Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
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Forging Resilience
39 Oli France: "You can be ½ way around the world and stuck in your own head."
Join us as we welcome Oli France, an international adventurer and founder of the Wild Edge.
Oli shares how pushing personal boundaries in remote locations fosters not only physical transformation but profound self-exploration. He uncovers the thrill of high-intensity environments and how they've sharpened his problem-solving skills, offering an inspiring perspective on the balance between mindset, logistics, and personal growth.
Imagine traversing the snowy peaks of Northern Iraq amid minefields and militia, a journey Oli embarked upon as part of an ambitious expedition to conquer the Kurdish region's highest peak.
From the solitude of long-distance biking to the inspiration drawn from an 85-year-old adventurer chasing his dreams, Oli's tales remind us of the joys and challenges of an adventurous life.
Upcoming projects, like the Ultimate 7, promise more excitement as Oli balances career ambitions with the demands of personal life. As we share in these riveting experiences, we're left with a powerful reminder to pursue big dreams and live life to the fullest.
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Welcome to Forging Resilience. Exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership, Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today, on Forging Resilience, I have the pleasure of sitting in front of Oli France, an international adventurer, keynote speaker, founder of the Wild Edge, which is a company that guides teams through the world's wildest places. Oli, welcome to the show, mate.
Speaker 2:A big thanks for having me Really looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 1:Likewise, mate, before we dive into who you are and what you get up to, I think, as a father of two young kids who's constantly dragging them out on adventures, it sounds like you've got the ultimate job, mate, and I've seen some of those videos and experiences. Yeah, how do you get into adventuring as a career mate? Good on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, thank you, and it's not. You know it's not something you're going to get told about in the careers office in school, is it? No, but for me me, it was. You know, I grew up in a northern town, northern england, um fairly ordinary background, playing lots of sports, rugby league and football, and um, it was at the age of 17 I went rock climbing for the first time and, having spent my childhood looking out the window wanting to be outside, being told no a lot, now I'm told, go and climb up this dangerous rock face and it was just something really exciting about that.
Speaker 2:Very, very quickly and off the back of that one experience, at the age of 17, I decided to sign up to this outdoor leadership degree course. That was kind of my pathway in and, I think, the biggest thing there is. Now I'm in this environment and I think it's this thing of environmental change. I'm in this environment surrounded by peers, surrounded by leaders, surrounded by teachers and mentors. I'm learning about this world of adventure, exploration, travel and, of course, the practical things behind that how to plan an expedition, how to fundraise, how to lead teams, how to navigate bureaucracies, all of these things from quite a young age, and so that was the real that set the scene for my career, and each year that went by and that's 15 years ago now that I started that career I've just found myself on a journey, going deeper and deeper into this world of adventure, pushing boundaries and taking it as far as I possibly can yeah, I love that mate, I mean so let's go straight in then.
Speaker 1:So what does deeper into adventure mean to you?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I think adventure you know it's interesting this, because so often we hear in this world of adventure, let's go and conquer mount, or people go and conquer mountains. For me that's not. That never resonates. I don't think mountains are there to be conquered and in a sense it's an inward journey as much as it is an outward journey. I'd often say that if we conquer anything, it's something within ourselves, and so much of it has been about self-exploration as well as physical exploration of the world and in a sense, it's also been pushing my boundaries in terms of the expeditions that I'm taking on, taking on things which are more and more logistically complex, more physically difficult, emotionally difficult and, I suppose, taking things to the absolute limit of what I think is possible.
Speaker 1:um, in my own unique way, yeah I love that, mate, um, so I guess the to crudely put it is that it's the, it's being in an environment that tests your mindset and and there's an also a logistical and logical element to that as well. Bearing that in mind, the mindset to logistics, do you have to go sometimes to extreme environments to be able to tap into those things to learn about yourself, or can you find adventure closer to home?
Speaker 2:I think you can find adventure closer to home, absolutely, and I think adventure is a very personal thing to everybody. Everybody's got their own relationship to adventure. So what is, you know, a huge adventure to one person, could be very easy to another or completely terrifying to another. And so we've all got this personal dynamic and it also evolves over time. So certainly, you know, as I look back to my early years, the Lake District, north Wales, scotland, these were my training grounds and you know, I will, even to this day say you can face some of the harshest conditions on planet Earth in Scotland, on the Cairngorm Plateau, for instance, in the middle of winter.
Speaker 2:And so certainly adventures can be found closer to home. But I think, through that evolution, as we learn and evolve and and stretch our own boundaries, inevitably, if we need to, if we want to continue delving deeper, you know going into new unknowns. That then involves going out to, to remoter, hostile, more hostile, more wild places, for me at least, and and, by the way, there's nothing wrong with staying in that comfort zone and and and, you know, going on different trajectories, but that's just the itch that I've had through the years that that's driven me what might be one of the one or two biggest things you've learned about your yourself in terms of self-exploration, regardless of where it was, or the the physical challenge or extreme environment.
Speaker 1:Ollie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good question. I think one thing that I've learned is regarding intensity. In a sense, and if you were to ask this question of my close friends and family, they will probably say you know, I like a fairly high level of intensity. I don't rest and relax. Well, I imagine a lot of your guests will be similar on that kind of spectrum of intensity, and so I feel at my best in high intensity environments when my mind is being challenged to problem solve and to make decisions and to try and move forward.
Speaker 2:So, but I think you know one of the great lessons, which I think is related to that, that I was given from a young age, I met this French mountain guide and he was giving us some skills on alpinism and we were out in the french alps, crossing these technical ridges, and one thing he talked about was trying to be like a metronome.
Speaker 2:So a metronome is this device which is constantly going, click, click, click. It's perpetual motion, it's constant, it's consistent, and I and he talked about operating in this way, like a metronome, with this perpetual motion, and that's kind of always stuck with me. And so, yes, that can slow, that can speed up, but I'm always trying to look forward, I'm always trying to think multiple steps ahead. I think that's also a consequence of leading expeditions where now you've got 10 or 15 people under your watch, you're taking them doing something highly uncomfortable, highly uncertain for them, um, there are. That then introduces many, many more variables to think about, and so you've got to be planning ahead, thinking ahead and really tapping into that internal metronome. So I think that's one feature in my mind that that have I've discovered and thought about a lot over the last 15 years so?
Speaker 1:so what I'm hearing then, if I understand this rightly, is that metramone to you is that continuous gentle stepping forward rather than stopping. It's one small action, it's another small action, and in certain cases it's quite a few ahead because of the responsibility of leaving leading people, and that's the way your mind works. Have I heard that right?
Speaker 2:yes, yes and yeah, and I think there's a a misconception. I mean to go go further into this. I think there's generally a misconception that to make changes in our life requires huge leaps of faith. You know, big steps into the unknown. You know, maybe occasionally that's necessary. I think this idea or this principle of the metronome is that actually it's those steady, consistent, disciplined, small incremental steps that are far more meaningful and effective for long-term change and long-term steps towards success, and so that's what I've tried.
Speaker 1:I think it's summarized perfectly by expeditions, because you're doing thousands and thousands of steps, you're covering huge distances over multiple weeks and months sometimes, and um and so that that analogy, I think, really rings true how do you manage to stay ahead of that curve then, when, when you're leading people and all their own expectations, um, challenges, um, and the environment plus yourself, and how do you manage to stay ahead of the curve or to the rhythm of the metronome?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this is something I've thought about a lot and in a sense I've had to develop a bit of a strategy to make sure I can stay ahead, and I'm always thinking so. You know, first of all, that comes long before the expedition even begins, and, and the first step to that for me is building my, my awareness of what it is we're going to go and do. So, building that real deep knowledge and understanding of what we're trying to do. What are the many ways in which we could fail? I almost try and become a student of failure. This is how I look at it.
Speaker 2:So if I'm going climbing a particular mountain, I'll go as far as researching all the accidents and even fatalities that have happened there. Where are the accident hotspots? Why have things gone wrong? What can I do to avoid that? So that's building the background knowledge, having then plans built around that, just from a practical sense contingency plans, plan b's, evacuation plans, medical plans, etc. Um, and then it's when you're actually there, in, in, in, in the, in the thick of it, on leading expedition. It's keeping those things in mind.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think you know certainly somebody from from your own background you'll probably have an appreciation of this is having this almost sensitivity of what's happening right now around you, almost a hypersensitivity, an alertness, you know, thinking about the consequences of your actions and what they could be positive or negative. What are the consequences of any given decision, positive or negative? What are the consequences of any given decision? And I think that the final piece there is having adaptability built into your plans. These are complex logistical expeditions that we're taking on sometimes. Yes, you can plan, yes, you can think about everything, but when you're there, sometimes the most unpredictable things happen. And that's where having a final element of adaptability. So I think, to summarize, that it's having awareness, having anticipation for the things that could go wrong and then having an adaptability to evolve plans in real time.
Speaker 1:Love that Cheers. Mate. Could you give us an example, or something that sticks out in your mind, of a time where you've done all the things that you needed to, in terms of having the awareness, you put the plans in and you've got the adaptability, or a time where you have had to adapt to a situation?
Speaker 2:absolutely. Yeah, I mean there are many, but that stands out which I put a lot of time into and this was a very ambitious project. This was back in 2018. I was going out to northern Iraq for the first time leading a group and over the course of the next few years I wanted to develop a really ambitious expedition to northern Iraq.
Speaker 2:In Kurdish region You've got very big snowy mountains on the Iranian border. I wanted to go and organize and lead an expedition to the highest mountain in Iraq. In Kurdish region, you've got very big snowy mountains on the Iranian border. I wanted to go and organize and lead an expedition to the highest mountain in Iraq. This is not something that people normally do. You've got minefields there. You've got militia groups. It's near the sensitive border area, so there's lots of things that could go wrong. So I went and wrecked it on my own. So I thought if I'm going to take a group out there, I need to have a great awareness and understanding of, built some local contacts. You know, essentially established contact with the best mountain guide in the country, went and recce'd the route figuring, even obtained some old Russian maps which had documented the minefields on the mountain. You could navigate around those climbed the mountain, success and figured out you know what it takes to make this expedition possible Marketed the trip.
Speaker 2:A year later, returned with a team Now, you know, 18 months has gone into this whole project got a team together, they paid money to be there, you know, trusting me to deliver on this expedition and everything. Yeah, I felt like everything was covered from a risk perspective, from a communications, emergency perspective. But there was one thing which was beyond my control, which is the final slope up towards the summit. And and that because of my, I suppose, training in in understanding avalanche risks, I knew that that was a potential avalanche risk because of the uh, the angle of the slope, the elevation of the slope, uh, the curvature of the slope, etc. And that was the only route at the summit. So if the snow conditions weren't favorable, I knew that all of this work could have gone towards ultimately not being able to succeed.
Speaker 2:And we got up there. We've been trekking for several days, fully self-supported, carrying heavy loads through deep snow. We're the only people on the mountain. You know, this is pure, pure adventure. And we get up there at last, after four or five days and hit the final slope.
Speaker 2:All the way along, I've been testing the snow, I've been building avalanche pits, I've been describing to the team what it is that I was doing, um, almost bringing them into my decision making, so that they had a deeper understanding of what's going through my mind. And then we get up to the final slope. I'm already thinking the conditions aren't ideal, because what you had essentially was in the layers of the snow. On the top you had this wind slab which is really hard almost like granite would be the analogy and then below that you have something called graupel, which is like little ball bearings, so it's like granite on top of ball bearings, and that just splits and shears off in huge masses of snow and ice, even in isolated areas, and this extended way up the slope. So it's an absolute recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2:And but, of course, on the other part of my mind, you know, or what could have influenced my decision making in a negative way, is all of these people have flown out halfway around the world to be there. They've paid good money, they've trusted me to get them to the top. Um, and you know, there's this expectation that we'll be able to summit, but I know that it will be dangerous to do so and and so, ultimately, we we did have to adapt. I had to make that decision to to turn back and you know, having reflected on it over the last few years and spoken to other guides, I'm absolutely certain that it was the right decision. And so we had to bail off the mountain and we couldn't succeed with summiting.
Speaker 2:But you know, from a long term perspective, I built great relationships with that team. They've joined me on future expeditions with that team. They've joined me on future expeditions. Um, in short term I back, I went to a contingency plan and we went and explored another area of the mountains and still had a, you know, an amazing trip. Um, but that was a time where I had to adapt and and you know, these are the big decisions really, because if I'd have made the wrong call there, the situation could have been very, very grave for all of us yeah, no, I bet so.
Speaker 1:Do you have a rough framework that you go to then for making decisions under pressure in tough environments? Because I I can hear the weight of I don't know if balancing is the right word, but I'll use it. No right or wrong here, but yeah, keeping in consideration that the pressure to keep this group alive, but also their probably anticipation and need and desire to get to the top. So is there certain things that you can do or that you talk about or teach, especially given your talks in terms of making tough decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind is something which I try and put across to all of the teams I work with, particularly on expeditions, also in talks, and I've guided people from all walks of life, some of them very, very successful, even billionaires, ceos, industry-leading business figures, ex-cia officers, worked with special forces. And one of the things I'll say before we even step foot on the mountain, is to leave the egos behind. So it doesn't matter to me who's sat in front of me. I will say that because once you're up against the forces of Mother Nature in a mountain environment, the human ego is powerless against avalanches, earthquakes, rockfalls, you name it any matter of things that can happen. Falls, you name it, you know, any matter of things that can happen. So I try and separate this sense of ego and, in a way, emotion, from decision making on the mountain. The other thing I'll do is I'll have our priorities straight right from the start, and one of the things I make crystal clear is that priority number one on any expedition is getting everyone home safely. Priority number two is summiting the mountain, which people often get the wrong way around, and that's when you hear of, you know, this thing of summit fever, where people are so invested in it and they've spent all this money and they go on to the summit, to their own demise often. So, having that framework of OK, the number one priority is our safety. That then filters down through every decision.
Speaker 2:So when it comes to those critical decisions, I'm coming back to this framework and I think the final thing that I use in the heat of the moment is when I'm making a big decision. I think about the fact that every decision has got you've got to consider the past, present and future. This is what I'm thinking. So, past is that background knowledge. You know all of that planning. Everything you know about the area where you are Present is what mood is your team in right now? What's the morale, what's the level of energy? What mood is your team in right now? What's the morale, what's the level of energy? And then, thinking about the future, what are the consequences? Good or bad, depending on your decisions and this is a one-time thing don't which aren't based on ego and emotion, but are based on logic and region, um, to make decisions, uh, which meet the ultimate goal of your own safety, so you can have a lifetime of adventures yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting, and I guess what you've said there as well is that you're constantly running through that yourself, because it goes back to that almost like trying to fail. So you, you've been running through those constant things of separation from the emotion, knowing where your priorities are and thinking past, present and future before you even stepped on the mountain, so that it's not so long to take the decision.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, yeah, even to the point where I will think about these key areas in my mind of I know this is going to be a decision point on the mountain. You know it might be a dangerous ridge, it might be an avalanche risk on a particular slope and you know, through visualization almost, I'm thinking about what I will be thinking, doing in that situation, so that when I'm actually there in the moment it somehow feels familiar. I think that's the power of visualization. It's something we hear a lot about now and it's hard to recreate those moments unless you spend every day of every year in the mountains. But what you can do is mentally rehearse, visualize, make those decisions, think about the rationale behind it and then in the moment you're much, much more able to to make the big calls you.
Speaker 1:You talk about um risk management. You gave a talk on that at TEDx Bristol, about risk management. What's maybe some of the surprising things that you've learned about risk management or that people hear when you talk about risk management, mate?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean my talk was almost initially a counterintuitive view of risk, which is the thing that we often don't consider, is the risk of not taking action is the other way you could describe that is the opportunity cost, and so often I think we we fret and we worry about what's going to happen if we make big decisions and bold life changes, but the thing we don't consider is the risk of carrying on as we are and the opportunities we could be missing out on. So I think that's kind of the counter view of risk that I think about. What else is it about risk that I think people miss? I think, ultimately, navigating risk is about making decisions.
Speaker 2:When I think about all of the high performers that I've worked with over the years successful people from all walks of life One trait that I've really noticed, which I think filters down to this idea of risk, is they're very fast at making decisions. They don't wait around, you know, they commit to a decision and I think so often what I've seen in business worlds in particular is that there's a fear of making big decisions and there are endless meetings and there's procrastination and they're fearful of you know, of these imaginary risks, or you know that they spend so long dwelling on these potential problems that nobody makes a decision and they're not moving forward. Making a decision even when you're not presented with any good options options, at least, that's forward momentum you can see if that's going to work and actually commit to it. So you know, does that relate to risk? I think so, because ultimately, navigating risk is all about making those good, proactive decisions yeah, the the sort of insights that you're talking about, mate.
Speaker 1:Do those come to you when you're on the mountains, or do you take a lot of time to reflect and let them bubble up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I suppose I've been so immersed in this world of expeditions now for the last 15 years and there are some really intense periods where I might be doing 12 to 15 expeditions a year, and I'd be going to Syria one month, I'd be going to Somalia the next, and so I found myself for long periods really immersed in this world where I am having to lead, I'm having to make these decisions, I'm having to think about risk, I'm having to develop strategies to almost make my life easier as well.
Speaker 2:When, know, when we're working, we're doing sort of actual work on a laptop, say, we try and figure out systems and processes to make our lives easier. In a sense, I've had to do the same thing to make my life easier doing my job. So, yeah, it's been a gradual, iterative process. You know, sometimes you have a spark of an idea and you remember it, and of learning from others. I've had the opportunity to work with all kinds of individuals from all kinds of backgrounds and I've kind of cherry-picked things that I've liked from different worlds and tried to bring that into what I do as well.
Speaker 1:You touched on something there about being a good leader, of which you are, but what, in your mind, makes a good leader and who do you look up to, or looked up to to, as a bit of a mentor or a guide to learn and copy from?
Speaker 2:I think, first of all, the leader needs to have a very clear vision of what they're trying to achieve and be able to really bring people on board with that vision quite easily, and you know whether that's through storytelling, whether that's through their actions they need, because, ultimately, leadership is about taking a team from point A to point B, isn't it? You know whatever it is you're trying to achieve, and so the lead has got to galvanize that team and get them to see the light at the end of the tunnel, get them to see that vision and focus on it and have that as the absolute driving force. So a focus on vision, I think, is important. I think the other important thing is really understanding what's motivating the individuals in your team, and not seeing them as kind of cogs in a machine, but human beings, which they are, who each have their own lives, their own fears, their own doubts, their own hopes, dreams, loved ones, et cetera, who all have their own deep, burning desire, which is probably different amongst each of them, each person, and I think what I always try and do is really get a good understanding of what it is that's really motivating somebody to to be there, taking on what, whatever it is we're trying to achieve, because I I think the reason that's so important is when you're going through something really hard together, tapping into that deep internal motivator is far more powerful to give you.
Speaker 2:To give you a an example of that you know, I've had people climbing mountains with me. They've lost a parent recently or something they've lost a loved one, and they're doing it for them. And you can bet, if you're a few hundred meters from the summit and they're suffering like never before in your life and their life, but you remind them of what it is they're doing it for. That will energize them and get them onto the summit. Now, what I say to one person might be different to what I say to another, but if I don't really deeply understand what's motivating people, it's going to be. Yeah, very, very difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, ollie. Um yeah, who's somebody you've looked up to then as as a leader and being able to emulate on your career and journey, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good question. I mean, what one was? I talked about playing a lot of sport when I was younger and this definitely had a lasting impact on me and we had, you know, for context, we had a very, very good rugby league team at school. We were reaching the national final, playing at the Millennium Stadium, and throughout my sort of school years formative years really I'm playing sport five or six times a week, competitive sport. 90% of the time we're winning.
Speaker 2:I happen to be part of really good teams with really good coaches, and so I think I was fortunate to have this very clear idea of what high performance means. And I remember certain days we'd get back from a match and we might have won 3-0 and we're celebrating in the dressing room and then the manager comes in and he's kind of, he tells us off because it should have been 6 or 7-0. And so it's almost from that young age. It's not being complacent, it's always pushing and striving for more and seeing that, in a way, the limitations we place on ourselves are constricting and it's we who can challenge them. So you know that these names probably wouldn't mean anything to you, but you know Manny, my own, my old football coach he was. He was incredible mentor, very, very strong leader set very high standards of us.
Speaker 2:There's something called the Pygmalion effect, which is this idea amongst leaders that if you set high expectations amongst your team, they will rise to meet those expectations. I think that's true. I think it's the job of the leader to set those standards. You know, if you communicate to your team often enough that you are a world-class team doing world-class things, they're going to start to believe it. You know, I'm sure that's a tactic used in the special forces, for instance, um, and it's creating that narrative that people can buy into and latch on to and that everybody knows that this is the standard that you operate at. Those those are the people who inspired me. Another one was Sean Wayne. He was coaching us in rugby for a short time. He's now the head coach at England's rugby and one of the most successful sports coaches in the UK. Very, very fortunate to be coached by him from a young age Demands high performance and doesn't settle for anything less.
Speaker 1:Great Cheers. Cheers, mate. And I want to circle back to risk and home. Has your appetite for risk changed over the years, as you've matured and as life happens, be that kids or relationships or parents?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm curious to that, that side of it, mate, and how that that is panning out for you yeah, absolutely it has, and certainly you know anyone any parents out there will will know that when you have children, your um perception of risk definitely changes. It was, it was the same for me, you, I think for most people that would be the case, and so that didn't mean, though, that I was going to stop doing hard things and taking on expeditions, because this is my purpose in life. I feel this is my absolute passion, my driving force, the thing that excites me and makes me the best version of myself, but what it did do is make me take an even deeper study of of the risks that I'm taking, go even further into the planning, make sure that I'm holding myself accountable to the highest possible standards of safety, um, because anything less than that would be recklessness, and and so I, you know, I I feel I cannot afford to be reckless, because it's more than just me. Now I've got family to look after.
Speaker 2:Certainly, when I look back at my younger years, there was definitely one period I'd finished university, done a year of traveling, ended up in the corporate world for a couple of years, absolutely hated it to such an extent I was a shell of myself was, you know, unrecognizable from the person I am today really, um, you could, you could say, you know, I was close to being depressed or not, that I ever went and saw him. But I was in this deep, dark place and, um, and eventually rallied myself, quit the job and embarked on this big four-month expedition all the way across Asia on my own in winter. And there were definitely moments there where I was being very reckless, I was taking big risks and partly, you know, that was because I didn't value my life as much. You know, I wanted the thrill, I wanted that excitement. I didn't really care about the consequences. Um, you know now I do care about the consequences and I think very deeply about about mitigating risks as much as possible yeah.
Speaker 1:How do you then balance that, or how do you get that need for excitement and thrill and still manage to justify that to yourself and probably your partner as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's funny. I often people like myself, and, again, I'm sure, lots of people you've had on this I, I've always had this, or for a long time I've had this sense that for something to be worthwhile you almost need to suffer, like it needs to hurt, almost type type two fun, you know, um, but actually I'm seeing more and more that type one fun is okay too, you know, we can seek that out, pure, pure sort of untainted fun without the burden of suffering, and so actually that's something which I'm craving more and more. That's something which I'm doing with my family, and now, you know, I get so much joy from taking my little ones to, you know, up to the Lake District and going paddle boarding or going up a hill or whatever it might be. And so, yeah, I've seen that.
Speaker 2:You know, I've definitely encountered a lot of people who've continued with that reckless streak and they're no longer here because they don't last very long in in the world of the mountains. And and so I, I saw that I had to evolve and now, having children, I had to change my mindset. And there was a climber I forget his name off the top of my head, but he, he, he talks about trying to find joy in the valleys as much as the mountains, um, you know, which is, I think, a metaphor for life itself. It's easy to find joy in the extremes, isn't it, and the really exciting moments, but to find joys in the ordinary and the everyday, I think that's the ultimate goal and that's something I'm, you know, still striving towards, but getting better as well yeah, aren't we all welcome to the club, mate?
Speaker 1:and for what you're saying there speaks to me about being present, regardless of whether at the top of the mountain or the bottom of valley, and I guess it goes back to what you're talking about earlier is your own ability to adapt now that your responsibilities and and yeah outlook on life has changed, especially having having kids make I'm going back to your not most recent, because I know you've just come back from kilimanjaro, which, which is a pretty cool story as well, but I'm really interested to hear about Death Valley to Denali. Am I pronouncing that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:And the Ultimate Seven Give us a little overview about that, mate, and some of the challenges. In fact, let me just tell you as well, it's one of those things that I've spent a little bit of time away from home, both in the military and when I was working overseas a lot, and it reminded me a tiny bit of that that my day-to-day was very routine, um, and you know, it would be quite a few days where I didn't see any updates from yourself in your cycling kit and then suddenly you're wearing waterproofs and it started to rain and get colder and colder and it was just, it's just ironic. It reminded me of that time that, yeah, you're very different, very something for here. It was really routine for me and you were there going through completely different environments and challenges along that journey. That that you you got to do there, mate. But yeah, give us a little oversight of death valley to denali in the ultimate seven projects, mate I appreciate that and appreciate you following along.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed sort of sharing the story. Um, so this, this project, I think to preface it all along, all throughout these expeditions, I've had this bucket list of kind of ultimate expeditions, and over time some of them would ebb away and I'd lose interest or I'd think it's too dangerous, too risky. But some of them just stuck, and this project was one that always stuck, and whenever I had chance or free time I'd think about it, I'd plan towards it, but never really talk about it. You know, it's not something I share publicly and so it is. What I'm talking about is something I named the Ultimate 7 Project, which is, in my view, a the biggest, boldest challenge I could think of. Really, that is just about possible but never being done. And so the idea is seven separate expeditions on each of the seven continents, journeying by human power alone, from the lowest point in the continent to the highest. Nobody's done that. It's a multi-year project. All seven have their own logistical complexities, and, and so I decided eventually, 18 months ago, to launch this project. Felt quite scary to put that out in the world, because then there's a certain accountability, but I think that's a good thing sometimes, and and actually through announcing our goals, we can give ourselves a kick up the backside. So I announced it and then last summer I did the Africa leg, which was, yeah, successful but challenging in parts, very, very hot. I had some hostility, cycling through Ethiopia, but ultimately succeeded.
Speaker 2:And then this, this year, I wanted to take on the North America leg, which would always be one of the most challenging, which might surprise people because you know, you think North America, you think well, it's Western country, highly developed, good infrastructure, et cetera. But actually once you're way up north in northern Canada, alaska, and into the mountains there, it's extremely wild, extremely inhospitable, very remote, with lots of dangers. And so, yeah, to very quickly run you over what that looks like, it's a three-stage journey from Death Valley in California to Denali in Alaska, three and a half thousand miles, which is the same distance as London to Dubai or London to Washington DC in the opposite direction. The first phase would be a solo cycle from from down there in California all the way up to Alaska, fully self-supported, carrying all my own gear, just at the start of spring, coming into the middle of spring, where it was just on the edge of being possible to pass these mountain roads and the Yukon. Once I reached the base of the mountain, 99% of teams fly directly into denali base camp by a ski plane.
Speaker 2:For us to do it human powered, uh, with this small team that I'd assembled, um, we needed to basically ski into base camp, which nobody does.
Speaker 2:My best source of information was 20 years ago, um, and that involved an eight-day ski, carrying all of our gear in heavy packs and sleds, crossing rivers in bear country, traversing crevasses, avalanches, coming down near us, small foothills just to reach base camp. We didn't see any of the humans, and at the end of that then you've got to climb the mountain, which is colder, windier, stormier than Everest. Last year, of all the people who attempted it, only 30% had succeeded, and so, overall, looking at this whole project, many people who attempted it, only 30% had succeeded, and so, overall, looking at this whole project, many people have tried it, but nobody in 25 years has succeeded with what I was trying to take on, and so the logistical complexities of pulling up this all together in a narrow timeframe, pushing hard every single day, with many risks along the way and lots of uncertainty, would be, yeah, very, very challenging, and so that's the background for the project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's an incredible achievement, mate. Yeah, it's hard to comprehend, despite the videos, despite the reports and the photos, but it's incredible, mate. It's very inspiring. Thank you. I'm curious to know where your mind goes, especially on the bike leg, on those long, straight roads, um, where maybe it's not that risky in terms of well, the only real risk I think you you're talking about is potentially the drivers, um. But yeah, where does where does your mind go when you start to suffer there and you're not having to constantly calculate risk?
Speaker 2:yeah, it, it's interesting and it in a sense I often say that on these solo expeditions you can travel halfway around the world, but you end up spending most of your time in your own head I love that.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant yeah, which is exactly the same for me, and you know it seems bizarre to say it, but you can even on your own, and I was having one, maybe two human interactions a day and I'm sat on the bike for 8, 10, 12 hours a day. So that's a long time in your own head, um, and you can experience every emotion. I was experiencing every emotion on that, which might sound surprising, but you can have, you know, absolute pits of misery and questioning every decision you've ever made, your life choices, essentially in a deep, dark place, knowing it's weeks till you see family again, absolutely suffering physically. You know, ligaments on my body are swollen and heart's struggling to walk Don't even get me started on my backside, you know. And so you go from these lows, lows, but then also you do get these massive highs and you get these great. You know. You hit the top of a mountain pass in the Yukon and you've got bison and moose and grizzlies and wolf prince and, um, amazing mountains in every direction just while you're there what's the?
Speaker 2:emotion that comes to you when you describe that mate absolute freedom and absolute joy and the pinnacle of, of why we do adventure, yeah, yeah, euphoria, I suppose you could say, without, without the, without the need for drugs or anything yeah, yeah, which which I guess again for me, I, seeing it through my lens, is being present to what's around us, recognizing the, the beauty, the danger, the hostility, the vulnerability, whatever word you want to throw in there.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and, and I think the other, the other part of it is it's definitely present, present, um, but it's also a sense of having worked for it, the physical struggle, and I think if we get things too easily do we value them Not really. If we've had to really work for something, really push ourselves to the limits, and then eventually we succeed and we get that view, we get to the summit, whatever it is, then it's a much deeper euphoria, satisfaction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that Doing the work. Yeah, completely agree. What's the next trip in terms of the Ultimate 7M8 and that project from lowest to highest?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the next one is South America, so now just about three months away from that. So that's going to be a 1600 mile cycle through Argentina, starting near Patagonia and then ultimately finishing up on the Chilean border with a big mountain called Aconcagua, which is 6,900 meters. So it's a big, windy mountain. It's not as technically difficult as denali, uh, but still, with its elevation, remoteness, winds, etc. It will be a real challenge. Um, but yeah, that's going to be january.
Speaker 1:really excited for that one nice one, mate, but what might be on your bucket list that you'd be happy to share with us, ollie, given that you don't often?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, definitely, you know, the big focus is the ultimate seven, that there's still several years left of that. We've got the south america leg, um, but beyond that you've got some huge challenges. The asia leg is is dead sea to everest. So that is essentially. You know. You're going four and a half thousand miles right the way across asia, uh, through nine different countries, some pretty tricky places as well from a security point of view. You've got the Antarctica leg, very, very complex, more expensive, cold, challenging, and the Oceania leg, which is kind of everybody forgets about that, but that's going to be very logistically complex and it'll involve some water crossings as well. And so that's kind of the the immediate focus for the coming years, I think.
Speaker 2:Beyond that, certainly, one thing I have dedicated myself to is traveling as much as possible. I'd love to see as many countries around the world as I possibly can and not just go and tick them off, but have real experiences there, um, and so, yeah, I'm up to about 75 countries or so. It's still a long way to go, but that's somewhere down the bucket list. You know, I'd love to, I'd love to visit every country on earth if I, if I can make it that happen still time.
Speaker 2:You're only a whippersnapper, mate, I can see, yeah, it might be all that fresh air, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, what's a, what's a a downside to you, mate, not being able to get out and experience, yeah, thrill of adventure or that sort of euphoria. What's the price you and your loved ones have to live with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think anything ultimately involves sacrifice. Anything in life, with every decision there's going to be a sacrifice, and whether that's doing an ordinary day job, you know, that would come with sacrifice as well. But for me it is time away from family, and that is challenging for me and definitely my wife and and wider family who then have to pull together, um, and so that's yeah, that that's difficult to navigate, but certainly since having children, I've really taken conscious steps to focus on real big projects. And you know, strange as it sounds to say, this is my career. You know, I built this career in this world of adventure and expeditions and so I want to excel at my career. I want to do a good job. I want to try and build and grow job.
Speaker 2:I want to try and build and grow, um, and I also know that I am the best version of myself, having spent time in that corporate world to be in this deep, deep, dark pit, um, I know that I'm my best version of myself when I'm like this and and you know, yes, I'm away, but the beauty of what I do is when I get home for a few months at a time, you know, I can be really present, I can enjoy those ordinary things and it's the ordinary things I crave. Actually. It's going to the park with my kids, it's, you know, having having picnics. It's all those things that I crave, brilliant mate ollie, listen.
Speaker 1:I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you today, mate, and before we wrap up, is there anything you want to mention or you feel like you'd like to talk about before we start to finish?
Speaker 2:yeah, I appreciate that. Um, yeah, it's been a been a great conversation, um, I think, yeah, first of all, please do come and follow along. You know, this is just the beginning of of a multi-year project which is only going to get bigger, bolder, more challenging and, you know, maybe because I'm not too interested in talking more about myself, but I think one thing I always like to mention is you talked about who inspires me, so maybe a nice way to wrap up would be sharing a very quick story of a guy who's one of the most inspirational people I've met, who I've learned a lot from, and we talked about being present. Well, this was an 85-year-old guy who I took on an expedition, on a trip to Iraq. That was less of a technical, difficult expedition, but I took him to Iraq. He wanted to visit every country.
Speaker 2:He was 85. He had terminal cancer, he had a pacemaker in his heart, he had a stoma in his stomach and months to live, and he was selling off his life possessions to visit the last remaining countries in the world. And everything on paper says this should be the most miserable guy on planet earth, but he was by far the happiest. By far the happiest. He was living and breathing every moment, every single second, and I spent a week in this guy's company and it that served as a huge reminder to me that we only get one go at this thing called life. So why not grab hold of it, seize every second like this this guy was doing um and really make you know, go for those big goals and big dreams, because nobody else is going to do it for us. Um, so, hey, well, maybe we'll wrap up with that inspirational story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds absolutely perfect, mate. And what a way to to end our chat, mate. Well, again, thanks for making the time and effort to speak to me today. Mate, keep on doing what you're doing. I love your thought provoking work and and the way that you managed to describe and talk about it. So, um, yeah, thanks, ollie. I'll put the links to to you in the show notes and, um, I'll look forward to watching and learning from your from your next expedition and adventure, buddy awesome top man.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate your time and the interview and, uh, let's keep in touch, buddy definitely cheers pal.