Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
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Forging Resilience
52 Joe Bates: "People assume because of what we have done, that you can’t ever show weakness..."
Discover the powerful journey of Joe Bates, who takes us from his early life in Devon through the challenges of losing his father to illness, then into the rigours of military life as a Royal Marine, before navigating the trials of the corporate world.
This episode of Forging Resilience explores themes of grief, trauma, and personal transformation, offering deep insights into how these experiences shaped Joe’s character and led him to a rewarding career in branding and wellness.
Joe candidly shares the challenges of coping with loss, the importance of vulnerability, and the healing power of kindness. With authenticity, he emphasizes that struggles can lead to profound personal growth and encourage others to embrace their journeys. He believes that real change comes through embracing one’s truth, being open to transformation, and importantly, extending kindness to oneself and others.
In a world where mental health is often overlooked, Joe's message rings true: change will come, and kindness is a universal language that can bridge the gaps of understanding and healing.
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Welcome to Forging Resilience, exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership. Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today, on Forging Resilience, I'm joined by Joe Bates, who's a former Royal Marine, uk Special First Special Forces. Bates, who's a former royal marine, uh, uk special first special forces. He's transitioned into finance and the corporate life before um in going into branding but having uh fucking, that's bollocks, getting tongue-tied. But yeah, transitioned to finance corporate life, including the branding company, before launching his health and wellness company haylenen Massive douchebag, massive douchebag, which basically they ride horses naked.
Speaker 2:We're recording Joe. Welcome to the show, mate. Thanks, buddy. Thanks, good to be on, good to see you. We haven't caught up in a long time, so this is going to be lovely.
Speaker 1:It's been a while, hasn't it? It's been a while it's quite a few times we've tried to arrange this, but obviously the stars have aligned today, mate, so it's great to have you here, joe.
Speaker 2:Give us a bit of your background, mate, and we'll dive in from there kind of laugh, you know, because you, you, we, the fields that we're in, and you know I do quite a bit of public speaking and and and and other pods and things like that. So you kind of you tell your story a lot, don't you? I know you've obviously told your story a lot. And, um, you kind of you, sometimes it can, it can be easy just to go on autoplay. So I'm not going to go on autoplay, I'm just going to try and just like not tell it in a different way, but just organically and authentically tell you it without me, kind of without the little person in my head going play. Oh, here we go again, when I was 16. So here we go, not on autoplay.
Speaker 2:Um so grew up in devon. Youngest of three, my mom was a psychologist, an educational psychologist. My dad was involved in the arts funding. Um worked for camelot, if you remember that, the national lottery kind of. He did different things but ended up doing that.
Speaker 2:Um, lovely, lovely, lovely childhood. Uh, just look back on memories of sunshine in devon and BMXing and being on the moors. Yeah, I loved it. I'm very blessed to have had such a loving family, amazing parents, amazing brother and sister. I was a teenager. My brother was at uni doing ancient history at Durham and my dad got really poorly. He got really sick. I didn't know at the time. I just remember my mum saying that dad had to go for tests. I think I look back and I remember him acting kind of different and a bit odd, saying strange things and being a bit embarrassing. I think that was the main thing that I remember. Dad was just a bit embarrassing and would say really random shit in front of people at dinners and stuff and he developed something called. It turns out he had something called Pick's disease, which is the most severe form of alzheimer's. Um, I say that like not absolutely knowing that, but it pretty much is. You know up there with one of the most severe forms, so highly aggressive um, very, very quick how it comes on. Um, so within a within a few um years, he was really not in a good way and then had to be put into a home. I think he was and again, I always say this on every single Podemon or talk like.
Speaker 2:I never know dates and ages. Do you know what I mean, ron? I always go. I think he was like 40, mid 40s, but I need to know that, but let's assume he was mid 40s, but I need to know that. But let's assume he was mid forties.
Speaker 2:I was obviously like GCSE kind of level age, going through secondary school, and I just, yeah, I just remember mum, like you know, mum bringing me up at home, dad being in this home, but I didn't really understand, I just knew it was like a medical center, um, in a place called launceston, and mum having to drive and see him all the time, having no idea of, like you know, I think, my diary's busy and I whinge about having to like, do school runs and stuff.
Speaker 2:My mum was, oh my god, you know, single parenting, the love of her life. Such husband was severely mentally um, mentally sick and poorly and she was having to drive hours to see him um and and and drive me around with school and stuff. So, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? When you get older, you look, I think, when you, when you do it yourself, you look back and you, um, you appreciate how much people have done for you, and it's only, it's only until you're older to do that um, and then, really, sadly, he, he passed, when I was, I think, again like a levels maybe just doing my a levels, um, finally, 17 18 yeah, exactly, yeah, 17, 18, um.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I remember mum sitting down at those three major bits with dad being really ill and and passing that I remember one was when mum sat us down in the front room and basically said he was really really poorly and not gonna make it like, and I didn't really understand, I didn't really. You know, you're 16, you're still a kid, but you you're a young adult. But when I look back and I remember not really it, it's not like we had Google then, it's not like I would go on track GPT and research picks and things. I just I didn't, I just took mum said that he had this disease, that um or condition maybe disease is a kind of a horrible way to say it but so I remember, not really know, but I, I think I, I walked out of the house that day. I think I walked out of the house that day. I think I got on my mountain bike and just cry. I think I, I think I rode somewhere and just had a big cry, um, but again it's all a blur, ron, like I can't. There's a huge amount of trauma that went on there for those years and like there's a huge amount that was is. I've got blackout from it and then um and then um.
Speaker 2:Next thing I remember is the funeral and I remember, uh, dad was like you know, dad was the biggest fan of dad rock, like all we listened to was like steely, down at lin and skinner. And I remember playing a free bird or we played free bird um at his funeral. It was stunning, like the organs in that track, if anyone knows it, by lininda skinhead, and I remember that my sister's son bridge over troubled water by sam mcgarth on call, and that was like wow, powerful and brutal, right, um, seeing that she held it together was just amazing, like those guys are so strong. And, um, I was okay, I was. When I say I was okay, what my definition of okay was?
Speaker 2:Not crying, which is a really weird thing to say, but I remember putting him in the ground, um, or people putting him in the ground and me watching him in the coffin in the ground in devon on the local churchyard, and then everyone walked away and my mum's friend, everyone. I think I was just there kind of by myself or just a few people there, and my mom's friend put her hand on my shoulder and just went are you okay? And I just lost it, like just lost it. You know, um, you know the thought of your dad. You know, I'm the youngest, I'm the youngest right. I had an amazing relationship with him.
Speaker 2:I was obviously, obviously the naughtiest one the, the black sheep, and that's kind of carried on through my adult life. Um, and he was a bit naughty, so I think we had a lovely bond and um, and I just lost it and that was that. So I went from not really knowing what I wanted to do. I mean, I did photography at school at a level I didn't really know. I was a very creative person. But when that period, when dad was really sick, I think, I looked for escapism and I wanted to get away from it all.
Speaker 2:And a dear friend of mine called orlando, who sadly isn't with us anymore, that's a whole nother story. Um, he was joining the marines, the war marines, as an officer. So I, you know my grandfather, was in the armies in the second or an artillery spotter, but I had no affiliation with it. You know, I was not the kid that went to cadets and rolled around in the mud, but I I kind of went, fuck it, I wanted something really hard. I think I walked in well, you know these, these, the way it works very well but I think I walked into a careers office, going in wanting to be a fast jet pilot and then very quickly walked out, having signed up for the war marines. Um, there was a bootneck who was in there. I remember, big tash, old school falklands looking guy, lovely guy, actually quite senior I think it was. I think he was a color sergeant and um, anyway, he was just cool and we had a great time and I ended up joining the marines and then obviously being a devon lad.
Speaker 2:It was just my doorstep, dartmoor. You know, I lived on dartmoor. The village I grew up on my whole life was the edge of, they call it the gateway to dartmoor. So what's? The village called morton hamstead. So down near chagford, yeah, like it is literally. You know, look out of our, my bedroom window and you see the moors. Um, which I think really helped for me in basic trailing when you had like scousers and lads from leeds that were like freaking out when they saw a car, a cow on the moor and I was just like I knew the names of them but they're my local farmers. Uh, yeah, I think. I think it does make a massive difference, doesn't it? The environment you're used to and the hardness of it and that kind of stuff. But, yeah, basic training, I remember being so nervous. I've always struggled with nerves actually Less so in my adult life.
Speaker 1:But I remember that period in my life when I was younger, feeling physically sick, quite do you know what I I'm just gonna gently interrupt you there and I said I, I I would question that. I think. I think a lot of people do, but not everybody talks about it. Yeah, maybe some, some people do and some people don't. Others don't want to recognize it. Because I felt the same mate for the for the first few weeks in the induction block. I yeah, it was like sunday evening type pre-anticipation of monday morning blues, when you know, I mean when you haven't done your homework. But every single day for the first couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:I remember mom, you know, like getting on the train it's like so ridiculous. I got on, you know mom dropped me to me to the very first, the infamous famous train journey that arrives at Limston. I got, you know I was. I lived like 25 minutes from Exeter, so mum drove me to Exeter. I got on the train knowing that it's like two stops to Limston, so it's a whole level of head fuckery for me.
Speaker 2:It's like it's like signing, like basic training, it's like your next door neighbor. So it was kind of weird. But I remember being so nervous and, like you said, just the you're kind of it's a kind of it's a bit timeless in a weird way. Time stops when you're basic training, doesn't it think of that induction block and the and the shiny floor and the light and the hours, obviously that you're just doing shit. There isn't really time, is there? It's just one non-stop blob of adrenaline. I think you're just constantly pumped for the cortisol because you're just like dreading it. But I, um, yeah, I, and talking about nerves, um, I struggle to eat quite often in because I was nervous and there were guys you know you go to breakfast and you'd be sat there with guys like piles, remember, on piles of food and I was always like I just couldn't do it. I'd eat. Of course I was eating, but that was I, just um, I remember it hit my gut a bit. I I struggled to because of the nerves, but um, yeah, I just found my way with basic training.
Speaker 2:I, I, um, got a massive rag. I got I was on section commander's warning on my very first exercise, which I never forget by a guy called tom francis who badged, uh, for the sbs. Um, he put me on, he was the. He was obviously the officer, the troop boss, and I thought I was really smart because on there's a first exercise called first step, which any more marines will know very well, basically like boot net, camping 101 and um, and I thought and I'm sure I'm sure there is a recruit that does this on every exercise I thought that if I didn't use my little hexi stove that's the cooking stove I didn't light it and I didn't have to clean it.
Speaker 2:I thought that was very smart. I thought I could just eat the rations and not. Anyway, that didn't work out well and I did not think about that one. So when they came around the morning they checked my stove and it was clean, as like a guardsman's freaking belt and um, and I got ragged and then put on section commander's warning and I was was just like, oh my God, it just makes me laugh thinking about that. And then just I started just to kind of do okay in it. I love the camaraderie with the guys from all walks of life, you know, from up north to you know, like I said, the jocks, an irish guy on there, just amazing camaraderie. It just makes me laugh, thinking about actually and I'm still slightly in touch I'm definitely due a reunion. I haven't haven't seen any of them really since I've left the core before sf, um, but just funny, funny, funny moments. But you're, but you're just a walking tired entity, aren't you? You're just a little naive thing that just runs around.
Speaker 1:Joe, can I ask you a quick question, mate? Obviously, the illness of your dad and the death happened at quite a pivotal moment. Were you able to block that out? Not that I'm suggesting that's maybe the most sustainable thing to do, but was? Was that just blotched aside for you, mate, and all the way through training, or did was? Was there moments when, when you were able to sort of reflect or think?
Speaker 2:I think I think I blocked it out. I think I still block it out. I think I blocked it out for a good 20 years. If I'm honest, I'm only actually starting to really and I'm still at the tip of the iceberg. I haven't gone deep on it yet and it's something that a bit like I need to know my dates. I keep saying I'm going to do, but life takes over and I haven't.
Speaker 2:But no, I didn't think about it at all. I didn't think about it at all. I didn't think about it at all. I think it's my blessing and my curse. Like what happened with dad.
Speaker 2:It drew, it's given me so much drive, yeah, um, and so much like there is nothing impossible, like whatever I kind of decide to put my name to, I tend to go for it and and do okay, I'm not saying, um, I can become an astronaut if I want to, but that's just the way I roll and that's really driven, I think, from running away from that trauma from dad. Um, the downside of that is it can create, and had created, negative traits, things like walking away from problems, like there's a flip side to that that I've I've started through my adult life to pick up on to watch, to check, as you do, ron, you know that some of the things that we should do, um, and and just manage and be aware of, and witness and observe them. So, yeah, it was so. To answer your question in a simple way, no, not one part of me was thinking about it and I found basic training easy is the wrong term because you, ron, you've been through it yourself.
Speaker 2:It's not easy, but I didn't find it physically hard, mentally I didn't find it hard. I found it a challenge, of course, but I kind of ended up. It was random. I ended up, not random that sounds a silly way to explain it, but I ended up being a section commander and then a diamond, which is a kind of Ron. How would you explain the diamond Before I explain it Ron?
Speaker 1:Mini promotion. Isn't it a mini promotion?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly, and then I got. Then I got the king's badge, um, which is the best recruit which is yeah, which is the best recruit um, and all just a bit, all just kind of organically.
Speaker 2:I didn't really want it, wasn't like I was hunting for it, I wasn't like, like I said, I wasn't reading army books and jane books and rolling around the mud as a nipper. I just ended up figuring out that if I did what they said and was quite good with people and quite, and you know, tried to be a good team leader and be thoughtful, um, that would that worked and that was really it. And then went straight to 40 commando. Uh, in taunton, good old sunshine 40. I remember being dropped off again by my, by my mom and um and my stepdad and um, yeah, it was like a sunny day being that's like a whole nother bit. Isn't it going to like your first commando unit and it being really cool? And then we I picked as the king's badge, you can pick where you go, uh, so I picked 40 because they were going straight to iraq. Um, which to some people sounds nuts, but I think to anyone, one cut from our cloth gets up. Um, it's like, yeah, send me to war. And uh ended up, uh, on pre-deployment training for arc. And then obviously one of the first things they have to make sure you can do is shoot straight. That helps in our job. And I and I had, um, like a rifle test with the unit and I think I dropped as in only missed like a couple of shots, whatever, I probably overread that, I probably missed like a mag, but um, it was something like that, it sounds good and and he's and the sergeant major was like right, I'm loading you straight on the snipers course because we need more snipers. So, which was really lucky to go straight on a sniper's course straight out of training, which is pretty cool. You know, the raw marine snipers course, as you well know, is regarded as one of the best in the world.
Speaker 2:And there was a guy from your ugly mob, there was a sass guy on it, uh, and I just remember just he was just cool big south african chap and he was just a bit cool. He was classic sas like massive lamb chop sideburns, big guy, and I and I you know he would do like shadow drills with his pistol in the mirror, like genuinely he's probably taking the piss. But I remember like, oh my god, that's funny, no, ron, genuinely he was. I remember him doing that, but he was yeah, he's called chris and um, and it just resonated with me. It wasn't that resonated with me. And then I remember seeing I think uh, the sf thing kind of went in my head as well. I think I saw there was a poster somewhere in on the limston camp of the old combat swimmer coming out the water with a demarco m4 and I was like, yes, I want some of that shit. It was just cool, it was just very cool, and so that was ingrained in me then that was my kind of next step.
Speaker 2:And also when I, when I got the king's badge, comrade thorpe, who was a colonel in the special special forces, special boat service, gave me my beret, he gave him my, the whole troop of green berries. And I remember him saying you know, what do you want to do? He's like congratulations on the king's badge, what you want to do? And I looked up at him. He's a barrel of a kenyan. Do you remember him, comrade? I don't make no.
Speaker 2:Fine, monstrous guy, kenyan, like as deep as he is, wide, like barrel, like amazing guy, pretty much, took like background airport, single-handedly, just like serious, mental, mental, mental. Um, and he looked at me and said what do you want to do? And I said I'd quite like to have a go at what you've done. I'd quite like to have a go at special forces, and he said marine baits in a thick kenyan accent, which I'm not going to do. He said marine baits. There are some men that look at mountains, or, and there are some men that climb them. He said climb your mountain, like that. And I was like, wow, that's fucking no fear, t-shirt, shit, right there. Um, so went to iraq, came back from iraq uh, bajra, usual kind of things we did out there, and then was that, was that quite a an interesting deployment joe, was it quite quite?
Speaker 2:it was uh, it was. It wasn't overly hostile, there weren't dust-ups. You know italic four at that point, so it was just lower level stuff, but it was still super interesting, right, I loved it. I loved the heat, I loved the training, hated fitness tests on the runway. They're just absolutely minging, aren't they? What's the wrong? What's the fitness test you do when you run a mile and a half and run back?
Speaker 1:uh, I want to say bpt if I'm off. That's, that's not right. Is it basic fitness?
Speaker 2:bft, there's a basic fitness test in the military where you run a mile and a half out as a group and it's as fast as you can, mile and a half back and and like no matter how fit you are and like every single person in the military just dreads them because everyone knows it's just hideous and it's specifically on a hot runway where you're just running in a straight line anyway. So a bit of that, but I loved it. Just got on the protein op massive, just train hard and worked and yeah, it was my first deployment. I think I was 18, I think 18, something like that. Came back um and then which, and then put my name down to go on um sf selection, went down to pool, did the aptitude, found it really cool and interesting and kind of enjoyed it. I was on such a, I was fit. Then I was fit, fit, fit, and I think that I've always been pretty blessed. Maybe it's because of my limbs, I don't know, just anatomically, biomechanically, whatever. I sounded quite smart then, right, like the look of my body composition, that I've always been able to carry quite big loads, but like open my legs up, which you know and I know helps on things like the hills and weight carrying and you know, stepping up steps, like in in the breckens you know what I mean like you can, just if you've got longer gait and you can use them, it can be quite useful. Um, so that was it. Went on.
Speaker 2:Selection went through selection. I remember the same issues with my stomach on the hills phase sat in like um in the cookhouse slash galley, depending where you're from, like where you have your morning breakfast, where you get fed, and seeing all these paras like just eating, like, like, like like kings off game of thrones, dribbling and pouring, was like horrible. And I remember going, oh my god, I can't fucking eat, I'm just not, I'm just not hungry, knowing, and um, but but yeah, I mean, you know, you, the selection hasn't changed since it started and I I hope it doesn't really change. I think every person goes through the same sees, the same things the strong falling quickly, the weak that you never expected getting stronger, all the classic stories that we know about Selection and why it works and the funny moments. So I went through Selection and kind of loved it.
Speaker 2:I think I really, really um, in terms of escapism, you know, ron, think about the trees getting in your. You know your bed at night and you cop better than getting up when it's dark and trying to find your way to a century point and just like it's, just like hilarious, isn't it? But just pure escapism. Yeah, um, which I loved, and and, um, and, and did that, and passed, passed sf. I think I went on at 19 and bashed at 20 and and did that and passed passed sf.
Speaker 2:I think I went on at 19 and badged at 20. I might. It's really quite young, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. I think so, um you know guys by general standards.
Speaker 2:Not that it's right or wrong, but yeah yeah, exactly, it's semi-young and I think I think I was old for my age because of dad's death. I think I definitely was just um, not wise. I wasn't wise, I wasn't like you know, I wasn't yoda by any means at all. I think I just was, um, I think I was just slightly stiller and probably still in shock, which made me seem a bit older. Maybe I'm just trying to like, I'm just trying to like figure out why I seemed older.
Speaker 2:Um, I then went to uh, x squadron, uh, special boat service at paul and just had the best, like three, four years ever there. You know, I just best memories, good tours, the two tours of afghan with x squadron, and it was just cool, mate. You know the score. It was just, I was 20 years old, growing a beard, you know, in kandahar, great ops, amazing operators and just the trips in between it was. It was the big boys club, right, it was the coolest boys club ever, that young.
Speaker 2:You know, my friends some of my friends were, some of my friends haven't, hadn't even started uni and I was like hanging out at the back of blackhawks, blackhawks and and listening to acdc or wham I'm joking, um, and I just loved it, just absolutely loved it and team was wicked and, and then left and then, um, you know, I decided, I think, because I kind of because of dad's death, I wouldn't say fell into the military, but it was an unusual route for me to do. I definitely felt different to the rest of the office, to the rest well, not to all of them to, so I would say to the majority of them. I was just conscious that it wasn't my calling. I loved it and it was. You know, like I said, it was like playing for the best team in the world. Right, it's like playing for real madrid or whatever, I hate to say city, because that would annoy people. But you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean, it was quite a quick decision to leave then, joe was it yeah, I think it started to res, I think it started to kind of vibrate around my head, I think after like my first tour. I think I think it was when I did one rotation of counter-terrorism tours. Um, can you, in continuation training, and then, knowing that was the way that we rolled, and then thinking wait a minute, I've got like 20 years of these rotations to push, and I think I just kind of went, my logic was, I may as well go now. You know, is it right or is it wrong? Whatever, we make our own decisions and I, I, you, I, I trust in that it was the right decision. I don't think there is a right and wrong decision. Um, so I so I left and I'd actually handed in my notice when I was on my last tour, as in before. So that last tour was kind of cool because, again, training hard, good ops, knowing you're leaving, I never forget, mate, this is quite funny.
Speaker 2:You know, my mum's always been very sensible, which I need to learn a thousand times percent to be more like her very issued, very sensible and um, and I mean, when I was joining marine she was so nervous and when I was on op she never slept. Um, and I remember speaking to her on you know, since leaving and, and, and she just yeah, she's kind of horrendous when I was out there at the worry. And I remember speaking to her on you know, since leaving and, and she just yeah, she found it horrendous when I was out there at the worry. And I never forget when I phoned her up I think it was like a sunday in paul, where I was based in in the espers, and I said, um, mom, I'm probably going to leave, and she and she was like darling you, uh, are you sure that's a good decision? And I was like fucking hell, like wait a minute, wait one minute. You want me to like hang out with grenades and and taliban insurgents? But uh, her point was rightly so. It's like what are you going to do next? And I didn't know. And I had no, I had no idea.
Speaker 2:I knew that guys went on the circuit and did bodyguarding and had good money. I I had this calling almost to go up to london. A lot of my friends were living in london, they were traders, and I saw this what I thought was a cool lifestyle of champagne and lamborghinis and going out and getting upside down, and um, so I left and did that. I went and rented a house with some friends in battersea and um started taking exams to become a trader. There was a gap in between that where I bodyguarded an ultra high net worth an American chap just doing some super yacht security. He made a lot of his money on Wall Street and I obviously thought I wanted that kind of lifestyle. So I took my exams and um knocked on door of a load of the banks goldman's credit, swiss they all told me to fuck off, uh. But city bank amazingly were and maybe stupidly no, I hope not said right, if you can come in, if you can pass the grad scheme, you're in. So that was it.
Speaker 2:Next gaunt, next test, next selection, and worked my ass off and ended up passing that and I just this is quite an important bit to note of my kind of story I was sat there on I'll never forget it and it was like I remember it being warm and I was studying for, like, the banking exams and I was going into Canary Wharf and for, you know, like to be taught the stuff. And I remember going home and studying and a dear friend that owned a big security company phoned me up and his business partner, my best friend that I joined the Marines with, that guy called Orlando, grew up together in Devon, joined the Marines the same day. He was the officer, I was a grunt, my friend Peach. He said if you spoke to Orlando, he's been in a plane crash. And I was like what do you mean? I spoke to him this morning, I was training that morning and about to see him in a gym, and me and him were like WhatsAppping back and forward like thick as thieves, like thick as steve's, like thick as steve's right, basically, brothers. You know he had like christmas with us and, um, I was so confused. He said, mate, you need to get in a car and get your ass down now to dorset. So he jumped in the car, drove down and like macked him and, um, it turns out he'd been in a in a uh, tiger moth with a friend of ours who he worked with and they'd done a loop and got into a spin and then crashed from a loop, the loop, and just spanked in and um, I remember arriving at the hospital and and Orlando's mom turned up and it was just hell, man, it was absolutely hell, and we basically had to switch him off there and then, yeah, really, really brutal, brutal point, that from you know losing dad to then losing him. And yeah, I remember you know this is really weird, but I think it's one thing. I remember. You know this is really weird, but I think it's one thing. I always. This is one thing that resonated with me through that experience is when someone dies, the again.
Speaker 2:I talked about how time stopped in basic training, but when you're in that shock, I remember me and Peachy David. Yeah, david, peach. We just sat in his house and it was like, do you remember the old Apple TV screen savers with the animals? I remember it just like rotating, just drinking tea and just being like in there for hours, just not really doing anything. And I remember like time just stops, doesn't it? There's just like it stops and you're just so, such a weird feeling where you're so numb and, um, everyone is so numb and you can't really connect because everyone's having their own trauma and it's just this weird, weird experience. And I remember bouts of emotion hitting me like being being numb and then walking outside and just bawling and having to like go into a corner in his driveway and just crying my eyes out and then coming back in and then that's going on and on and on mental time and, um, yeah, it was really, really sad.
Speaker 2:He was very, very, very talented, super young, but one of those things, one of those things that happened, so big thoughts to him and actually right now, um, so ended up becoming a banker. I say banker, I was by no means a banker, god. I checked myself there right away. I ended up becoming a sales trader and the guys were amazing, you know, they were so cool, they supported me, the team around me, the bosses, everything they were wicked, but I just I wanted to love it. You know, I was given this amazing opportunity that people die that don't die for, but it's, you know, it's to work in tier one banks. It's a, it's a good job, you paid very well and but I just hate, I just, I just hated it. It was just the complete opposite of me and I think the stress that caused was mind-blowing.
Speaker 2:When you try and make a human or an animal do something it really really doesn't do from like a or doesn't want to do, like a spiritual level whether that's locking up a wild animal, I suppose, or or forcing someone to do, I mean yeah, or someone hiding secrets in their life and living a different life? I don't know, but I just, I just was. I was just super, super unhappy because I knew I would never get it. And I knew, no matter the matter and you know, matter how much time I put into trying to get it, it was not something I could do and I just didn't see the matrix. I would hear guys walking in on a Monday morning talking about stocks and bonds and shit that was going on with companies, and I remember trying to read the FT and company information, as in internal sales, information about what's going on the markets, and it just like, no matter how much I read it right slowly, like, like, like, like five-year-old level of slowness, trying to get this in my head, it just would not go in, it just would not sit in there. It was mental, um, and then because of that, I think, knowing that I was unhappy, um, and it just wasn't right, I was just going out more, I was drinking more, I was taking drugs, um, and just and just burning myself out, training, still hard, not looking after myself you know the hours are crazy doing those banks, um, but just just a bit soulless.
Speaker 2:And until I was at a wedding and my brother came up to me and this is one of those amazing moments in your life where it's a bit sliding doors, where it's someone that checks you and like it can change you, it can change your life. Just the right moment, the right thing, said the right person saying it, and he, he looked at me and he was like mate, you're okay? And I said, yeah, why? And I wasn't. I was like exhausted spiritually, right, um. And he said, um, I've just been like I don't know. He was like you just seem like you've lost your spark, like you're just not you anymore. You've just lost your spark. And and I was like shit. And then I just opened up and he knew he knew I wasn't that happy and sleep was getting affected and um, and that was it. I think I, I think I phoned up my boss at the bank on a Sunday and told him that I couldn't do any more and I was leaving and a huge amount of stress. Just with that, they'd kind of bent the rules slightly. They believed in me to get me in as this XSF guy.
Speaker 2:Ron, you know me and you have talked about this a lot before. There's the preconceptions of what guys like me and you can do is also quite big in this world. People assume because of what we've done in our lives you know special forces that that you have to constantly be hard as nails, tough, articulate, you know you can't ever show weakness and and that was a big thing for me to go to almost break cover and be like I'm not fucking strong here, like I can't do this, and and he took it so amazingly and was so supportive and and I left and and just felt amazing, mate, the minute I left I felt great, I felt I didn't know what next yeah didn't know what next, but I felt great yeah yeah, there's, there's so much there, mate, but what really strikes me is because there's, like you said, we've talked about these sorts of things quite a bit between ourselves is that, yeah, we can never get enough of what we don't need.
Speaker 1:That's what really struck me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you didn't, you didn't need that lifestyle or that bank at that time, hence the resistance that you're showing to it I guess it's part of part of it, as well as all the other things that you're carrying from, from some of the things you've mentioned and other things you probably haven't in between. Um, yeah, but I I think what, what's incredible about your story, joe, is the way that you've let's not say turn around, because there's no end point with with this. It's no, it's not a tick box, box exercise or destination type thing, but the way that you've been able to yeah, I mean, you'll probably touch on this now, but use your experiences and your struggles to to help other people, or at least create platforms for other people to to lean into those yeah, yeah, that's me.
Speaker 2:That's really kind. I think one thing that and I've talked about this quite a lot recently in social and just even when I'm talking to groups or individuals that I think to be truly, truly authentic and honest is the most important thing we can do in life. Let's be brutally honest and if people don't like that honesty I'm not saying outlandish views fine, you can, but you're going to upset some people, right? That's not my point. I mean honest to yourself about why you're doing something and don't try and behave in the way that you assume other people want you to. The reason I say that is um, I went after I went on, I left the bank, I went into branding, I lived all around the world in hong kong and all these things and I loved it. Um, living in hong kong. I mean, I could go on for hours about that period of my life, but I just I want to like brush over that. That Hong Kong was wicked, crazy. And then what's not in Sydney doing branding exercises, wouldn't it? With a really cool um branding agency, uh and a, and a chap who taught me everything in that space called john brash, big up to john um and decided I always, you know, working with startups and lots of different brands, right, lots of different stuff, brand strategy, how they communicate, what they look like, all that kind of stuff and always I went back to my creative roots, basically ron I, I, you know I loved photography, like still we talk about for your and for your listeners, but we talk about flow state quite a lot in like performance and what that looks like, and it doesn't just doesn't just mean people always assume it's like delta or seal team six like going through room clearances with their heart rate, like just boom, boom, boom, boom. Like like flow state is just. Again, I'm gonna talk. I keep maybe this is interesting I keep talking about time stopping, don't I? But flow state for me is literally when time stops, and there are certain things with photography that do that. Things like image searching, like if I go on getty or shutterstock or unsplash and I go down rabbit holes of looking at imagery this is really weird, but there's a point to this story like I can just be hours and hours and hours like finding and looking at different imagery, my body, it reacts so well to creative, to building stuff and design, like it's the complete polar opposite of trying to read about financial numbers and markets. That that's my point. So I all, so I.
Speaker 2:So I went in, found this thing called branding and just fell in love with it and just felt like I had found what I wanted to do. I just I loved it. It's psychology, it's human interaction, it's relationships, it's understanding CEOs and groups and businesses and then and then and then taking in what they do and then helping them articulate what their vision is and and I just I just absolutely loved it. You know, I'm really blessed I found it anyway. So when did that?
Speaker 2:For a good few years and always wanted to launch my own thing and do my own thing and apply that knowledge to it. So that was where I founded halen and halen's old english for hero, and we started off really as a, as a kind of let's, I'm gonna be, I'm not gonna, um, uh, I'm not gonna rebrand this or set it in this way. We were kind of a therapy platform. You know, I looked at the. This was just during covid. At the start of covid, I started to build it and we launched. I think we launched during covid um, um, remember that, remember that funny thing, covid, whatever. I think we launched during that and um, yeah, exactly um and uh yeah, it was an.
Speaker 2:It was an app and I saw the rise of peloton and even the rise of tiktok and the video interface and how people just started getting used to more video content and the traditional therapy platforms were very like find a therapist dot com and a bit shitty and a bit pixelated and I thought, wait a minute, we can just uplift this, we can kind of peloton a therapy platform of it had a uh, so so that was it, launched it, it was amazing, went really well, um, and then and then, over the course of five, five years, I've just constantly pivoted it. Um went from that to bringing on board, as you well know, ex-military. So almost utilizing um, the power of um, veteran stories to open up demographics that wouldn't traditionally want to speak to people under the brand of whether that's coaching, yeah, or therapy, or counseling, that kind of stuff, but really using the military as a bit of a trojan horse guys like, uh, the guys that you know that the app market um is, was, was, definitely was, and still is highly, highly saturated. Like it's bloody, bloody hard, yeah, easy to scale, like everyone immediately thinks about. Build a tech company and it can scale quickly, but it's so, so competitive. So therefore, use acquisition, trying to bring on board new customers is really hard, like people download an app, delete them within seconds, and that's even if you can get them to line them.
Speaker 2:So I missed. You know I'm a gut instinct guy, you know I think, well, again, that makes sense. The way I can't eat when I'm nervous, right, but I think I am, and um, and it just didn't quite feel right like trying to push this thing and it just felt a bit too hard working with consultants that were telling me how to figure out the matrix with algorithms and how we can acquire more customers. But well, if they were telling me that they would be billionaires. You know, it's that kind of thing like a lot of that, building these in the, in companies, when you're, when you're using agencies and things.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I digress, but I I trusted my gut and then naturally started to want to do more in person with people. Lockdown, lockdown lifted. A few years went forward and people wanted to do more experiential stuff. You know we saw that Holiday bookings went through the roof. People wanted to go and do more wellness activities. So we started running more retreats and some corporate work and doing things like that. Loved it, like absolutely loved it, and we're in the middle of a kind of pivot at the moment to do something, and I would love to come back on actually when we start to talk about that, if that makes sense yeah of course.
Speaker 2:So I'm so vague right now, that's so vague, but let's keep it vague. Um, it's just that it's business and it can be really, really tricky, and anyone that's listened to this that's a entrepreneur or runs a team entrepreneur sometimes can sound a bit wanky, but let's just say anyone that is involved in earning money.
Speaker 2:It's not simple. It really isn't simple, is it? And it's about. You know, I was, I was outside and back to the point about being honest and authentic. I was outside having a cigarette about um I don't know, a year ago with my beautiful fiance's um, cousin, half brother, family thicker steves, and he's a, he's a, he's done, he's doing amazingly now. But he's at multiple businesses and he was, and this one's taking off. It's going like gangbusters now, right, but it's. He's been on the roller coaster with different companies and different ideas and things for and and again.
Speaker 2:Back to my brother, brother's comment that resonated with me at that exact point. I stood outside with him. Maybe it was my mindset at that time. I felt a bit, maybe lost with what was going on with the company and and he and he simply said he's like you will not fail if you do not stop. He's like you will not fail, you will do it, just do not give up. And it's like, like, obviously we've heard that before, but it's all about the moment in which that is said to you for that to imprint in your brain and who's saying it to you and it just really imprints from me. So it's. We've got really exciting stuff ahead of us, um which I'd love to talk about what I can't, um which, yeah, I'm not gonna like stop talking, jay, stop talking, but I'm uh, but I'm really excited I think you know cheers for that man.
Speaker 1:you obviously you're welcome to come back on and and talk about that when you can nudge, nudge, wink, wink, but I, I think, I think, yeah, what comes to me there, mate, is, yeah, exactly, but also what we're making failure mean and again, we have talked about this what, what, what does it mean? Is it a failure or is it just a lesson to help us move forward? It doesn't mean it's always going to be easier or more palatable, but, yeah, we can learn to choose how we see that, taking those lessons experiences forward. Yeah, you've mentioned that yourself.
Speaker 2:You know, trying to crack the algorithm isn't something that was resonating with you, and so you've pivoted and used that experience to continue to, to try and bring a service to people that will help them well, and one, one thing that I really want to say on this, on this chat, which me and you've never talked about, is something that you live by and you, I think you definitely seeded some of this thinking I'm not going to give it all to you, by the way, I'm not going to say you did this to me, but you definitely, definitely seeded it which was things like when we started hanging out and working together back in the day and you would talk about how important your kids were and turning up for them and being a good dad and just being a good person. Right, just being a good person, right, just being a good person is so important, and I think I've done a lot of work on myself. You know I've been in this space now of helping others for five years, six years, and I think quite a lot of that. I haven't necessarily been true to that word. I've helped people on face value, but inside me, have I been balanced? Have I been grounded? Have I been truly doing it for the right reasons? No, like absolutely not. Have I treated people right? No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:And I think that I've really, over the course of six months, almost gone, stripped myself right back from working with an amazing guy who's a teacher in la, working with amazing, amazing, amazing man, um, and kind of readdressed everything about the way I've acted in the past, owned up to it, being honest with myself and what I want to do now. You know, like, how I want to act now and how I want to treat others and and um, things like you know, ron, you know this, but I've stopped drinking, and, and how much of an effect that's had on me, like I think that it's never, ever. In fact, I posted something today by jay aldous and I saw he wrote it and it was just. I thought it was bang it, bang on for my life. It's like the first 40 years of life are lessons and mistakes. Right, you know what I mean. Mistakes isn't the right word. Lessons, as you said, yeah, yeah, and then, and then the next 40 years is basically learning from them, putting them in place. Like you can't like 20s and 30s, you should fuck up. That's what you should be doing. You should be doing it right and but I've I've just had a the most beautiful journey over the last six months of slight tweaks, hard conversations, but slight tweaks in the way I roll and the way I act and what I want to do, and the effects have been massive, to the point where you know my family have noticed it um more than noticed it like they're.
Speaker 2:They're they're egging it on up in this way, um, and I suppose my point with this stuff is you can't force change, you can't suddenly go. I just need to be a better person. I do believe I'm. As I get older, I'm becoming more spiritual, not in a religious sense, but in like a universe sense, right, fate, things like that. I am starting to believe more in fate and things.
Speaker 2:Um, my point is you can't suddenly read a self-help book and be sat on the fence whether you want to change and then just change and it will work out. I think you have. There has to be a catalyst in a moment and it will come. It will come at some point, but you can't force it and you don't know when it's going to come. But when it does, and you do, innately 100 want to change your life. It's the most beautifully powerful experience that I want everyone to experience, if they can, at some point in their life. And I feel like that's what, um, I feel like that's what's happened to me over the last kind of six months. It's really interesting. Did I sound really really hippie then a little bit?
Speaker 1:a little bit, but you're talking to a hippie as well so it doesn't doesn't really matter, mate I love it and and yeah, for me, as I say in my coaching sessions, it doesn't have to make sense to me.
Speaker 1:If it makes sense to you, that's cool and that's what. This is an extension of those conversations. But, um, something my somebody really challenged me on recently which has really got my mind whirring, joe, and you're probably able to relate to this a little bit, is something along the lines of I'm going to slightly misquote, so I have to put this in the notes but along the lines of we've never, yes, along about being truly being able to serve others until we've healed or learned to see the wounds within ourself, you know. So, in my case, you know what my thing at the moment is creating space for impact and change. Well, there's probably two sides to that. I need, I'm creating that need for myself, but I see it in others, I think, which is a really interesting, oh gut kick challenge.
Speaker 2:That, yeah, that's something to gently rest my attention on over the next couple of days, weeks and months I, I love, I love it, and I think one of the most powerful things people can do in the right process, by the way, this isn't this, isn't just sit there now and write them down and then go oh, my god is is be very, very aware of what your negative traits are, and there's a process on how to deal with that, if that makes sense, and how to check them and be aware of them.
Speaker 2:But I'm talking like hardcore self-assessment of your own negative traits, right, whether it's jealousy, envy, um, um, different things like that, and I think we all have them within us and they creep back in very, very, very quickly. I I did it the other day, by the way. So I um run a group whatsapp and um, someone said something and I was just a bit like cringe and I messaged jody and said, oh god, can I just stop like and and and she simply put she just wrote back, just, she put be kind, you're supposed to be kind, and I was just like, wow, fair point. Like like, you know what I mean like it's so easy human instinct for stuff to creep back in.
Speaker 1:That's my point, yeah, but I I think there's a really good point in the mate, and that is we are human and and that that we continually learn these lessons. And and mine I get the impression is similar to yours that we're constantly trying to prove ourselves through the things we do. So if we, if we reach that standard, yeah great, we can feel good about ourselves. But it's never quite good enough. On to the next thing, and we have talked about that as as well. Um, joe, I noticed on social you're starting to do a lot more plodding around surrey in lycra. Can you talk us?
Speaker 2:a bit about six, six, sorry, buddy, let's go to that horrible hell not joking, I've been there with you before the borders.
Speaker 1:You're on the borders yeah, what's going on with you?
Speaker 2:you like me say it's my like. I'm actually lying here right now, or lying here, sat here, talking to you in lycra, uh, so I'm running. I'm running the marathon for um, for ifit, a company which is really cool, and they just ran this really wicked competition. I think we've got about eight to ten runners from america that have never ran the marathon before london and it was a competition and they had to send the videos of why they want to run it and they've all got amazing stories. So I'm coaching them through that um and then I'm going to run it with them.
Speaker 2:People are going to run their own times. You know, there was a point when I'm like I'm going to go sub three me and you've discussed this. I'm going to and like push people out the way and trying to like dip for the freaking finishing line. But I thought what a douchebag I am gonna plod it with with one of the team that want me to plot it with them and just enjoy it, like enjoy it. I ran it last year. It was amazing, um. It's a very, very special day, um, where you see humanity and kids and it's wicked. It's a really, really special day london marathon, um. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing um, but I need to run a bit more. If I'm honest, I'm not quite upping the distances, but I'm a big fan of being highly underprepared and just yeah, just a little bit, a little bit. I quite like the randomness of being slightly underprepared love it, mate.
Speaker 1:Love it, joe. Um, we'll start to wrap it up very shortly, mate, but I'm curious to know if there's one final message that you would leave any listeners if you were to partake or part. Yeah, give one piece of wisdom or insight for yourself or for other people the biggest life lesson you've had? What? What might that? What might that be?
Speaker 2:um, it would be, I suppose, a couple of things. One would be change will come. You can't force it. That's my point. There will be a moment and it will be profound when it comes, and I'm excited for you when it does. That sounds very, very vague, but I totally, totally believe it. It's a long life we have. We have many, many years, you know, no matter how old you are. In front of us it's a long, long, beautiful life we can live, and I think we're. We grew up in a society where you want things now and that's not the case. That's not. That's not true. That's not life, I think. Just know that it will come, and when it does come, it's even more special because you haven't planned it. So that's one thing that I, that I truly believe in.
Speaker 2:Um, and just be kind, just be kind. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say what jade said to me just be kind, just be nice, just be. You know, like you said, aaron, like you can, we, we have shit days, you can be a bit sometimes and and lose your temper every now and again. We're human, but like, just try and be kind if everyone's nice to each other. Like, being a shit bag isn't cool, being a kind looking shit bag is fucking quite cool. So just be kind, just just be a really beautifully kind person. Open doors for people. Um, you just never know who you're letting through that door in front of you and how that person might help your life. Not in a not in a capitalistic, um, commercial sense, just in a growth, human, energy sense.
Speaker 1:So just be kind love it mate, love it joe. Where might people be able to find you if they're interested in reaching out or finding out a bit more about what you've got going on?
Speaker 2:about mile 16, having cramp on the london streets in april. Now joking uh, they can find me on my instagram, as you know, um, which is joseph edward bates. Um, joseph edward bates. It's a long one. That right, I need to change my what's yours, ron, is yours like ron 88 or something?
Speaker 1:no hill erin 79 I have no idea why bang um and um.
Speaker 2:You never quite think about it, especially when you set them up in the old days. It's like when you have hot males like joe, big balls and like you know, but uh, yeah, find them that and um, mate, it's been wicked talking to you. I've actually really really obviously really enjoyed it and it's been nice. Love to you. I've actually really really obviously really enjoyed it and it's been nice love it, mate.
Speaker 1:Love it, joe. Thanks so much for taking some time to speak to us today, mate. Um, yeah, you're more than welcome to come back on the next time. Keep doing what you're doing, but keep shining the light, keep being kind to yourself so you can be kind to others. And, yeah, looking forward to speaking to you.
Speaker 2:Cheers, buddy thanks, mate bye. Thanks, mate Bye.