Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
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Forging Resilience
34 Richard Mann: "I've seen it so many times, as stress and pressure increase, we effort more"
Richard Mann's incredible journey from the Royal Marines to elite private security and ultimately to transformative leadership training is inspiring.
In our latest episode, Richard’s metamorphosis, driven by an obsession with psychology and high-performance states, offers a unique perspective on adaptability and continuous self-improvement.
Richard's stories are not just about physical endurance but also about confronting and mastering internal battles. From grappling with feelings of panic and shame during his early Marine days to the relentless pursuit of mental resilience, Richard’s narrative is a testament to overcoming emotional hurdles. This episode serves as a guide for anyone looking to build the mental fortitude necessary for high-pressure environments.
We also dive into practical strategies for achieving peak performance, distilled from Richard’s work with mentors like Dr. Don Green and elite athletes. He emphasizes the paramount importance of clarity, goal-setting, and mental resilience in both military and corporate settings.
Concluding with insights into his meditation practices and methods for maintaining mental strength under pressure, Richard's story is a masterclass in self-awareness and the power of consistent effort.
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Welcome to Forging Resilience. Exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership, Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today, on Forging Resilience, we're joined by Richard Mann, an ex-UK SF operator who is now a performance coach and he's out there using his skills and ability to help bring along athletes and businesses. So Richie, welcome to the show, buddy.
Speaker 2:Hi, mate, nice to be on. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:No worries, buddy, mate, listen, I'm really keen in not doing big intros. I think it's a lot better to come straight from the horse's mouth. Um, so yeah, I'll hand it straight over to you, mate. Um, give us a bit of of of your background, um, and what you're up to now, mate, in terms of business yeah, um, like yourself, mate, I uh the military sort of was calling at the age of 17.
Speaker 2:I'd been as a kid, I was just uh, I wasn't very academic, but I was just massively into sport and training. That was originally football and then I went into Thai boxing and boxing and and that led me down the sort of martial arts path. Um, and I, I wanted to. I was confused. I'd 17,. I've got sons of that age now, so I'm seeing their confusion. But at that age I was like what the hell am I going to do with myself? And some guy I knew had been on holiday with his cousin who was a Marine, and he goes, I've just been away with this Marine. I was like Marine, what's a Marine? Nothing to do with the military at all. So I was at college, not knowing what to do at 17, kept looking in the glossy brochure of the Marines thing and it was like, ooh, yeah, this looks a little bit tasty, you know. Anyway, next minute I was in the careers office, I joined, and you know, and I was down at the dreaded Limston, and you know, and I was down at the dreaded Limston, getting down there which I can elaborate on as we go probably.
Speaker 2:I did four years in 4-2 commando. At the time I was heavily involved in boxing as well within the corps. So I was. I just wanted to be an athlete really, although I was a soldier. So I was down at 4-2, some deployments, but then I was really, you know, boxing and boxing for the Corps, then boxing for the Navy, and that was what I wanted to do Until it became apparent it started to switch and I was like trained every day and I thought, no. Then SF came calling. From the Marines' perspective, it was SBS. I did think of Hereford, but I got out of Poole to the SBS. So I did selection and then spent 10 years down at Poole with the normal fare, I suppose, of what we were doing there. You know, conventional warfare training, counterterrorism training, all those aspects, still training heavily, still into, you know, at the fitness levels, was always the thing I loved doing. And then it was just this thing of am I going to leave, am I going to stay? You know it was like that sort of crux period going to leave, am I going to stay? You know it was like that sort of crux period, um, and I decided to go.
Speaker 2:A lot of the guys that I was with were working in the private security world and that's led me in into that area. I didn't want to go into private security, if I'm honest, but next minute I was in Iraq looking after um CBS and ABC news crews getting the, getting the money. It was a bit wild west out there, as you'd imagine post-war iraq. It was a bit crazy um and that. But then over the over the course of those uh that time in those years in in private security, some great trips, as I look back on it, but working in the um doing some surveillance tasks, close protection tasks, uh, the anti-piracy thing was a big thing for for a while.
Speaker 2:And then one of my ex-ex-colleagues and friends, they were doing a lot of private security in the superyacht world. So we've got some more glitzy side of private security and looking after high net worth families and and so on. A little bit of a little bit. The glitz side of of uh, of looking after katie perry was one as a as a name drop that I was and I often say I have to say to people one. One of my weird stories, which again I could come back to for a more psychological perspective, was I was the third person on honeymoon with Russell Brand and Katy Perry, which kind of had its challenges.
Speaker 1:And charm, no doubt, mate.
Speaker 2:What sorry?
Speaker 2:And charm, and charm, yeah, so that was the private security piece and then really all through this, I was always interested in psychology, always working away at psychology, and some of that was around high-performance states, flow states, how I accessed those in mainly sort of martial arts training and it wasn't always like I wasn't always my best, my own best friend during those.
Speaker 2:Those periods I must, I must say, very driven and and self-critical I suppose, at points which was, you know, something that I was constantly sort of working out and still do, and but it led into leadership training with organizations and it really led into the deeper work and the deeper study of psychology.
Speaker 2:You know, I didn't really want to just base it all on the fact that I'd been in special forces, but as well. I then had a podcast guest at my end called Dr Don Green, and I studied with him as a performance psychologist, world-leading performance psychologist, who's worked with all sorts of Olympic athletes and top musicians and golfers and so on, and so I was fortunate enough to do a sort of one-to-one work with him, and I still do, I was still in touch with with him regularly, on a regular basis, and that led me into performance psychology and then developing my own concepts of performance psychology, I suppose, and you know, to present day, and that's included really working with some athletes and working with, uh you know, business people, uh, again, probably people working under pressure as well, to try and get the best out of them. So I suppose that's the synopsis, the snapshot of it, mate, yeah yeah, so taking you back there.
Speaker 1:So you're heavily, heavily involved in boxing and you said something just clicked and you want to continue that and SF started calling. What would you attribute that? Switch or click to mate?
Speaker 2:What from the switch from boxing to SF?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I think at the time I'd sort of set my sights on. You know, I've never been good at saying I was good at something originally but I've got better at it. But I was a good boxer and I was like, am I going to go? Sort of a couple of people say, are you going to go pro in this and these type of things? Sort of a couple of people said, are you going to go pro in this and these, these type of things? And but I found that once that the love and the passion of it, and I trained like crazy every day. But once I was, like, forced into a position of uh, three sessions a day, training, uh, watching my diet and all these these kind of things, and and I and I start to really question whether it's really what I wanted. Um, and then it just opened my eyes because I was, I was down at 4-2 commander and I'd seen a couple of guys that had gone on selection um, but probably, as you know, even in a unit as 4-2.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like, even though they did, these two guys didn't pass. One of them came back and subsequently did pass, but they didn't pass at the time. But even then it was like, oh, these, these guys have been on selection and, you know, revered amongst the unit and, uh, I don't know, just sort of grabbed me. I it wasn't really. I was not really kind of right, I'm doing selection. It was just like I went with the flow and thought, right, I'm just going to put my chin go go on selection. And, um, let's go SPS.
Speaker 1:Yeah having done the work that you have on yourself, the deeper work, and having studied performance psychology and worked with some of the great people that you have, is has your reasons, now that you look back, for going on to selection and into the sbs changed? So maybe once you went because it seemed like the next step as as a young man, but now you reflect back, has that reason changed, you think, your perception of why you went there?
Speaker 2:yeah, yes, it has. And um, you know the from the, from the people listening or watching this. It's sort of like your background, my background. It's like whoa, these guys, special Forces, and this impenetrable mindset, if you like, of, you know, of cutting through pressure and so on. It really didn't start for me like that at all and and I have to take it back, I suppose, before going to um, you know the sbs side, I think, going back to when I first joined the marines, really, um, that was pivotal really.
Speaker 2:That then came on to the, to the progression to the sbs, because you know, I was 17 and I and I joined and I got on the, the train down to limston, um, those that have been there, if you don't want to listen, but it is, it was a sort of rickety old train. As you come in, it's like the assault course is on your left hand side and the, the conductor's like next stop, limston, commando is, is the, you know, is the train's gonna stop? Oh, it's utter fear. You know, um, and you get you.
Speaker 2:And I was laughing with one of my guys I know from training because I've watched his commando program and he called it like the long walk from the train station to the accommodation with your suitcase and all that sort of stuff, um, and I just didn't have the mental skills at all to. I'd been boxing and I'd been training with I thought I'd all dialed in because I was training with, like elite athletes, really amazing fighters here in Nottingham. But when it actually came to something like that and I was, you know, people talk about your comfort zone and when you, when it's too far out of the comfort zone, it's just complete overwhelm. And I was, you know, I was just in complete overwhelm and I really found it difficult to handle being there. And I really found it difficult to handle being there. I suppose my protection mechanism was one of panic about things and worry, and I've not really talked a lot about that with people that I've discussed with.
Speaker 1:You know, I think I carried a lot of I suppose going quite deep on this, but I carried a lot of shame from it, and so, at the point, could you manage that though, richie? So on the surface you would be seen keen and always like first and striving to perform, but underneath, that's when the panic and the shame sort of comes from. But underneath that's when the panic and the shame sort of comes from, or were you openly overt in terms of flapping, as we call it?
Speaker 2:I don't think I want to make it out as I don't want to make. I wasn't like kind of losing my mind.
Speaker 1:No, I get that.
Speaker 2:Losing my mind, but it was overt enough that you know, that sort of internal world I'd come from a and I've made sense of this as the years have gone on but I'd come from a world of you know, of, I suppose my mum, you know very sort of anxious and these sort of things, and it led me in those moments. I mean it was almost paradoxical, like the physical tests I could outdo anybody, and you know, and, and and I don't say that to like you know, I'm looking at both sides here. On my 30 miler, for example, where we've got to get in under eight hours and we've got the section and most people are in sort of light order, meaning meaning just the belt kit that they were wearing and we had one pack which was the safety pack. Now, when it was my turn to, you know, to have the safety pack on, I was right behind the corporal leading the section and everybody's strewn behind, you know, and I'm the one carrying the weight, and then when we're trying to get in in the eight hours, the corporal's like get that pack back on, man, you know, and I get that pack on and I can go go harder, and I know that's just something in there so that.
Speaker 2:So there was that sort of paradoxically, there was that side which was very strong, but there was also the sort of the worrying side. They, you know, the mind was overactive, um, basically what I'm coming on to, I suppose, at the moment of of your glory at the age of 18, as a wild agate during 17, 18, that you know your parents are there and and family, and I'm now going to go up and get my green lid, um, and and I stand to sort of attention, and then they say, you know, know, marine man, panic man, starts every day off with a cardiac arrest. And it was just like you know I can laugh about it. Oh, mate, I was like marching up to get the green berry and I'm just like that, and then my head's kind of going panic man, panic man, you know, like this, and then my head's kind of going panic man, panic man, you know like this.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it really sort of like hit at the core at that part. I got my green berry, I'd achieved the dream of Royal Marines Commando, but there was that real tarnished piece, if you like, and I suppose that then became a lifelong pursuit of, of psychology as well. You know I, I was then sort of like I'm not gonna fall foul of this um, and maybe that's sort of and I think now in retrospect, going back to your original question, is, is that was a thing that's sort of driving me on really, you know, I could be strong in a sort of boxing environment, but at the same time then I was going to go to the next stage and I was going to test myself there and I sort of, I suppose to myself, I had a point to prove.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, it relates, and we've talked about this in very similar, in lots of different ways that need to to prove my self-worth to the world by doing difficult things. Um yeah yeah, on the inside, yeah, flapping big time, you know, quite insecure, um, but yeah, luckily. Which leads me on to my next question what have you done then to to manage and process those feelings and and emotions around the, the, the panic and the shame as you alluded to there mate in pressured environments. What's the sort of evolution of that for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, again, I've sat at the edge of a sort of paradox at times where I felt that, you know, people say, weirdly, I was caught up in it right there, but other people say, oh, you really can't, it's an ongoing, it's been an ongoing process of, of making sense of, uh, I suppose, uncovering limiting beliefs and and conditioning, um, and and being able to support in. So I'm doing this because, in some ways, sort of distance myself from that conditioning to understand that that's not really me, and then being able to create the conditions from a conscious perspective so that I can, you know, try and sort of target how I want to be in certain situations. More and more, you know the other, the other thing I would say is that is that that piece of me is, is, is not to back off in of anything that and you know I've had like, for instance, some of the, some of the we know XSF sort of said to me I don't know how you put videos out there, I couldn't do it. And this is, this is people that have been in firefights and and all sorts of stuff. So, you know, I'm a firm believer because you know you're forging resilience name, you know.
Speaker 2:But if we're going to build the perspective of being able to say to ourselves I can do difficult things, and that then becomes something that we're then coming from as a base layer almost I can do difficult things then we have to be able to back that up. And I think that's where many people go wrong, because they want that quick fix. They want that something which is like the hack or the quick fix or they've read the book or done some course or listened to something on YouTube or whatever it may be. But ultimately, I often say that you know, you can't bullshit the mind or we can't bullshit ourselves. We can be in delusion, but we can't really bullshit ourselves, particularly at those moments of pressure, when it's on the line, and when it's on the line, whatever that is for anybody in any given context is, you know, we need to know that we've done the work to say to ourselves that we can do difficult things.
Speaker 2:And you know, like an example of that for me was public speaking. I hated public speaking and I was like, oh my God, you know, really detested it. But then I'd sort of just step into the fray and step into the fray and step into the fray, and it was like over and over and over and keep doing that, um, and then you know you're realizing even now that there's going to be an activation. There's I call it an activation there's going to be a switching on when you're, you're there in front of 50 people or whatever it is, but that you you've you've got it, you've got that in that moment and I think, think that's really then come from. You know, I'll talk about top down, bottom up in terms of approaching psychology, but from a top down perspective, in terms of what I'm then saying to myself, is that you know, that then starts to become, you know, you've got this, you've done this, and then you can sort of allow it to just sort of reflexively come out, to be intuitive and to be instinctive and to allow in those moments. So that's my take on it.
Speaker 2:But in doing that work sorry, going on that, just finishing off on that I had a point.
Speaker 2:I was asked to go out to talk to 50 finance people, a big event for them, yearly sort of of event, and they're super high flyers and, um, you know, it's that that point of talking to them, and I'm and I've sort of up in front of them and I had this sort of like little thing where I'm just I want to engage them first, take the pressure off me, but get them engaged, you know, and it was a bit sort of tumbleweed. I was trying to, I was trying to engage them but it was sort of tumbleweed. And you become aware in that moment of you are literally on the edge and nobody's going to die or anything, but you are on the edge of of, uh, of delivering that and and succeeding in that moment, and I succeeding in that moment, and I suppose in that moment, that's the moment that people can see that you're floundering or you're going to step into it, and it's literally, it's almost like you're on an edge and I think that's where, when you've done the work, you can step in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me it's really interesting when you've done the work, you can step in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me it's really interesting when you talk about difficult things, because I think a lot of times the perception is that that is physical. But for me, my realization and for a lot of my clients and I guess probably to an extent you and the people you work with is a lot of that is emotional now. So it's not the public speaking, it's the, the challenge per se, it's our beliefs and emotions around on feelings around that, what we're making it mean about ourselves, and it's like you were saying, it's like separating ourselves from that. This is that, this is me and here's what it is, and you're, you're allowing those motions rather than running from or reacting to them. So yeah, in terms of those difficult things then, mate, what are some of the things that you do personally or you teach? In terms of the leadership courses that you give for people stepping into difficult circumstances from their own standpoint? What are some things they can do to manage themselves, their heightened state, their on button, for want of a better expression that you used?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean sorry, just to pick up on one of the points you said there was about not always being physical. You know I'm a big believer that. You know, we know guys that have come from SF backgrounds and so on and I, my personal belief, is that you know, you put a pack on any of our backs and tell us to get to a certain we're in a. You know most people go, oh, that's so grueling, you know, but actually that's like you know we're in our zone, then we're in our. You know that's let's go and I was, in fact I was doing. There was one of the guys that got in touch with me from basic training and he it come across me on the podcast and we ended up doing some coaching and we started going down the mental, emotional route that you you're talking about there and he sort of looked at me he goes fucking hell, richie. He goes, put a back, put a back, a pack on my back, and he says and I'll go 30 miles every day rather than do this.
Speaker 2:That's where it's really at and from my perspective, I think that one of the biggest misconceptions that people have, or the dysfunctional almost things that people have, whether it be in sport or whether it be in business, is the amount of pressure that you know, I ask people where does pressure come from? And after a sort of like a bit of thought, most of them will say in here which, obviously it is, because the storylines and what we're saying to ourselves in those moments, um, are the things that are sort of building that, building that pressure. Do I have what it takes? Am I, am I? Am I good enough? Um, and creating an awareness about those is is key and fundamental, you know. So, yeah, so my work always starts with people about self-awareness, and it sounds so cliche, but I find people that will say to me oh, I'm self-aware and I think to myself you know, I practice, you know, through meditational practices, through the daytime, awareness as a core of approaching what I do, and I realize how extremely difficult it is. And what people don't really understand is that we have have awareness, but we're always losing awareness. And you know we are going to be taken with things you know from the, from the environment. So it might be external, but it also could be. We're going to be taken internally, on narratives and down a train of thinking, you know, and then we sort of. You know, we wake up and it's like, okay, now, where where was I, what was I thinking? You know, we wake up and it's like, where was I, what was I thinking about? You know, so, without that start point of awareness in people and beginning to build that, then people are going to, you know, fall into largely dysfunctional ways of thinking, feeling, acting in in any given way.
Speaker 2:Um, I was out with a, a corporate team, um sort of recently abroad and and we started talking about this a little bit and one of the guys you know sort of said you know, how do you change behaviors if you're not aware of them? And I was like, well, you know, pretty, pretty obvious, we don't. You have you have to move them from subconscious, unconscious areas and bring them out into the cold light of day and sort of say is this working, is this, you know is, is it helping, is it hindering, and so, um, that's that's really, you know, the start point. It can go down into more sort of tactical places. Um, I think, I think to, I suppose, encapsulate it maybe for people.
Speaker 2:I did it, I mentioned it before, but the sort of top down, bottom up processes really, um, and and I think of, if you, if you sort of put us in central of that, I think of it in this way, but us central in this, and we think of the top-down processes, our psychology, our mental skills, um, and the bottom-up processes being our physiology and our environment.
Speaker 2:And so you know, in working with teams and leaders and things, then from my perspective, I believe you have to go at this from both angles. And so you know, if you've got to put that in context, if you've got a leader who is setting a culture that's just fraught and people are over, you know people are overwhelmed and you know he's stamping down on people and it's the opposite of what has become a common term of psychological safety, that people, that people talk. If it's not the opposite of that and people are rubbing it in the headlights, then ultimately it's not rocket science to say that they're not going to be able to be in the state of optimal performance in that way. So you know, really, really, look at those two aspects and create an awareness around them.
Speaker 1:I suppose that's the foundation and the start point that I've come from yeah, I guess that would be by questioning challenging beliefs, I guess, and and looking at from what you're saying from the top down and then from small adjustments to the environment, to see how that affects behavior, is that, is that what you're saying, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely, you know, I mean, some of that can be, you know, very practical things as well. I think this is where people, you know and I did this with my mentor, dr Don Green, and also he'd done a lot of work with Jim Lower, who was a performance psychologist in tennis and so on and I think the the big, the big challenge I think that people have with the word psychology and and I think this is prevalent in all areas of society, because people are, you know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and they're talking, uh, mental health, but it's like it's just this sort of nebulous thing that nobody really can grab hold of and say what actually is it? And you know, and I think that's why people really struggle to sort of work with it. And what I'm actually really trying to do with people is look at those psychological aspects. How do they manifest themselves in terms of the actions and behaviours that people actually take, and they can be the demonstration of them.
Speaker 2:So, again, where are they playing it short? Where are they falling back into self-protection mechanisms like, for instance, not being able to set good boundaries and challenge people is something? Why are they doing that? What is it that's challenging you about that. Oh, I can't upset them, or whatever it is. And then we start to understand the, I suppose, the frameworks that people have to, you know, in how they're approaching, and again, some of those things also can be, I suppose, low hanging fruit, as I call it, quick wins in terms of the environment. Maybe you know, and that could be about structure and very pragmatic things and steps that people can take. What do they need to do to set the conditions? And this could be on an individual basis, but it could also be as a collective. What do you need to do to set the environmental conditions for performance so that you don't feel overwhelmed in that environment? So that's how I view it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, In terms of that last question, so setting that environment so people don't go into overwhelm what are some of the things that you've seen that has worked in certain organizations to be able to create that environment?
Speaker 2:our military days. Here, you know, we talk about mission command in the leadership approach, if you like, and really sort of about creating clarity. And I find that you know the intrinsic motivation in people within teams and their ability to manage stress and pressure is often because of all the noise that's kind of going on and people are falling foul of it all the time. But actually you know the experiential difference and also the difference in terms of performance, for somebody that has got real clarity on what it is, you know, on the goals that they're working towards, their intentions and their actions, and when they are, you know, honed and guided towards something, then it becomes quite credible how powerful people can really feel in that sort of setting. Now, the problem being is that you don't get that clarity. It doesn't just drop out of the sky that clarity, and most people I find, particularly in corporate organizations, are so stressed out with time and pressures that they're just spinning plates, putting out fires, whatever you want to call it, but they're just hair on fire and they don't take the time to find that clarity, to really understand what it is that I'm trying to do in this situation. What are those steps? Why am I doing that you know, a lot of people would probably heard of simon sinek.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know it starts with why and he's become quite sort of famous, as me, you know, in the leadership circles of simon sinek, and fair play to the guy, you know he's like, he delivers in a very powerful way and and so on.
Speaker 2:But I hear him talking and I think you know these are just militarisms really, um, but it's weird because you know, when you work with organizations, some of them shy away and don't want to know about military, but yet they want to jump all over sort of simon sinek and what you know and you know phrases such as leaders eat last.
Speaker 2:Well, that's like, uh, you know, at the core of, like, I'm going to you to the army side, you know, but I've done work down at sanders, the uh leadership academy, uh, for the officers down there. But, yeah, leaders eat last is a core principle of of leadership, you know, uh, it starts with why is is a sort of core principle of of mission command, um, you know. So that's the start point and what we're trying to do sometimes is get people to be able to regulate emotion enough so that they can, they can be self-aware enough from. Well, probably the self-awareness comes first. I'm changing, but the self-awareness to regulate emotion, to be able to take time to create clarity and I don't think many leaders that I've seen really do that very effectively at all.
Speaker 1:And, from what I'm hearing, it's creating space to be able to see things rather than having our heads down, or their heads down stuck in the work. And you can kind of understand why, though? Because so many driven people are exactly that driven, trying to prove a point, um that they never, they never get to, so that it's always more.
Speaker 2:More is always the answer yeah, yeah to an extent all right, a hundred percent, mate, it's. Um, there's a, there's a common assumption that I, that I work from as well, which is, as stress and pressure increases, we need to effort more. So to say that, you know, as stress and pressure increases, we need to effort more. And for me, you know, people fall foul of this just literally all the time, whether it's in the gym, whether it's in sport, whether it's in business, as you were saying there and you would, you know, absolutely agree 100%. What you just said there is that it's very counterintuitive when you're under pressure to take space and time. And there's a famous meditation teacher that was like he was the meditation guy for the LA Lakers, so he was meditating with Michael Jordan and Scottty pippen and things like that, and he and he said, uh, you know, people say don't just sit there, do something.
Speaker 2:And he said what it really should be is don't just do something sit there and um, you know, and I've come on to realize, I suppose, and maybe you've had this reflection as well but when we look at, you know, the, the SF training, what is, what is the? The difference? And really, you know, for me it's about being able to managing, managing pressure. For me, in those moments is being able to remain open rather than caught and taken by something which is, you know, immediate. So a lot of people would say being able to respond rather than react. I suppose, in some ways, you know, there is a reaction there, but it's a reaction that's then a sort of a targeted reaction, because you've been able to be open enough to then to select the next action in that moment. And that's about, again, present moment awareness, rather than being taken and caught by what are largely sort of fears of the future and what's really going to happen.
Speaker 2:And I think this is almost you know, this is the almost like the meta skill, if you like, of people in pressure.
Speaker 2:But again, it's, you know, there's a performance psychologist I listened a lot to. I was in a sort of some years ago and as I was talking to him, it's this challenge between doing and being, and I've said this to many groups and I get this sort of perplexed look off people where they think I'm going to go straight into Buddhist talk or whatever it is, and you get all sort of woo-woo on them. But it's the same thing I've just been really saying. You know, there's a it's we're taught in our society to to do, do, do, do, do to, to do more of um, to do more, to be more in and that, and that I think is very toxic overall, not only to people's ability to access the best of themselves from a performance standpoint, but also to be congruent with them at their best and to be in states of well-being the best and and to to be in states of well-being and, um, yeah, because I guess that looks like different things for different people at different times.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, you know it's. You know it's not cookie, cookie cooker could, can't say it, cookie cutter. Uh, approach, approach it where it's like you need to do this, this and this. And you know, when people sort of say, it drives me to say sometimes, when people say, do the work, and it's like people go, well, what's the work, it's like well, it isn't that.
Speaker 2:You know your own self-discovery, it's not my. You know you work with some people sometimes and you feel like it's almost like they're doing your effect. It's not my job to understand you. It's your life's work. This is the way that I see it. It's your life's work to understand you. Now, if you, you know, for many people, if they don't want to do that, then that's their prerogative. And if they've got it all dialed in and they're happy days, then good luck to them and brilliant. But you know I suppose, speaking of the Buddha, you know talking about life is suffering. You know, I think that's not the experience of people. You know, and I'm talking about everybody from that perspective. You know they are struggling and trying to manage and you know there's lots of reasons for that in society and so on. I mean, I could get off on tangents, having rages about what you know the way it sets people up for some level of failure.
Speaker 2:It sets people up for some level of failure. But yeah, I do think you know that people have to do their or be willing to sort of step into that themselves. And you know, when people are engaged that's like. You know, I really love doing that work when you're deep in the weeds with somebody and you know, and again that could be. You know, I really love doing that work when you're deep in the weeds with somebody and you know, and again that could be. You know, I used to do some really deep sessions with he's had to stop fighting at the moment but a guy that was like number 10 in the world in Brazilian jiu-jitsu and, you know, a really sort of thinker, and we used to get really into things, you know.
Speaker 1:But when you're with somebody like that, it's, it's very engaging, yeah, yeah, and, and for me, I think so my interpretation of doing the work then is is yeah, again.
Speaker 1:For me once, once upon a time, that would have been physical, to see what I can achieve, whereas now it's more shining that spotlight inward and going into the, into the, asking uncomfortable questions or being asked uncomfortable questions and being willing to answer them, and then feeling those, those emotions, talking about certain challenging situations or just the, the beliefs or the perspectives that we hold, and being willing to challenge them and taking action from that place. So, in terms of public speaking, for me I'm on the same page as you. It's something that I'm not keen on, but I'm learning about that, I'm learning about myself. So I can still feel all these things, but I'm still going to get up and speak, and it's about yeah, yeah for me, managing myself and my emotions, separating myself. So, irregardless of that, if that talk goes well or not physically doesn't change anything about me. There's that belief and awareness I'll, I'll be okay, I'll survive.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I get that completely mate, and I like to try and break things down because I love to go deep and talk about woo stuff as well. But I'd also like to make it practical and relatable for people that maybe aren't quite there yet.
Speaker 2:But are keen to change. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I totally agree with everything you've said there and you know, again, we're using the public speaking example. But you know, for me they're recogn, recognizing that there will be a switching on in those moments, like, for instance, you know, some of the fighters that I've worked with they're because those feelings of anxiety and this relates to anybody out there but because those feelings of anxiety are not nice feelings really, or feelings that people don't want, so what they they? They then want to feel, uh, calm or chilled, or you know something that's more pleasurable in in that moment.
Speaker 2:But actually the, you know, the real sort of change is is it's almost like not changing those feelings but about changing our relationship to those feelings, and that that is a pivotal and, without being hyperbolic, it's a paradigm shift in in the relationship towards, towards those feelings, um, and and I think you know the uh, you know so that maybe the in, the in, you know, if I'm, if I'm doing a talk, I know that there's going to be some switching on, some, some activation, um, and actually I, you know, I've got to a point now where you know that if I am in front of an audience and you know I can really it's almost like the arena now, you know, and I can really kind of like enjoy sometimes talking, you know, knowledge and information and sharing things with people and engaging with people, and I find that, you know, super engaging for myself, you know. So you can transition these things as well 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what one of my interesting reflections as well, which helped turn turn my perception around of of this. And again, let's use public speaking as the example was. Um, I was taught by my coach and like a lot of the times, that we judge how we feel on the inside and compare and assume how somebody else looks on the outside. So I might see you on stage looking calm, compare myself to feeling nervous and make lots of judgments and assumptions. And, yes, again, it's separation of that. So you know you're going to feel something and but you're separating yourself from that story. It doesn't mean anything, it's an acceptance. This is what it is. I can use this type of thing, yeah. So, yeah, I completely get that and that's for me.
Speaker 2:That's been really helpful yeah, yeah, yeah, great point as you, as you make it and absolutely, um, you know, we don't always portray on the outside, obviously, what what's really really going on on the inside sometimes. You know, I think people all fall foul of that. You know, I got taught meditation about 15 odd years ago and, going back to my sort of Katy Perry piece, we need to come on to that yeah she was, um, she, she had somebody fly in.
Speaker 2:Uh, we're on this like beautiful resort in bali, and somebody flew in and I was I've been sort of trying to do some sort of meditation pieces myself, um, you know diy and then this guy came in and I was like, oh, who's, who's this guy? And he was a guy called Bob Roth, who I've had on my podcast as well and he's head of something called the David Lynch Foundation in the States and this is TM or Transcendental Meditation, and he'd been flown in to teach her and a guest TM. And I sort of said, you know any chance I can jump on? And I did. And I sort of said, you know any chance I can jump on, and I did. And I was, like, you know, sort of sat there, sort of meditating with Katy Perry and Bob there and all the rest of it, and so it led to a daily practice of meditation and that for me has been a huge as much as going to the gym and training. But meditation is that formal time to you know to sit.
Speaker 2:And again, there's a lot of misconceptions. Um, I was asked, not that I'm a meditation teacher, but I've been asked to teach meditation a couple of times. And you know, and I went in with a guy, uh, just recently, um, and he's got a very high up position in a big corporate company and this corporate company had instigated a meditation program. So I asked him about you know what's? What do you know about meditation? What are you taking away? What's happening?
Speaker 2:And just about everything he said was like well, wrong, to put it bluntly. Yeah, was, was, was completely wrong and and it was. And I thought, jesus, you know, there's, there's people that are that little knowledge thing again, but there's people that are now trying to practice meditation based on what they're being told here, and that's never going to help themmer or a practice to be calmer, but actually it's a practice to be present and and I struggled with this for years but to actually feel what you can. You can feel whether that is, uh, some sort of um emotion that you know that you don't really welcome, ie, maybe anxiety or maybe frustration or tension, or you know, and bob would say, if you know, whatever comes up in the meditation comes up in the meditation is fine, and that really, again, is about changing that relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would make In terms of some of the athletes that you've worked with and the businessmen that you've worked with. When they're under pressure, how do you help them get the best out of themselves, especially under pressure?
Speaker 2:I would say it's very nuanced to the person themselves is the sort of start point. But you know, I must admit it surprises me because you know, again I'll go to a. I was working with a guy called Angel Fernandez. He was coached by Anthony Joshua for a bit and this was in Loughborough University. I was working with some of the boxer guys there, you know.
Speaker 2:You know I said to one of the guys who I think is fighting for a world title this year, but I'm like you know, on fight night, how much of it is mental and unequivocally, without hesitation 90 percent, 90 without hesitation. And yet the, the focus is almost 100 percent on, you know, the, the technical, tactical and physical aspects of of that. You know, get them dialed in. But on on, you know, on the night, on the night, uh, you know, and I sort of cringe, I've seen anth've seen Anthony Joshua coming out and he's got, like you know, motivational slogans on the wall and I'm thinking that's the limit of. You know, if that's the approach, then you're way off for me in in those pressure moments. So it's really getting to know, getting to know the person, getting to understand. You know, one of the first sort of questions really for me would be talk to me about when you're at your best. Um, you know and that is maybe a stop point you know what, what are you, what are you like at your best. You know what what's taking place. It might be an example of that. I'm thinking of a guy in football and he's like that. He goes yeah, the game just slowed down, it just felt it slowed down, and his experience on so many occasions was a racing of what was taking place. And so you know, that's a specific example that then he could start to then sort of build on.
Speaker 2:But you know, the surprising piece as well is, you know elite athletes again in football, for example. You know they could describe sort of being two, three minutes into the game and oh, it's going to be one of them. Games Like it's some, like they've got no control in that. It's going to be one of those. It's one of those games where it's just I've made a bad tackle, I've made a bad pass, and this is you know, we're talking Premier League, we're not able to recover from that, and so that's. You know, it's quite shocking to me sometimes when you see that and what difference that can really make. If the head's gone, then the other stuff's going to unravel really quick. You know all the tactical, all the awareness of the tactical piece. You know the skills that they've got are going to start closing down really because they're unable to get past that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I guess that's almost infectious as well, isn't it sometimes, especially in the team?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, yeah, I mean it's. You know that again, it's that it can go one of two ways, can't it? You know where? It's like somebody in the team like puts in that tackle or whatever, and everyone's like boom, and it's like it changes the energy of individuals. And again, going on to you know, again from psychology, what I'm wanting to get and what people don't realize is that it's physical first and foremost, because that's about the. We've all experienced the physiology and change within the body that's taking place when we're engaged in something or when we disengage. It's not just something that's floating around in the head, it's, uh, you know, it's. We really feel that, um, but yeah, getting them, you know, as a team and as a collective.
Speaker 2:I did notice, you know, years ago. Um, it didn't come to any further work, but I went in to see, uh, lester tigers at the time the time Steve Borthwick was the manager and they were instigating when a try had been scored against them. They were unable to refocus in that moment and so they would be shipping more points afterwards, and so they sort of instigated this. We'll do two breaths as a collective group to bring ourselves back into the present and in theory, they were on the right track. It was just that the application you know I saw was sort of missing. So you'd see these guys get into a great big huddle and they'd be like pissed off that a try has just been scored against them. You know six by eight and he's like taking his scored against him. You know six foot eight and he's like taking taking his two breaths. You know, and uh, yeah, fascinating seeing people work.
Speaker 1:Yeah brilliant, but I guess it's a step in in the right direction, though, isn't it? It would take time and practice, and and sometimes taking these new concepts and and asking people to run with them when they're not their own can take even longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and in this context it's like, again, it's forging resilience, as it's called there. You don't get to have it at that point unless you've sort of built it up and taking that as the specific example of what we're saying, there is, you know, doing no breathing work, in this case away from the arena, but then expecting to sort of come in and in the moment that's like the real, the shits it in the fan. To do a couple of breaths is a bit flawed really. It's not going to happen, or very rarely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but there's the phrase then do the work. In this case, yeah, before you need it isn't it yeah, yeah. Before you need it, practice. I'm going to start to have to wrap up now, mate, yes, mate, yeah, yeah, it's been absolutely brilliant to have you on. Is there anything you want to leave us with mate in terms of where we might find you? Projects that you're working on?
Speaker 2:email address in case people want to get in touch. Um, yeah, well, you probably know from me I'm pretty shocking, mate, as we've spoken about on on social media. Um is, you know I I don't go too much on social media but I would say, uh, linkedin, um, my, you know the the work or man on a Mission M-A-N-N is my surname, man on a Mission, the man on a Mission podcast as well the website, and then also you know direct emails if people are, you know, either LinkedIn or sometimes on Twitter, but direct email, richard at man on a Mission, again, m-a-n-n. Dot U-K.
Speaker 1:Awesome, mate. Well, we'll pop that in the notes, but, mate, thanks again for spending some time with us and sharing your insight and knowledge there. Mate, it's been fascinating to chat and, yeah, we'll catch up again soon.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mate, loved it, great to connect.