to find some sort of help, and I went to a hypnotist and the hypnotist helped me the first time I saw him. And then the second time I saw him, nothing really happened. And he said to me look right, I don't think this is the thing, but have you heard of ayahuasca? And I had heard the word, but I didn't really know much about it. And he voted down to go and Go and research if you want to do it. I've got the people and long story short. I ended up doing it a year later and the reason I'm telling you that part of story is because once I started to gain help and have insight into me, I didn't need to win anymore. I knew why I was trying to win, I knew why I was obsessed with winning and being a perfectionist and I just from that moment on, I just didn't need it as much anymore. And it was a process of breaking it down over years to get to where I am now.

Speaker 2:

But that initial thing, the boxing itself right, I don't know if you've heard about Deontay Wilder. Recently he came out and spoke about the fact that he has found peace in ayahuasca. And then you watch his performance and I could see ayahuasca in him. He just didn't want it. He just didn't care enough.

Speaker 2:

And you care because of something deeply rooted in you that says you aren't good enough and you cannot be average, because if you're average, everyone's above you. You've got to be great in order to be equal. You know what I mean. There was something deep inside me that pushed me, and I wasn't stable enough in my life to get to that either. I had all the talent, I had all the drive, but I didn't even live anywhere for three years. At the time when I was boxing for the national team, I wouldn't even live in anywhere. It was insanity, really. But somehow the drive was strong enough to make me still win medals A Commonwealth gold in the youth Commonwealth Games and a bronze medal in the Europeans. I was still getting those medals, even though there was no foundation to work from.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, do you think if you'd won gold, you would have still needed that sense of validation?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, Absolutely. I realised that even if I went on one, even if I was undisputed champion of a middleweight in a pro boxing which is like the end goal or Olympic gold medal it wouldn't have scratched the itch. All it would have done was fulfilled my ego for that moment, and then I would have gone back to my life where I wasn't good enough anymore.

Speaker 1:

You know, because that's like you say. That's the deep rooted belief or seed that fuels everything. Yeah, and it's a conversation we've had a couple of times in quite interesting places. I think one of the conversations that sticks out to me was on our flight, probably to Australia, watching the sun pop up over the clouds there, about, yeah, high, high level performance and a round of. Does it always come from a place of need, do you think?

Speaker 2:

I've been wrestling with this for a while. You know I'm doing my own podcast and it stems from a vision I had in Iowa school where I understood exactly why I was fighting and when I say fight, I don't mean in the ring, I was fighting. Every part of my fibres was fighting to get to be good and I understood that and I thought maybe that's everybody, everybody at the highest level of everything. Maybe that's everybody. And I still have that belief to some degree. I think that greatness comes from adversity. So-called greatness comes from adversity, and you are driving from some hole in you. Let's take a musician, for example. You don't get musicians writing about how easy today was you get them talking about the deepest, darkest moments that they've overcome, or the heartbreak they had, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:

And they derive their expression from their adversities and their lackings, and they're deeper rooted, I think, than the actual subject they're talking about.

Speaker 2:

So they might be talking about the girlfriends that they've just broke up with, but actually it's probably something like an abandonment issue from their mother or their father of some sort. It's probably something that is a pattern in their life and I'd certainly had that and I feel like I see it in others. But maybe, again, it's my projection. But just to get the flip side to that coin, I'm also wrestling with the fact that I believe that we evolved from what a chimp is, some sort of ape, back in the day. And when you watch someone who came on my podcast, actually the director of a documentary called the Chimp Empire when you watch these chimps, You've got certain chimps that are so much more driven than the other.

Speaker 2:

Is it genetic? Or was that chimp the alpha chimp? Was that chimp somehow traumatized at birth and their mum got killed? I don't know the answer. Do you know what I mean? Was there a catalyst for making that chimp the alpha chimp that needs to be the governor? Is there other chimps that are also, I suppose, high up in the hierarchy but don't need to beat their chest about it? So I like to sound mad, but just watching the chimps made me think differently. Maybe there's a genetic element, Maybe some of us just have more drive in our genes. I don't know how that is. I'd need to sit down with a scientist to give me the detail behind that.

Speaker 1:

Exactly that, mate. I think we're deepest level animals, aren't we, but we're also. I think the difference with humans is we've got the spiritual side to us, whether we choose to see that or not. That's another conversation, but I think that's when those two things start to come into conflict. That's when it could be a struggle, like you, with striving to get to the top from the animalistic, potentially, side of things. Yet knowing that that's not in time, that's not your fight to have and asking for help was in some way shape or form that.

Speaker 2:

I think there's a perfect storm there, right? So you've got somebody who's genetically got all of these attributes that would make them the potential alpha. And then you've got trauma that they went through that has made them feel like they're not good enough. So then they end up in this perfect storm of becoming Roger Federer or Serena Williams or Floyd Mayweather or you name it.

Speaker 2:

Any of those people at the top. I believe that one they had the genes and two they have something that they're pulling from. How can you be the best in the world at something and it not scratch your itch? You still keep going for more than a decade.

Speaker 1:

Do you think them, given the your experience with boxing, the people that you've interviewed on your podcast and the clients that you've worked with, that there is balance is possible in terms of being the best and being satisfied?

Speaker 2:

No, I don't think so. In short, I think that in order to be the very, very top, the very best at something, you have to be obsessed with it and for that reason it must be coming from somewhere in you Now to become very, very good at something, brilliant. In fact. I think that's different to becoming the very, very best, willing to die to achieve it. And I don't just mean boxing I'm talking about. Maybe you're not just high up in the bank, you own the bank from nothing, people that come from nothing. I want to say nothing, I mean poverty or, you know, adversity or some sort of lacking, that name and name. There's plenty of people we can pull from in society that you go. Oh, they've got an amazing story. Why is there a story amazing? Because they've tried so hard to not be what they were. You know, in some way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So I know Iowaska helped open your eyes to a lot of things and give you a lot of insights and it helped you challenge a lot of beliefs that were probably running there in the background. But what's been the biggest belief that you've changed to be more accepting of yourself. So you sort of like putting winning on your terms, regardless of if it's just day-to-day life or interactions with clients or the relationship with your son outside of the ring.

Speaker 2:

So I sort of touched on it a little while ago. I love competition. I love competition. I love competing, I love trying to outsmart somebody. You know I want it. I don't play chess, but if I played it I want to win it. I love competition, I want to win and that's enjoyable. This is the chimp fit right. I think that we have that plus. We're humans. We've evolved way beyond that and we love art. We love any form of expression.

Speaker 2:

I love to watch someone do something brilliantly. I love to watch Ronnie O'Sullivan play Schmuckler. I love to watch an artist paint. I love to watch a pot of make a pot. You know, I love to watch someone just doing something brilliantly that has found a way to express themselves. I love to hear someone play the guitar. You know from their heart.

Speaker 2:

But you don't need to be on the Wembley stage. You can do it in your garden. You know. You can do it authentically. It's all about authenticity. Going back to authentically, what is it that? What is it that is my vehicle? What is it that I am made to be able to do brilliantly? And mine was boxing. Right, mine was boxing. And I still love to get in a ring and make someone miss and outthink them. But I don't need to go and prove to the world that I'm good at that. I just want to express myself and I don't know it's just beginning to like the reasons behind why you're doing something. And if you just love doing it authentically, then why do you need to do it in front of a massive audience and why is five people that loved it around a campfire not good enough? So it's like I love the ability to express myself and I want to be able to do that thing brilliantly, but I don't need to prove it to everyone else. It's for me, because I love it.

Speaker 1:

What I'm hearing as my perception is that creativity or play in a state of creativity.

Speaker 2:

So just using the word play these different words come up for me throughout my journey in Ayahuasca and listening to people that are respected or doxical. Gabor Marte, that talks a lot, that I listen to. I think it's really worth listening to and he says there's four inherent needs of a child that they are expected to be there. They should be there. When you're born, you innately desire them because they should be there. And if the freedom to play isn't there, he says the freedom to play in nature. So there's an element of that is connected with nature as well. Freedom to play without restriction. So you're overseeing, but there's no rules. The freedom to play is very important. It's an innate need the ability to rest. So rest is the word. Rest was a word that came up for me in Ayahuasca.

Speaker 1:

I remember you talking about that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I've been thinking about rest a lot, and rest is the ability to not have to work on anything, no relationship, no nothing, just to be able to be and not think I need to be something in order to be good enough or to help, or to be pretty or strong or whatever construct we put on ourselves, to be able to just be you and be comfortable that you are you and rest in that instead of fighting, which is the opposite.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, which I guess comes back full circle for me, and what usually I open up the podcast with. And that is the question what is resilience to you? What does that mean to you? Because, to be able to stand there and do what you love without feeling not necessary feeling, but without taking weight of the judgment of others, take some sort of courage, I think for most of us. But yeah, so I'd turn that to you, mate. What does resilience mean to you, right?

Speaker 2:

I've changed so much over the years. You know, to be able to help somebody, like the first step is living by the example that you believe is the way to live, and there's going to be a myriad of things that are going to come in your way to stop you living that way. And I'm talking about a simple life, right, you know, maybe you get up in the morning and you meditate and you drink green tea instead of coffee. You know what I mean. There may be. Maybe you go for a run, you know, maybe you do 10K, maybe you do 1K. Whatever it is for you, that is OK. This is what this is me at my best. This is me fulfilling my potential.

Speaker 2:

There's going to be a million things throughout your life that are going to try and come in your way and stop you doing that.

Speaker 2:

You know, after a time, that I'm going to have coffee instead of green tea, even if it's as simple as that. Right, resilience has been able to do the day to day thing that you want to be able to do, to set an example for yourself and others and the ones you love, and be able to do that no matter what comes in the way. You know let's say look someone, someone close to you, died last week. You know that's going to knock out. Resilience has been able to still get up and go for the run that you said to yourself you were going to do, because you know that's the best thing for you. And I'm not by any stretch saying that I've nailed it. I'm only really coming to understand that this is what I want to do. You know, before that it was a drive to become the best, but now it's just I'm good enough, I am whole, I am complete, but only if I live in a way that I know I need to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, no, I love it, mate, and it's really interesting that you talk about gay will. There is something, something that's coming up for a lot for me recently, as I forget to play, and that for me, that's three things. It's been on my bike in the woods, I'm playing drums and writing. That's my three sort of like outlets and for me, I noticed that I'm a better person and do better work when I get to play in those three states. Yeah, and often as adults we forget that we really do. Yeah, and I like your definition of resilience. Just like you said, it's the. For me, it means the ability to process what's going on, potentially feel that discomfort, like in the example you gave of the morning that's going on, still knowing what you need to do or want to do, and I also think, give yourself some some time to to feel certain emotions, but know what you need to do and get back to it quite quickly, irregardless of whether you're on the highest of highs or the lowest of highs, Be able to be adaptable as well.

Speaker 2:

Right, let's say, for example, you just mentioned writing and predicting to me as well and talking, let's say. Let's say, for example, you're in a conversation and you said to yourself that you're going to go for a run at half past. And it's coming up to half past and you're in a conversation that's lighting you up. Do you cut that conversation short? And and be regimented? And you know, almost like you know to the book, do you cut that conversation short because you, at 30 minutes past, you're going to go for a run, or do you go I'm going to see the importance of this and maybe cut my run short to eight K instead of 10 K.

Speaker 2:

You know what you've got to be able to adapt and prioritize the stuff that's working for you in the moment and then not be hard on yourself. You know so, on one hand, I'm sort of contradicting myself because on one hand, you want to be able to, you know, live by the rules that you set yourself, but then, on the other hand, not being a perfectionist you know, this is this is hurting me too Like this is better than maybe I'm going to get more from this than I will from that. So having that ability to kind of which, like I said, it's sort of contradictory, but, you know, being able to adapt.

Speaker 1:

I think it's when, when you know which bucket needs filling most and which which activity is going to fill it, and it's having the awareness to know that in that moment maybe that conversation is better to have and the rung can wait. And are we going to die happier with two, two more kilometers in the bank, or a fulfilling conversation which we maybe gain some insights around ourselves and can help others?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, totally. And there's a million examples of that in different ways.

Speaker 1:

Do you know what I mean? 100% there is. What do you think, mate, for I'm not saying necessarily for others, but in terms of yourself what helped you drop that sort of need for perfectionism that somebody, if they're listening, could maybe start to explore, experiment for themselves?

Speaker 2:

One word on psychedelics, but, but, but the sort of the answer that I think anybody can relate to is finding out why you know, and that may be for therapy, it may be for meditation, it may be, I don't know group therapy maybe, whatever it, whatever helps you look inward and if you're, if you're, if you're like driving yourself mad, if you're obsessed, you're addicted, then look inwards and find out why and then once, once you've got even an inclination of why it's going to diminish that straight away, because you go ah, it's coming from somewhere and I mean, I'm not just made like this, it's coming from somewhere.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, buddy, I'm going to start to wrap up because I know you've got an agenda for a friend of mine. And, yeah, really, really appreciate taking time to speak to me. Where can people find out a bit more about you, mate, in terms of business?

Speaker 2:

My name is Ryan Pickard. I'm on Instagram. I see anything I'm on at the moment, but yeah, 12, 3 for 12 times 3. Boxing is where I coach, but you know whatever. Find me on social media.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Nice one mate, Any any news of the podcast, Because I know you're saving banking quite a few. You know you've got an impressive. You've got an impressive list of guests which I'm keen to know what funny.

Speaker 2:

You say that because obviously you know I'm a protectionist and I've been on. I've been on this, I've been on the journey of being a perfectionist. I've done 15 episodes and I'm I'm now itching to release. I just want to release, but I'm also working with perfectionist within what I'm doing, and so the guy that's producing it, is editing it, is trying to edit it perfectly and we're just trying to get that up to scratch. Really, I'm ready to say you know what's the what's the best? Because I don't know anything about releasing podcasts. I'm just all I all I had was an idea and a sort of a need to have conversation. So that's where I'm at and, yeah, asap really. So about, in short, you know, within within the next couple of months, I'm going to start releasing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Nice, I might well look forward to it, Ryan. Thanks again, buddy. It's been absolute pleasure and staying touch. We look forward to watching this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'd love to chat more, so you know whenever you're ready.

Speaker 1:

Cheers, Ryan, All the best mate.

Speaker 2:

I could live forever.