Forging Resilience

22 Ben Medlock: "Wealth solves a lot of problems, but it also creates it's own problems".

• Aaron Hill • Season 1 • Episode 22

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When Ben Medlock, co-founder of SwiftKey, stepped into our "studio", we unearthed the layers of an entrepreneur's journey that often stay shrouded in the glamour of success. 

His story is more than a tech marvel; it's a tapestry woven with threads of resilience, leadership growth, and the tug-of-war between professional ambition and personal fulfillment. 
Ben and I traverse the unpredictable terrains of startup life, from the inception of an idea to its evolution into a product that seduced one of the tech giants, Microsoft.

The harmony of work-life balance plays a delicate tune, and Ben's approach to this symphony is both disciplined and insightful. We reflect on his strategies to maintain a strong foundation in personal passions and relationships, even as the whirlwind of business threatened to consume every waking moment. 

It reaches into the heart of what it means to steer a rapidly growing team while keeping the compass of your well-being pointed true north.

Transitioning from the crest of career success to the introspective valleys of identity post-exit, we navigate the emotional and psychological shifts that come with such a profound change. Ben's openness about embracing the roles of fatherhood and husband post-SwiftKey sale, and the intricate dance with wealth and its power dynamics, offers a panoramic view of life after the exit deal. 

Exploring the possibility of public life involvement, we close the conversation with a look toward the future, pondering the impact one can have beyond the private sector and into the civic sphere. Join us for a deep dive into the life of an entrepreneur who's not just ridden the wave of success but also learned to swim in the tides of change.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Forge and Resilience. Exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership, join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Ben Medlock welcome to Forge and Resilience, buddy. Thanks, aaron, it's a pleasure to have you here. Ben and I go back a long way, probably about since we were 11 or 12, I guess is when we first crossed paths at school many moons ago. A lot has happened since then. So, ben, for those of the people that are listening that don't know, you, give us a bit of an introduction to who you are, what you're up to and anything else that is relevant. Then we'll dive in.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, aaron, sure. So I'm trying to remember whether, back in our school days, I would have told you that I thought you had a face for radio. It's played out that way.

Speaker 1:

Some of them. One day I will play the videos of my mum says I've got the face for TV.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so quick introduction. Aaron and I met at school, where we crossed paths for a couple of years, and since then I guess I probably most sort of people identify me as a tech company founder. I did computer science at uni and various different things in business, but co-founded a company called SwiftKey back in 2007, 2008. And we built the company up over a period of six or seven years and then sold to Microsoft in 2016. And I guess for me, doing the company felt like a bit of a culmination of my school and general educational experience and it was a pretty wild ride. But these days I am primarily a dad. I got two daughters who keep me pretty busy and, yeah, it's been an interesting journey. So I guess that's a really brief summary.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the interesting things about your story, ben, at least for me, is how you went from growing something for it to become so big and then, from what I can understand, the light's going off in terms of finishing and then walking away, and the challenges that that brought, from being flat out in charge of running a big organization and leading the ship to being left in the port, as it were.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, so building the company was in itself an enormous challenge and by the time we sold it we had about 160 people, I think, and we were spread across a few different geographies and it was an incredibly intense experience. Just the process of selling the business was very intense and it had been an incredible ride up to that point. But you're right, I think in some ways the psychological challenge of coming to terms with selling something like that, which has been so immersive for what felt like a long period of time, to moving forward into a different phase of life, that was a particular challenge, for sure. And, yeah, I can talk a bit more about what that was like from a psychological perspective if that's of interest.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I guess so. But before we get there, if I take us back to some of the challenges that you faced when you were building that company, mate, what would those looks like for you, those challenges?

Speaker 2:

So building a high growth startup in that kind of environment for most people I think most founders have this challenge of you're trying to juggle staying afloat, and oftentimes that means raising cash from investors and, at the same time, running the business and growing. And it's always a bit of a tightrope because you're usually never more than a few months away from running out of cash, and so you're focused on raising money but also on building the product and at the same time, you're growing this organization. And for my co-founder and I, we had no experience of running businesses before we started, so you have to learn how to be a leader, how to communicate effectively. You've got to get people excited about what you're doing, and you've got to keep them excited, which, in some ways, is more difficult. So every day was a host of different challenges, some on the people side, some on the sales side, some on the technical side. We were working with a pretty complicated product, so, yeah, it was a lot of that kind of stuff at the point where we were actually running the business.

Speaker 1:

What do you think made you a good leader and able to take your company to quote unquote a successful outcome there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think every leader has a different set of characteristics. Obviously, yeah, and my co-founder and I a friend, john from university we were very much a leadership team and I think partly why it worked well was that we complemented each other quite well. So my leadership style is pretty relational. I enjoy coming alongside people, helping to understand where they're coming from and finding a way to engage with them and communicate with them in a way that I feel will inspire them. So I think for me, quite a bit of it was just about actually my background. So I had the technical background to be able to say this is the way we should build this product and this is what it should look like, and to talk with some authority about the technical background. But then, beyond that, I think it was for me it was about my ability to engage with people, to come across as authentic and honest and, I think, probably to inspire people through the way I communicated the vision and the strategy for the business.

Speaker 1:

So I guess then that would have been the ability to interpret that vision and make it relevant for that person, giving them a purpose and steps for them from where they're at.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's right. I think it's a combination of having a product that people can get excited about. You can't really you can't replace that, but, as you say, then, knowing how to communicate the vision around that product and what impact it's going to have in the market to the various people that you're working with and they're all different, of course, as well.

Speaker 1:

What was life like outside of work for you at that time, ben, when you were at some of your peak moments busy moments, stressful moments?

Speaker 2:

So I think that when people asked me what it was like running a startup, I often told them that it was a bit like having a baby Not that I had experience of that at the time, but it was this idea that the last thing that you thought about at night was the company and the first thing you thought about when you woke up in the morning was the company.

Speaker 2:

And I lived and breathed the metrics that told me whether or not we were succeeding in any one of a number of different areas. So I think my life outside of the company I was actually quite strictly disciplined about getting away and spending time with family and friends and I kept my friends pretty separate from the business because I felt like I needed to do that for a personal sanity reason. And it was good. It was good, you know. I had a lot of fun. I knew how to relax, played a lot of sports, read a lot of books, that kind of thing, but the company was always there. You know, it was always on my mind. You can never really get away from it.

Speaker 1:

And I love that. To be honest, Was that a healthy thing, though, Ben? Would that have been sustainable long term, do you think?

Speaker 2:

I think it was healthy for me at the stage that I was in my life. And actually I know some founders they, you know they're not sleeping properly, they're working 16-hour days. You know I think that's not sustainable, whereas I actually was working a pretty reasonable kind of work-life balance. I rarely ever worked weekends, I took evenings off. So from that perspective I think it was sustainable. But it only really worked for me because I didn't have a family. I know that for me I would not have been able to combine the kind of commitment and focus that I would want to give to a family with what the company required from me, and I know we'll talk a bit about that transition in a bit. But yeah, I think for me it was pretty sustainable. But it was also emotionally very intense and I don't, you know, I think some people they like that intensity and they maintain that throughout their whole life. I think for me that probably wasn't sustainable long term, but for the stage that I was in then it was pretty good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I guess what I'm hearing then, now that I asked you that question and reflect back on what you were saying. But you had the discipline to separate or compartmentalize work, friends, relationships and fall back on the discipline which was encouraged to us by our parents and our schooling to, yeah, exactly that maintain that separation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right and I think it's also a personality thing For me. I never I never got on well with working very long days. I always felt like I worked better if I was able to go and do something else in an evening, you know, play a game of squash or play a ball game or something and read a book.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Would there be any other sort of coping mechanisms or strategies then that you could offer other people apart from being able to divide work life, doing activities taking themselves away from work, that potentially you could offer as a suggestions or that you tried yourself?

Speaker 2:

I think it's really about finding things that are outside of work, that you enjoy, that you can really engage with, because what you have to do, I think, is get your mind into a different place, and that's healthy. If your brain is always chewing over the same problems, the same challenge areas, then I think that's when you get burnt out. So for me, it was things like sport were so important. You know, while I was in the while I was playing the game whether it was football or tennis or squash or whatever you know in that moment, what I really cared about was was winning that match and from for a time I was able to set the company aside Although you know, like I said, it's always there in the background but, but I think that's the key thing for me, you know, finding other areas that give you some perspective.

Speaker 1:

You're a very reflective man, ben, and I remember this from from when we were young lads and there's no doubt Half of our conversations probably went over my head. So I'm very grateful for you for sticking with me in that sense. But how much of of what you went through and did you reflect on at the time, taking, taking lessons forward, be it daily, weekly or monthly?

Speaker 2:

We did a fair amount of reflection. I did a bit of business coaching and, I think because we were dealing with some fairly challenging people issues which everyone does when they're running a company, and also just learning how to how to relate together as a leadership team. That's a big challenge. You know lots of big personalities. You know you want people who are strongly opinionated because they, you know, they get things done and they see the world clearly from their perspective. But obviously that's also that's also a challenge when you're trying to build a team that works together. So, yeah, we were pretty reflective, but at the same time, I think you're also immersed in this challenge of making the business work and so I've had a lot of reflection time since the business was sold and that's a different level of reflection. I would say.

Speaker 1:

You're definitely you know, I guess, like you alluded to earlier, your headspace is different. Now, though, that's right, that's right, it's completely different, ben, what potentially would be some advice you would offer your younger self if you were in some of those challenging days in meetings with colleagues.

Speaker 2:

Now that you've had the opportunity to reflect, I think I would probably just encourage myself to remember that this day passes and the challenges that arise are of a time and you need to walk through those.

Speaker 2:

But you know it can feel like the world's falling apart and I guess I guess I probably wouldn't have listened to my future self in that scenario, because it's easy to say that with hindsight. But I do think that you know there's a lot of self help books been written about how to build successful businesses and you know the seven lessons for a successful founder and all this kind of stuff, and I think there are definitely things that you can take from that. But fundamentally, the challenge of building and leading a business, it's different every time and it's just difficult stuff. A lot of it is just hard and there really isn't a lot of advice. That, I think, makes that much easier. You just go through it. But it's also very exciting at the same time. I think the reason it feels worth it is because you're all focused on this thing that you're trying to build and to me, that sense of we're building something of value that people care about, that that made all of the challenges worthwhile.

Speaker 1:

Built a company, came to selling it. What was some of it? How would the the? The challenge is different when you when it came to trying to sell the company Ben.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's one of the most difficult times in in the course of of building a private company, I would say, because while you're talking to a potential acquirer of the business, you have to run that in parallel with actually keeping the business going and focusing on the future.

Speaker 2:

And Usually you're also having to do this in secret, because the the terms of of the discussion is that they're usually confidential. So so that was one of the most difficult times, I think, where, on the one hand, you have one face which is inward, facing to the company, and you have to keep people motivated, you have to keep the ball rolling, you have to keep moving forwards, and, on the other hand, you've got another face, which is talking to a potential acquirer, and you have to go through every tiny detail of the company To allow them to get to the point of wanting to make, being able to make this final decision Around whether or not they're going to acquire the business. So it's a very challenging time and I Was pretty relieved when it was over. It took about a year from the point where we first started talking to Microsoft in this case To the point where we we actually closed the deal, and it feels like a a long year.

Speaker 1:

We did it that way on your conscience then, ben, that that for one side you were Trying to maintain everything was, was, was normal. Yet it's like you said, in really having these meetings in the back room where the other people weren't involved in.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was difficult, particularly because for John and I and Having integrity and authenticity was very much part of the culture that we built Company so we tried to be honest with people about what was going on. I think people trusted us and then suddenly you're aware that You're not being honest because you can't be in the context of the, the, the business discussions. So you're absolutely right, that was. That was quite jarring for me. Hmm, yeah, I bet.

Speaker 1:

Talk about the end then, ben, and of selling the business and what. What happened after that and what. What did that look like? How did how did life change for you?

Speaker 2:

There were two phases when we, when we sold the company. At that stage, for one thing, I had a boss for the first time in a decade and that was a. That was a strange thing, but, but I had a Period of about two years after we sold the company, where I was helping to integrate the the business as it was into Microsoft as a, as a broader entity so, and that that felt completely different. You know, that phase when the company no longer belonged to me and and Also the, the ultimate responsibility for whether the company succeeded or failed Was also no longer mine, you know. So my, my role For that period was was very different, and that was psychologically hard for me because I was used to being, to being right at the heart of what the company is, what its identity is, how it runs, etc. And I then felt like a bit of a ghost of my former self, you know, sort of still still walking around the corridors of the business, but no longer having that, that central identity that I once had, and Emotionally, I think the, the process of going through the sale had been so intense.

Speaker 2:

I was also pretty tired and pretty emotionally burnt out. So so that was a challenge that period of 18 months or so. And then, when I left Microsoft, you know, I remember the day I walked out the door, went to have have dinner with my wife and that was the, that was the end of it and and that was very strange, walking away From something that had been, you know, absolutely core to my life for the last decade. But in some ways there was a real sense of freedom and release and in another way there was, there was a Just a real sense of, of emptiness.

Speaker 2:

I suppose I would say that Initially the feeling was very much more of freedom and a lot of the challenges that I experienced over the next few years. I Didn't. I didn't know what that would be like at the time. They didn't, they weren't sprung upon me immediately.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, yeah, and I guess once, once you live through such an intense period, irregardless of where, where that is or in what circumstance, if your identity is formed by Well, your identity is part of that company, that company's part of you, and to be divorced from that, I guess there's almost like a mourning phase, even though you there's a recovery phase as well from from from the emotional fatigue you were going through. Would that be fair to say, or I?

Speaker 2:

Think it does depend quite a bit on where you are emotionally. What about?

Speaker 1:

for you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for me, by the time that I left Microsoft this was nine years after we had founded the company From an emotional perspective, I was very ready to let the company go.

Speaker 2:

Actually, okay, I Guess it's a little bit like when you've been in a relationship that has been incredibly formative, but you've been through a lot of strain and there's a real sense of Okay, this actually is the right time to move on to something new.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it's a little bit like that initially, but what, what happened over time was I started to to realize in in my soul what it, what it was like not to have the identity of the company, and the loss of identity Was something that I really did mourn over a period of a number of years really. And so I think that the the morning, the grieving, wasn't really for the company that I lost, because I Guess it to use another analogy it's a bit like when, when your kids have reached a point where they're in the mid-20s and you know it's time for them to leave home. At that point you're you're probably glad that they're able to move on and and and do something with their lives, and it felt like that with the company. But later I think you have to come to terms with the fact that you know you no longer have the, the identity that you once had when you were the, the sort of there's the provider for those children or, in my case, the founder for the company.

Speaker 1:

What did you do or what? How did you change your identity or the way that you viewed yourself After, after you had a bit of time away from that company and time to reflect and rest?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I did a lot of soul searching and I Think, having reflected on it over time, I started to realize that Most people go through a transition in their lives where they gradually evolve from Going out into the world to make a name for themselves and to kind of make their mark on the world, if you like, and Find out who they are. This is the kind of young person's quest and over the course of their life they gradually transition to, to being more of a of a provider for the next generation. And I think Oftentimes, you know, by the time you're approaching retirement, you're, you've, you've really gone through a lot of that transition, and that happens gradually over time, and retirement itself can be a pretty difficult transition, you know, in itself. But for me it was almost like I, I Passed through that transition in a single moment. At the point that I left, I no longer had the, the Requirement to earn money We've made enough money from the sale that that I didn't need to work again and I also felt like I had achieved the, the sort of drive to, to, to make a mark in the world. I, I felt like I had achieved that and I'd kind of sated that, that desire, that appetite and, and so you, looking back on it I transitioned.

Speaker 2:

I was forced to transition almost overnight into a new phase of life and my psyche just simply wasn't ready for that. So I started having problems sleeping. I'd never had a problem sleeping up until that stage, and you would have thought that, under the pressure of things like the deal, closing the deal for the company, that that's the kind of thing where, if I was going to have trouble sleeping, that would be the time. But I remember working through the legal documents up until about 9, 10 o'clock at night, going back home sleeping like a baby, getting up and going back into the lawyers at 9 in the morning to sign things off. And yet, you know, nine months after I left, when I was in my own home with no pressure whatsoever, that was when I started to find I was having trouble sleeping and I think it was my psyche trying to come to terms with a radical shift in phase of life.

Speaker 1:

Did that lead to some dark times for you then, Ben? Were you able to manage your way through that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I did so. I had my partner who was we just got married the year before and she was enormously helpful. So practically I took a sabbatical for about a year. After I left Microsoft, went out into the countryside. We had bought a converted barn out in the countryside in Derbyshire and I spent a long time just being away from the world of tech. I deliberately turned down any speaking opportunities, didn't make any investments. I went completely off-grid from that perspective. But my wife was there with me and she was hugely supportive. But it felt really tough. There were times when I was awake two, three, four in the morning, it was dark, I was the only one there and just trying to get a grip on who. I was off the end of this conveyor belt that I'd been on really for the last 30 years because it wasn't just about the company, it was also my childhood, my whole education before that. It all kind of led up to building that company. I think.

Speaker 1:

Did you change more then in that period, when you were away reflecting in Derby then, than you did during those 30 years? Do you think, Ben?

Speaker 2:

I don't think so. I think I also changed a huge amount across the course of my formative years, but I think I had not had to wrestle with who I was in quite the same way up until that stage. It really felt like the things that had motivated me up until that point and they'd been there my whole life they were gone almost overnight and that left me wondering who I was without those things.

Speaker 1:

So how did you find yourself again?

Speaker 2:

I think, gradually, I made peace with not having to be achieving things to be okay. I made peace with, I guess, being satisfied with what I had achieved and then, particularly when we had kids. So 2018, we went on sabbatical and then 2020, we had our first child right at the start of lockdown. And, for me, becoming a father gave me a different sense of purpose. And what's interesting, I think, is many fathers almost all fathers, in fact they have kids at the point in their life where they're still very much career focused Obviously not in every case, but in many cases and at the very least, usually need to be working alongside raising a family, whereas I felt like I had transitioned to a point where I wanted my primary focus to be raising these kids. Now my identity became out as a dad and a husband, really much more than anything career focused. So it wasn't an easy identity transition. It felt right for me, but it certainly took a number of years to make peace with that.

Speaker 1:

I can relate because I can be in the security industry. Completely different to yours. My point is transitioning away from that world, from the full time dad, for two years, and for me personally, I loved it. I wouldn't change it for the world, but the balance wasn't quite right for me. My kids are a little bit older than yours, so what does that balance feel like now, ben? Does it hold true for you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so the way. So we've got two kids now, one just turned four and one about to turn one, and my wife and I we basically share the childcare between us. And I think, like you, I would struggle if I was doing full time childcare. I need a bit more intellectual stimulation than that provides. But having the flexibility to be able to stand at the nursery door and pick up my daughter every day or a few days a week, that to me is more important than anything else really at this point. And the balance yeah, it's probably. I'm probably spending half my time looking after my kids and half doing other bits and pieces, and that balance is actually pretty good for me. For now, I think, when the kids are school age and they're both out during the day, I expect to be a bit more focused on work, some kind of work, whatever that looks like.

Speaker 1:

What would success look to? What does success look like to you now, Ben?

Speaker 2:

I think success, more than anything else, is raising two happy, functional, well integrated human beings my two daughters. Nothing else really compares with that for me at this stage, but it also looks like using the wealth that we made through the company in an effective way. That's a big part of my responsibility now, and I think it also looks like finding ways to deploy the skills and experience that I've learned in some way to have a positive impact. I don't really know exactly what that looks like, but that's something that I also definitely want to do with my life in this phase. What phase is to?

Speaker 1:

come Something that comes out to me and sometimes I hear it from colleagues, friends and other parents I've managed. I'm very grateful and fortunate to be able to have designed my life, like you, so that I can take my kids to school four or five times a week and be there to pick them up. What would you say to those people who say, yeah, it's all right for you, you've made a lot of money, you've got the flexibility.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's a. I think I'd say you're right. You know it's an extremely fortunate position to be in and I'm very aware that it's not a position that most people will be in. What I would say is I think in our culture, most of us have some degree of freedom over how we spend our time and how much we value the time that we have versus other things. And I do think that we are a we're a we're a pretty materialistic society and there's a danger that that we overvalue cash and things and we undervalue time and again people will say well, you know, that's easy for you to say and I I accept that, but I do. I look at some of my friends who have deliberately chosen, for instance, to work three day weeks and spend two days with their kids, and you know, and the consequence of that is that they live in a smaller house or they drive a smaller car than they would have done otherwise. But but I look at those choices and I think that is that is valuing time appropriately for me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like I guess it's different for different people and in in their stages of their journeys and their their, their level of awareness that the things that are important to them, and I think I think what makes it so valuable, though, is which is a point that I come back to earlier that I I now can recognize as you in you is the ability to reflect. So just step back from not necessarily advocacy, but certain situations to to, I guess, weigh up, so that you're not necessarily reacting but you're responding to, because you know what's important to you and what you want, and it just happens to manifest itself now as having lots of time and freedom to to spend with your kids.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah, I think. I think that the other thing that that I would touch on with regard to the transition for me from the company to the, to my sort of post post company life, was as soon as I had sold the company. I then had a decision to make about how I spent my time, and most people don't get to make that decision because that their time is. It's largely prescribed for them, and you know that there will be a few tradeoffs that they can make. But, but for me, I I really had to sit down and think what is a valuable way to spend my time, how do I value the hours that I have in the day? And if I'm not constrained in terms of how I use those hours, how do I decide what to do? And I spent a lot of time wrestling with with those kinds of questions, you know. And and how important is it for me to maintain my status in the startup world? You know, do I want to be? You know I was.

Speaker 2:

I was seen as a real authority on artificial intelligence and and and the application of AI in in tech, and and I had to ask myself, how much do I really care about that? You know, because if I, if I want to maintain that, I've got to put in the efforts. And the thing that I realized was actually I don't care that much about how people perceive me and my status, or at least when I set that against how much I care about spending time with my kids. There was no real contest there, but but I think there's still.

Speaker 2:

I still struggle with that. You know, I, when I hear one of my peers doing an interview on on the radio, for instance I remember this happened a couple of months back and I had my hand down the toilet as I was washing feces off of a reusable nappy, as you do and and it sort of struck me the juxtaposition between my former life and being interviewed for for TV and radio versus my current life, and at those times I struggle with the loss of status and the loss of identity. But when I really look honestly inside and when I ask myself, what do you, what do you really care about more? The truth is I care more about my family and so I make that decision willingly, but to some extent it's a decision that that I make on a daily, weekly basis.

Speaker 1:

But what's some of the the struggles or challenges that you've faced, that you're willing to talk about, that maybe those of us that are listening might not consider when we've had a successful exit from a company and come into wealth and and freedom like you have.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that the, the, the summary for me, having experienced it now, is that having wealth solves a lot of problems and it creates a lot of problems. And I think it's it's easier to see and predict the problems that it's going to solve than it is to to predict the problems that it's going to create. So so you know, it's not rocket science to to see how having having wealth takes away the, the worry about fundamentally having enough money to do the things that you want to do. And what it does is it buys you freedom. So if you want to spend your time doing x, y or z, you no longer have to think about can I afford to do it? And I also think it solves like it solves the problem of unexpected costs. You know, life is full of unexpected costs and that's a major worry for for so many people. And it kind of solves that worry because you know if you get a parking ticket, it's not a problem, you can just pay for it. So I think that the, the on the plus side, you know, buys you that freedom, which is a, an incredible gift. On the other side, because a relatively tiny proportion of people have a large amount of wealth it's. It isolates you from, from a lot of people that you have probably that have been. You know that you've known your whole life and it's a strange thing. I do think this is very hard to appreciate until it happens to you.

Speaker 2:

But the types of challenges that you have and the ways of thinking when you're, when you're constrained in terms of finances that creates a lot of commonality with other people. A lot of what you talk about is you know how to get the best deal on for this holiday or how much you saved at Tesco. You know whatever it is and for me certainly, that the management of a small amount of money was a huge part of my childhood and, in some ways, a big part of my identity, growing up and as a young person. And suddenly you know at a stroke, all of that becomes irrelevant and and that's surprisingly challenging from an identity perspective you know you a big chunk of your life. You look and feel like a different person and I think when you have when the question can I afford this is no longer relevant. You then need some other criteria for making decisions about what you buy, how much you give to people who need it, who you give money to and how much you spend on your own lifestyle.

Speaker 2:

You have a lot of decisions to make that actually can feel like quite a pressure, which, again, I don't expect anyone to necessarily buy. That because it does feel like a crazy thing to say. You know that freedom in some ways is both a blessing and a curse. And the other thing I think that is very significant is there are power dynamics that come from having wealth, particularly in the context of family and close friends. So when you, when you have the ability to pay for things and to make in some ways to make people's problems go away, you then again have the decision about when to, when to do something and when not to, and when you have the ability to pay for something, there's a certain power that also comes with that and that can really upset the dynamic within families Is that a perceived power, though, ben, do you think I mean something that comes to me when you're speaking?

Speaker 1:

there is that sort of like the abundance and scarcity mindset and how this is got the potential to amplify that, or and it's not the same, but I in terms of COVID for me and my family.

Speaker 1:

When I got to reflect back on how I spent the time with my family, what it highlighted to me was certain strengths and weaknesses in my mindset, bearing in mind my wife was in the intensive care here in Barcelona, on the front line, as it were. Life and death in terms of every day for months and months and months. And yet I was a stay at home dad and all I had to do was tie my kids out, feed them and put them to bed. And yet I know so many other families went through so many difficult, challenging times trying to work in a flat with two kids, but I felt quite guilty about that for a while. But what I recognized, or how I choose to see it, was yeah, I'm very, very grateful and fortunate because I'd been able to create that, but my mindset was exactly that more of abundance and acceptance rather than negativity or scarcity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's right. I think there's a big perceptual element to it, but there's also a power that comes with the ability to make a decision. So I'll give you a hypothetical example. If someone in your family needs an operation and they can't get it on the National Health Service for UK listeners but you know that you could afford to pay for that operation, you essentially have the power to decide whether or not they get that, and in some ways you're deciding whether or not they live a pain free life, for instance. And as soon as you have that power, you then also have the responsibility to make those kinds of decisions, which, if you don't have the means to be able to do that, it's a moot point. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. It's that kind of power dynamic that I'm talking about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll get you, mate, but I know you said you don't really know what the future looks like. But if you were to put a couple of options on the table, is there any possibilities that you flirt with at this moment in time? Or is that getting kicked down the road until the girls are both at school, like you mentioned?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've thought about a few things. You know, the question that people always ask me is would you do another company? And the reality is I wouldn't want to do it the way that I did SwiftKey, because I just have a range of commitments now that I didn't have back then. That would make it a lot more stressful than it was, but I certainly think that being involved quite closely in another startup at some stage would be fun. I'd definitely like to have the chance to reapply some of the things that I learned. The other thing that I've toyed with is getting involved in public life in some form or another. There are certainly enormous challenges that we're facing, both in the UK, where I'm based, and also globally, and I don't know how I can contribute to that, but I feel like if there was a way of doing so in an effective manner, then that feels like it could be another option.

Speaker 1:

Ben. Well, I'm going to start as a wrap up now, mate, but it's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you for your openness, your honesty and it's been a pleasure speaking to you, buddy Pleasure.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, Aaron Thanks.