Forging Resilience

55 Kai-Nneka Townsend: "Burnout shouldn’t be the price you pay for success".

• Aaron Hill • Season 2 • Episode 55

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Burnout doesn't happen overnight—it creeps up slowly, often disguised as dedication or high performance. In this revealing conversation, leadership and resilience consultant Kaynika Townsend shares her personal journey through corporate burnout and how it sparked her mission to help others avoid the same fate.

"I remember one morning just being at my desk and fully, fully exhausted and thinking what's the point of continuing to do this work?" Kai-Nneka recalls, describing the culmination of months spent trying to prove herself worthy in spaces where she was often "the only or among the few"—the only woman, the only Black person in the room. This experience mirrors what countless high-achieving professionals face, particularly those from underrepresented backgrounds who feel they must work twice as hard to be seen as equally competent.

Kai-Nneka unpacks the three dimensions of burnout as defined by the WHO: cynicism about work, persistent exhaustion, and diminished belief in one's professional efficacy. These manifestations don't appear suddenly but develop through repeated cycles of stress without adequate recovery. Through her FLOW framework (Find stuck points, Learn from past data, Optimize strategy, Weave in resilient practices), she offers a practical approach to breaking this cycle and building sustainable resilience.

What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Kaynika's insight into how organizations often miss the mark in addressing burnout. While companies increasingly talk about well-being, many focus solely on recovery resources rather than preventative measures that address root causes. As she notes, with one in five UK workers taking time off due to high stress, and younger generations prioritizing well-being in their employment choices, organizations that don't adapt risk losing talent and productivity.

Connect with Kai-Nneka on LinkedIn 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Forging Resilience, exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership. Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge success and leadership Today on Forging Resilience, joined by Kaynika Townsend. Kaynika is a leadership and resilience and burnout consultant, dedicated to helping leaders and teams in the financial and technology sectors, helping to prevent burnouts and maintain a thriving work-life mix. She's got over a decade of experience in male-dominated industries like the rail sector, and she understands the challenges that are faced by high-achieving professionals. Through some of our programs, such as Women Arise, konika provides tailored workshops, one-to-one coaching and evidence-based interventions to help clients recognize and address signs of early burnout. So welcome to the show, konika.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, aaron, and what an introduction.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I had a bit of help there, so let's dive straight into it. Give us a bit of your personal journey and what led you to be involved with resilience and leadership and burnout consulting.

Speaker 2:

So it wasn't a straightforward journey. I spent a number of years in the corporate space, being the only or among the few persons whether that meant being the only woman, the only black person in some of those spaces and what happened is that I felt myself constantly pushing and driving more for success, very often, I guess, even though I knew that I was fully competent, fully capable to deliver. You know, having that little thing on your shoulder that says, well, you got to make sure that you prove that, yes, you deserve to be there. And that did push me to a point of burnout. I remember waking. I remember one morning just being at my desk and fully, fully exhausted and thinking what's the point of continuing to do this work? And it was time to leave.

Speaker 2:

At the time I didn't know it was burnout, didn't have that language for it, but I knew that I wasn't the same person, that I had been the same leader who had been passionate and loving the work that I did. It was time to leave. I left and as I started to do project work as my next field across various industries, I was starting to see a pattern in leaders similar to what I experienced. They were expected to carry the, you know, the I don't want to say burden, but more the responsibility as they should of making sure that their team was okay. But there was no one above them actually making sure that they were okay, making sure their well-being was centered.

Speaker 2:

And when I saw that, I said aha, here is a gap, here's a missing piece to the puzzle why there's so many leaders, particularly those who are what we call the middle leaders in the corporate space, end up burning out. And so I decided at that point in time to do something about it, to really step up and say, well, what can we do? And so I started to do research around burnout, do research around resilience, and I came across the Resilience Builder model, which is something that very beautifully looks at how it is that you can build resilience, and for me it's that preventative approach where you build your resilience so you can better navigate stress and avoid burnout in the workplace. So that's a little bit about my own story.

Speaker 1:

That's a little bit about my own story. Just going back to the beginning there, you felt you had to continuously drive and push to make sure that people saw it was a success. Is that something that you found yourself moving into that state, or is that something that just manifested itself there and that you've always been like that?

Speaker 2:

I think it's a little bit of both. So I am a high achiever, high performer. It has always been about if you're going to do something, you're going to do it well. So there is a little bit of me in there wanting to make sure that I am always giving it my best, so to speak. But then there was also, externally, I would have conversations with my manager where he'd say you know, something like you know, for the position that you were in and the kind of way that you were paid, you know this is not done elsewhere in all the companies or in industry. So, in other words, you really should be grateful. Or for the way that you've risen up the ladder, you know, really should be grateful.

Speaker 2:

And that gave me pause, because I remember responding to say, whilst I do acknowledge that this has been a tremendous opportunity, I also want to remind yourself and the company that if I wasn't competent, if I wasn't delivering, I wouldn't have remained in these positions. But it still gave me that pause in my head to say they're watching and I don't want them to think that somehow they made a mistake. So I have to make sure that I keep this up. You know, always on top of it, and so there's a little bit of me who is the I want to represent myself I always say that it's my reputation on the line but a little bit of the external saying you should be grateful that you are here, you've been given this opportunity and both were really working and driving me towards more of that. You've got to keep going. You've got to keep proving that they were right to have put you here, and that was really really a lot of what fuels my own burnout.

Speaker 1:

So, from somebody from the outside, paint us a picture of that. Just like you said you've got to. Like you said you've got to keep proving, you've got to keep driving what. What does that actually look like for somebody that doesn't understand the or that might be able to connect the dots themselves because they recognize those patterns? What?

Speaker 2:

does that look like for you question? Um. So that that looked like um a bit of perfection. So making sure that when we were asked to produce reports, I remember there was always this thing where, when the reports came from my team, I was always double, triple checking to make sure that, oh my God, every I was dotted, every T was crossed. And to a certain degree, as a manager, you really want to make sure that, oh my God, every I was dotted, every T was crossed, and to a certain degree, as a manager, you really want to make sure that that's happening.

Speaker 2:

But it got to the point where it was too much and in fact, that fell over into how then the team was managed, because there was always that sense of oh my God, well, you missed that, so let's do that again. So the standard was so high in that respect that it was driving not only me to be working longer hours but in some respects, almost demanding that of the team, without actually explicitly saying that. So it could look like that. It could also look like, as I've mentioned, to the longer hours. So you had your long list of to-do and the day would never end, because it was always this thought that you always have to make sure everything was done before you left. So if five o'clock came and it wasn't finished, let's keep working a little bit longer, or let's go home and continue working, and sometimes working the weekends as well. So it looks again like the longer hours, and not just in an intense period, as happens sometimes, where there might be a project that you need to work a little bit longer. This was consistently happening across days, weeks, months, and that's just simply not sustainable where you're consistently working the longer hours, doing that much more than is required of you.

Speaker 2:

And that was the other piece where I because you're trying to prove that yeah, I am, you know, deserving to be here it's going the extra mile, always doing more than is required. And one year you say, but but that's good, that's what companies want, right. But it wasn't strategic, it was. It was what I call now being the workhorse. So even taking on um other pieces of work for other people, oh well, I will do that, it's okay, I will do that. So it meant that even at times where colleagues should have been doing their bits, I ended up taking on some of that because, um, not just um was I volunteering to do that. But the company was also willing to say well, the work needs to be done and since she is very good at doing XYZ, we can push a little bit more her way just to make sure that it is done. So that's some of the ways in which it showed up and, as I said, over time, it was just simply not sustainable.

Speaker 2:

And the way this manifested in behaviors were was that I was starting to be short with people.

Speaker 2:

I was starting to be short with people.

Speaker 2:

I remember one of the first times someone in HR pulled me aside and they said hey, you know, we just want to check to make sure you're all right.

Speaker 2:

You, you know, you don't seem to be your normal self, and and good on them for noticing that something was different.

Speaker 2:

But here's what I found interesting that my response to them was well, actually, um, I am okay, I'm just being more vocal about the stress and the strain that I'm feeling and I think the workload is unreasonable. But what they paid attention to was the behavior and not the roots of the problem. So that was the interesting piece for me. So good on them, as I said, to notice the change in behavior, which was clearly one of the early signs of my burnout, but their focus was altogether wrong in just saying, oh well, it seems I think I'd handled as well Around that time. I had handled a very unfortunate incident that had happened at work which would have impacted the team and the broader company, and I was dead there at the incident for it, and they thought that that was the reason for the change in my behavior and I was like, nah, it's just a long time coming. I'm just being more vocal about the fact that this is not okay.

Speaker 1:

So, in your personal experience and also working with corporate clients, what are some of the? If we really start to peel back the layers, I know there's both the institution or the corporation type of roots of the problem, but I'm also interested in the personal side of the corporation type of roots of the problem. But I'm also interested in the personal side of the problem. What, what are some of the patterns or the the most common, um yeah, causes roots of, of people having that tendency to burn out or overachieve or take a lot more on or or tie into perfectionism, what could you talk a little bit around that?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think on a personal level it's it's such a mixed bag, it it again if I think back to um myself. So you know, you're making distinction between what's happening on the, the organization level that would have impacted, between what was happening on the organization level that would have impacted bernard, what's happening on the personal level when I look back at myself. I mentioned that perfectionism was definitely um one of them. There was a little bit of the, the control as well, in thinking that, um, in some, if there's something to be done, then I would need to do it because you fear that, again linking back to wanting to make sure your reputation is held in good stead, if you've allowed a team member to do it and it's just not done right and you're like it means I'm going to have to take back control of this thing. So there was a sense of wanting to make sure that we're controlling what was happening in a way that would protect yourself as a leader, as a repetition for yourself and even for the company, and not being able to let go enough and see the opportunities for delegating that would even also help others to be able to develop, and it's okay to be able to fail, and that was one of the things that I lessons, that I had to be learning along the way, that, listen, it's okay to get it wrong sometimes. It's okay for things to go wrong. It doesn't mean that you're a complete failure. You've learned the lesson. You have the opportunity to learn the lesson, to say, well, maybe let's do it differently the next time. So, along with the perfectionism, there was that whole matter of controlling, really wanting to be in control. And for a lot of us, especially as leaders, we do want to be in control. We don't want to feel like somehow we don't know what's going to be able to be next and how do we predict what's going to be next? We control what is happening, so, so, so that was that was another um element of it, and I guess, uh, another another part of it.

Speaker 2:

Um, I spoke at the beginning where I said I was often in spaces where I was the only or the few, and I had been taught unconsciously that for me to get ahead I had to work twice as hard.

Speaker 2:

So there was a cultural aspect of that for me that, as a Black woman, you have to for you to achieve, for you to get ahead to where you want to be, you're going to have to work twice as hard anyway. So I was doing it, I was making sure I was doing my part to be able to succeed. So these were some of the other elements where sometimes within us there is a drive and I like that question because it's on picking what, some of the thinking that's going on within the individual that's driving them to behave in a particular way. So I would say there was a bit of perfectionism, there's a bit of the control, but there is that cultural piece for me where it's like you're gonna have to work twice as hard, and so that's what I was doing yeah, yeah, if I, if I reflect on my own experience in complete different sectors where I've led into some of those behaviors that you're mentioning, for me, the root cause is fear.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to be judged, I don't want to be rejected, I don't want to be humiliated. So I will, yeah, do everything I can to to stay away from that. Yeah, yeah, for me, um so, in in terms of recognizing burnout kai, what's, what's some of the things that we might be able to look out for in ourselves, or friends or colleagues?

Speaker 2:

so that's, that's a good question. Um, the, the, who, the way they define burnout, they specifically link it to the workplace and they say it's where there is stress that has not been successfully managed, and they look at three dimensions of it. So they talk about the cynicism, they talk about exhaustion, they talk about exhaustion and then they talk about where you might feel that you're no longer as effective. So what that could look like in behavior, with the cynicism I spoke about earlier, where you know, I was, you know, at my desk one morning at work and that wasn't that, that didn't happen overnight, by the way, it wasn't the first time. I was thinking why am I still doing this? Why am I even here? What, what impact is this even having, um, in terms of my role anymore? Um, and so there was that, that, that, that thinking that it didn't come for the first, and I was really, really now reflecting on what's the point, so to speak.

Speaker 2:

The second piece is exhaustion. So very often, you know, we can come off, you know, a period of an intense, tense work on a project and it's like I feel tired, you know, I feel exhausted. But again, when you're starting to feel more tired than usual, more exhausted than usual. You hear yourself saying that repeatedly over a period of time. So we talk about the Monday blues when it becomes that I am actually feeling this way every day of the week, not just on Monday. I've just come from the weekend where I've rested and yet still I'm dreading going into this week. I've come back from holiday and I'm ready to go on the holiday again Another sign that you might be teetering into that period uh, you know, period of burnout.

Speaker 2:

And then the third piece about just um, how you start to doubt your own abilities. Um that that one showed up in a in a weird way for me, because the the comp in in a funny way, I've, I still felt competent to do the work. What I didn't feel competent about was my ability to get over what I saw as barriers in my way of getting to the next level. I'm like I don't know what to do here. I, I, I think I was competent in being able to get up so far, but no longer.

Speaker 2:

So that can show up for other people where they're saying they're doubting their ability to do the very work they've been doing for so long, despite evidence of their success. They're beginning to think to themselves that this is not something that they're capable of doing. So if you see signs like that in yourself, or if you hear in conversations with friends or family that these three things are appearing a bit of cynicism repeatedly, exhaustion all the time, lack of confidence in their own abilities to do the very thing that they've been doing all this time then these are some some early signs that they might be heading into um, into burnout so, again, from your own personal experience and things that you teach your clients, what's what's some of the most successful?

Speaker 2:

like easy go-to strategies to put in place before people start dipping into the exhaustion and and like noticing their efficiency drop off or productivity drop off, or start to question themselves yeah in place so I I talk about um, building flow into your life, and um it's an acronym that represents um, um it's an acronym that represents um F for finding your stuck points. So really being um, very aware of what are the things that are actually draining you, draining your energy and blocking your ability to move forward, having that reflection goes a long way in being able to say wait a second, I'm this might be what's causing me to feel exhausted. This is what's draining my energy. The second piece, the L, is from learning from your past data. So there are things that would have worked, things that are working for you, things that are not working for you. So, if you reflect on your own journey, I say um.

Speaker 2:

Very often people think that um, when, when, in terms of building resilience, that it's something completely new. No, we all have a level of resilience coming in and there's things that we'd have done in the past that would have helped us. So what is it, when you think back to your own experience, that you could use right now to be able to help you? So, learning from the data of the past. And then the O for me is optimizing your strategy. So you've done that reflection piece. Where am I stuck Straining me? What is it that has worked for me? What hasn't worked for me either? And then optimizing the strategy. So thinking about your next steps in terms of is it that I need to be connecting more um with people reaching out for help, with a mentor, a sponsor, a coach? What is it that I need to be doing differently to be able to help me with delivering what I have to do, but in a more sustainable way? And then the W for me is weaving in resilient practices.

Speaker 2:

So when you think about building resilience, it's not just about the big things. It's doing the small things consistently on a daily basis. That helps you to build up the resilience. So that could look like how are you energizing yourself? Is it that walks in the morning helps? Is it that in the middle of the day, you're being intentional about taking that pause, taking that break so that you can allow yourself to be refreshed before you continue on the day? So just looking at the small things that you can do consistently, that will allow you to be more focused, to be more energized, so that you can have a more sustainable, sustainable approach to your life. I don't know if that makes sense yeah, it does.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And my question to you is, if I put my old school old man hat on literally and say that sounds like rubbish, um, does it take somebody to sometimes crash and burn out before they turn to these preventative strategies? And taking that inward look and practicing, like you've said, there the opportunity to weave resilience into our daily life weave resilience into our daily life.

Speaker 2:

I think what I've found very often is that people go through cycles of burnout. So you know, like in my experience, when I experienced burnout, I didn't even know it was burnout, I just knew that I got to the point where I could not continue doing what I was doing. I even had to end up leaving the job, right. And so very often people will go through this thing where it's high stress, and somehow they realize something is wrong. They have figured out a way to change that for that time, but then they go right back into habits that bring them back into that cycle of stress and burnout. And the reason for that is it's the approach is more just out in the fire rather than looking at what's the systemic problem even within myself that's causing these fires to keep coming up. And so, to answer your question about the, you know that's just a load of nonsense. If each person were to look at their life we're talking about those who are experiencing high stress and potential burnout If you look back at your life very often you would have noticed that there were periods where you were like high stress, high stress, high stress, crash. There's something you did. You either went on a holiday, or you just took the time out, or you started reconnecting with something that was good for you and then you just went back into the high stress, high stress crash. So the question is, why is that happening? And the answer is that your approach to it is just short term. You're just thinking about how can I, in this moment, feel better. But the reflection piece with that flow is allowing you to think on a more long-term basis, getting to the root of why is this happening and therefore, what needs to change fundamentally. That will allow me to, on a more regular basis, be able to navigate the stress, because I think it's important to also say that stress in and of itself isn't bad. So you will find that, um, the you know research talks about how we're. We're starting a new job or you're going to start a new project, and there's this excitement. There's a little bit of stress, and that kind of stress is good, stress that allows you the kind of creativity and flow to kind of get the job done.

Speaker 2:

Where we move into bad stress is where you are now in a heightened period of stress for a sustained period of time, and that chronic stress is what leads to burnout. That's what we're talking about. That's the one where you feel stuck, you feel blocked, you feel deplete, your energy feels depleted. So if you don't take the opportunity to step back and think about why is it that I'm stuck? What's causing me to be stuck? What's actually worked in the past? How can I then optimize a new way of being and weave those things, those small things, into my everyday life? Then you will continue to go through that cycle of of um stress, crash, recover, stress, crash, recover, rather than a much more sustainable way of being, which is about building that resilience to be able to navigate stress better in your life yeah does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

yes, it does, yeah, and I guess I guess for some people that can be quite surface level, but for others there's a whole set of beliefs which they have to start to question or reflect on, because it keeps driving them towards those patterns, those learned behaviors and habits. So what does resilience mean to you, koi?

Speaker 2:

So resilience for me is the ability to identify a way of being that is healthy for me, that I can navigate the highs and lows of life. So it's essentially when you, when you just mentioned the behaviors so what are the practices and behaviors that I am incorporating in my life that allows me, in a healthy way, to navigate life, whether high, the good things are happening, or low, the bad things are happening. Low, the bad things are happening. There's something about that consistency. How, how can I, what I call, flow through that? That, for me, is what resilience is about.

Speaker 2:

It's not about pushing through, no matter what it's it's, and it's not about this, um, you know, putting on this kind of defense or front bracing, like you know, for some, for some, they talk about not showing any weakness, any signs of weakness. Not at all. Part of resilience for me is the ability, as well, to know when to pause, when to rest, knowing that, actually, this is what my capacity is like and so, therefore, I can't take on more. I need to pause here, I need to rest. So that that's, that's what resilience, um, it, is for me brilliant, love it.

Speaker 1:

How do you see things evolving in since you've come from a corporate sector. Now you're helping people in the corporate sector. How do you see, yeah, the future of resilience and well-being in in the workplace, or what would you like to see for for people that are in those high pressure jobs and sectors?

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because I think more than a decade ago, there was hardly any talk of well-being or resilience in the workspace, and now it's. You know, the place is awash with talks of well-being, well-being month and well-being activities. So we, what we're seeing is um, now that the conversation is is is opening, and companies whether it is that they um are delighted to do it, not, they are now talking more about well-being, and even having I've noticed in some of their employee survey, there's a question around well-being. So that's really, really a good shift, and we will absolutely welcome that. I think.

Speaker 2:

Where I see going, though, is at the moment, there is a tendency, as part of that company's approach to supporting employee well-being, is saying oh, here is a employee health line that you know if you're in crisis or you need help, you can go to and use, and so it's about more the recovery, and I think the future is about the preventative side of things. How can we do things differently in a way that actually creates an environment for psychological safety, which is a big part of well-being of our employees, while we are aiming to drive success? So, for me, I think companies whether it is that they are choosing to do so willingly or not will have to start to take that preventative approach and not just the oh, we are doing this from a recovery point of view. You look stressed. Here is some help. It's how do we prevent you from getting to those high levels of stress?

Speaker 2:

And I'll say one more thing the younger generation of labor that's coming in, of employees that's coming in, they're already demanding that, they're already asking for that.

Speaker 2:

They are looking for employers where things like flexibility in the way that they work focus on well-being, because these are values that are important to them. And if these employers don't have those values, they're choosing other employers. So the labor market itself will start to push that in a way that will become more evident. And let's not forget that burnout does cost a business. It costs a business in high turnover, in high absenteeism, in high presenteeism and low productivity. So there for me, I see the you know trends in the future where there will be a lot more data around that. So when we're having these conversations, it wouldn't just be that when we talk about well-being, companies immediately are thinking about oh, a bit of fruit in the break room or a yoga session or break. And don't get me wrong, all of these things are important, but they do not get to the root cause of what is causing burnout in individuals and therefore what's impacting ultimately the company and the person's personal life.

Speaker 1:

Great, great Kyla. As we start to wrap up here today, is there anything you'd like to mention or talk about before we close out?

Speaker 2:

You know I like to say that you know two things that burnout doesn't happen overnight. It slowly creeps up, and I see in many spaces where I use a term, nobody wants to be told that their baby's ugly it's a borrowed phrase, that their baby's ugly it's a borrowed phrase, and so very often, when I speak to individuals in the corporate space, they are willing to acknowledge that, oh my God, I really do. Yes, I really do feel like I'm in burnout. But when, then, you start to talk to the leaders or those who are the decision makers, very often they're reticent to have that conversation because, of course, they don't want to be seen as oh, my employee has burnout. And so I am mindful to say let us not wait until burnout becomes a bigger issue.

Speaker 2:

The Mental Health UK Burnout Report, for the second year in a row, has said that one in five UK workers have taken time out of work because of high stress and therefore we do have a problem here. So how can we address this before it becomes a bigger issue? And this is about employing things like resilience training as part of your well-being programs in the workplace, allowing the ability to have open conversations around what's causing stress. How can we do things differently, both from an individual point of view but from a company point of view, to make sure that burnout does not become the sacrifice or the cost that is paid for success.

Speaker 1:

Love it. So how might people get in touch with you, Kai, if they're interested in indeed your resilience program or just starting that conversation about what's going on for them or how you can support?

Speaker 2:

So LinkedIn is the best place to find me. Please do connect with me on LinkedIn. I would welcome you know conversations about how it is that I can build tailor-made resilience program for companies where we look at we start with a resilience assessment and then use that as a basis to really look at what is needed for your team or your particular organization. I also welcome conversations where maybe, if you're not ready for that tailor-made program, that we could start with conversations around building resilience and navigating stress through perhaps a lunch and learn or a talk with your ERGs. I'd absolutely welcome those opportunities to have those conversations with you. Connect with me on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1:

Brilliant Well, kai, thanks so much for taking the time to speak to us today, sharing a bit about your story and giving us some frameworks and insights there. It's been an absolute pleasure. So thanks very much and I'll speak to us today sharing a bit about your, your story and giving us some from frameworks and insights there. It's been an absolute pleasure. So, thanks very much and I'll speak to you soon thank you, erin, for this opportunity.