Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
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Forging Resilience
71 Jordan Dawes: Diversity isn’t a checkbox. It’s a performance multiplier.
What happens when elite sport collides with military service? Jordan Dawes knows this terrain intimately.
As both a professional basketball player and Royal Marine, he navigates two demanding worlds that surprisingly share deep commonalities—challenging our assumptions about performance, identity, and resilience.
Jordan's basketball journey began quite literally from birth, with family photos showing him being breastfed courtside during his mother's games. His father, a coach who met his mother through the sport, ensured basketball was woven into the fabric of their family life. But Jordan's path wasn't smooth.
"In both environments, you're expected to perform regardless of what's happening outside," Jordan explains, drawing fascinating connections between sport and military service. "You might not like someone in your troop or on your team, but when it matters, you have to get past that."
This perspective gives Jordan unique insight into high-performance cultures, though he notes one crucial difference: "In basketball, we're primed to perform under perfect conditions; in the corps, you're primed to perform under the worst conditions imaginable."
Perhaps most compelling is Jordan's advocacy for diversity within the Royal Marines, drawing from his experiences as a mixed-race serviceman navigating different cultural expectations. "It's about bringing your whole self to work," he explains, making both moral and performance-based arguments for inclusive organisations.
Want to discover how elite performers maintain balance, overcome setbacks, and find fulfillment while constantly pushing boundaries? Jordan's journey offers rare insights from someone who lives in two demanding worlds simultaneously.
Listen now, then connect with Jordan on
Instagram or his performance coaching business Phyz Factory.
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Welcome to Forging Resilience, exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership. Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today, on Forging Resilience, I'm joined by Jordan Dawes, a Royal Marine and professional basketball player, a man who brings a lot more depth, not just on the court, but off it as well. Today, we're going to talk about the realities of elite sport. I'm going to touch on highlights and low points in his pursuit of harmony or balance in high performance, as well as resilience in terms of coming back from injury, power and pain of identity, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally.
Speaker 1:Jordan, welcome to Forging Resilience today, buddy. Thank you Happy to be here, mate. It's I think one of the first things that jumped out on me when I came across your profile, as I mentioned to you in our previous chat, was that awesome image of half in Royal Marines uniform, half in your basketball uniform, which definitely caught my eye. Then, what really resonated is your message and your authenticity, which I was drawn to, which led me to reach out. But for our listeners, mate, give us a snapshot of your background, um um, in what is an incredible combination of of careers, buddy so, first and foremost, just on that image, I don't consider myself a very creative person.
Speaker 2:It's definitely something that I'm working on. You know, my sister's an actor. She seemed to get all of those creative genes, but that was an idea that just came to me, unfortunately, I could go to. I had a really good relationship with navy marketing and they came up with this picture and then one of my friends refined it. So that was one of the few creative ideas that I might have had. And I know there's one of the lads, um, that one of the bobsleigh lads. He's copied that recently, um, and I said I don't, I don't blame him, I would have done exactly the same had I seen it. So that's first and foremost.
Speaker 2:But in terms of me, you know it's a if you imagine that there's a cauldron and we've poured all these different things into it over this time, but I think the foundations were all built within my family. That's allowed me then to progress and progress on with the lessons that I've learned to, you know, elite level sport, to the Royal Marines and and everything else that comes with it, and these standards are something that that stay throughout my entire life. Now, kicking on to my coaching business and what I try to help people build within their own life of contentment and fulfillment, alongside, obviously, the initial vehicle that we built it on, which was their fitness. All of these things come together, but if we, if we look in this sort of personal development sphere and everything that comes inside it, they all are very, very, very aligned, and I keep going back to the standards that we talk about and the lessons that we learn throughout our lives and then being able to implement them, so we keep ourselves at the standard that we've defined for ourself love it, mate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's some really interesting stuff in there already, but I'm keen just to hover for for a little bit on on, yeah, basketball and the marines. Which one came first?
Speaker 2:basketball. Uh yeah, basketball was. I've been around it forever. It's actually how my mom and dad met. My dad coached my mom and the police team.
Speaker 2:Um, it's something that's been a part of, you know, my family forever. It's been a part of me forever. You know. There's even stories from me as a baby, with my mom on the bench and the coach turning around and she's breastfeeding me at that time. So even going back that far, so it's something that you could say is ingrained and also sporting. You know, I've been fortunate that between my two brothers, cousins, we've all got to sport at a pretty good level and I guess that that, coming down from our parents and within the family and just, we were given the grounds to be able to go and explore and the opportunity to go and explore these different sports and we've just been able to take it and run with it to an extent with basketball, though, mate, can you remember times as you were growing up a love-hate relationship, or has it always been something that's just you've been drawn to give, given the the strength and depth of basketball in your family?
Speaker 2:so really for me it's always been a love. But it's interesting you say that to my brother. He plays rugby, uh, nationally rugby now I just made a debut for jamaica actually but he hated basketball growing up purely because he felt like he was always getting dragged to watch me play all over the country all the time. So, but for me it was always a love. I could remember getting you know videos, vhs, and there's a one that my dad had called dazzling dunks and basketball bloopers, and it'd be Michael Jordan, magic Johnson, larry Bird. They were sort of before my time I was only born in 93, so but I would watch the videos. Then I'd be in the hallway and I'd be dribbling, doing my mom and dad's head heading like passing the ball against the wall. It wasn't even a big hallway, it definitely wasn't a big house, and this was just something that I always desired. The early pictures of me in basketball kit. Parents had me in Jordans, but it wasn't the only thing that was loved and we was also really encouraged to explore the sports, like I love football, I love rugby, love cricket. You know the Jamaican roots inside points to cricket, so it wasn't, it wasn't a tunnel vision towards it, but I've definitely always loved it. That being said, it doesn't mean it's always been a linear journey. It's been.
Speaker 2:There has been specifically one point where I fell out of love with the game. I absolutely hated it and that started to seep into other areas of my life, which was a really difficult period because I think at that point I attached so much of my identity onto being a basketball player. So this point was really tough. It came from the, from being a really really good shooter, um, confident in saying that, and going through this confidence crisis which led to me changing my technique and how I shoot the basketball, which then started to to seep into other areas. Like I say, the, my whole technique started to change.
Speaker 2:Everything started to change. I'm now. If I was in a game, I didn't even want to catch the ball at the three-point line because I didn't want to shoot it, and that apprehension was always there. It was always a feeling inside me Sleepless nights, points where, you know, this became a real difficult point to deal with and only when I look back it's like, wow, that was quite a lot and that was something that went on for years and years and you know, fortunately I found a way to reinvent myself as a player that I could still be effective, albeit losing what the foundations for my game were built upon.
Speaker 1:So how did you come back to that confident self after such a challenging time and going through those technique changes and that journey?
Speaker 2:So it was really a lot of reflection. I think one massive part of my journey is empathy isn't something that I was naturally given. Um, and you know the background in the core and the raw marines. You know we see a lot of people where empathy might not be a strong suit and I saw the world in a very black and white way and what happened on this journey of self-reflection was making my subconscious conscious and I started to realize that actually there's a lot of things I did subconsciously that actually, if you read the books, if you read the literature, I was just doing them naturally and it was subconscious, but now I've really started to understand them, which has obviously helped me later on could you give us a little example of something like that, jordan?
Speaker 1:sorry, that's something that we take for granted, but that you were doing, naturally.
Speaker 2:So the initial thing that that jumps out to me is visualization straight away, first and foremost. Why visualization? Because there's various aspects of my life that visualization has been a part of, but I didn't realize it was visualization at the time. In basketball that might be seeing myself literally seeing myself, or driving to a game, imagining the interview that might be going out on the social media after the game, when I've had this great game and what did that game look like? And it's already known what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2:If we flip that into the Royal Marines, it would be whenever we're going through these really tough periods, seeing myself at the end of the day, seeing myself in my bed or in a comfortable environment and knowing that I've overcome it. And day, seeing myself in my bed or in a comfortable environment and knowing that I've overcome it, and also seeing myself the other side, where I might not have completed what I wanted to to complete. And how does that feel? Do I feel ashamed, do I feel sad? And I'm in a comfortable environment where everything feels great and everybody would look back and be like I wish I would have just done that. I didn't want to have that feeling and it was something that I'd already seen in my head. What do the two look like? What's the differential? How do I get to the side that I want to be on?
Speaker 1:Love it, mate. So where does the, where does the Royal Marines start to come into play during during your basketball career?
Speaker 2:So with the Royal Marines. So I always said I think this is, it's a big thing. My older brother applied for the Royal Marines and he is someone that I've always looked up to, will always look up to. We're really close. It's 10 years difference but I remember being, you know, six years old, eight years old, and he would take me out with his friends. I'd spend all day at the cricket club with him and his friends and you know it was something that he didn't have to do a lot of my friends, but that obviously impacted my relationship with my younger brother as well and how I was with him, and also some of my friends that have said they saw how we were and they wanted to be like that with their siblings. So he applied and I think, well, he couldn't do it because of asthma the classic asthma debacle that a lot of people go through, and I don't know if that's something that stayed with me or planted a seed really early on and I always said that if basketball didn't work out, then I would join the Royal Marines.
Speaker 2:Now, funnily enough, going back to that crisis of confidence and being released and not, you know, after having some early success and going through this period of being released. I entered a period of my life where it was like, okay, put your money where your mouth is right now. You've always said you're going to join the Royal Marines. Now it's time that you might actually have to do it now. There was other spaces I could go and explore, but I fell out of love with basketball at that period so I went into the careers office I that period. So I went into the careers office I didn't tell anybody, went into the careers office, came home with all literature and just said to my dad I've put my application in and everybody was. I was 23 at the time. Everyone was like what? Like he just moved home, like what on earth is going on? So it was definitely took everyone by surprise. So that was wrong. I was 21 at that point because I'd just left Loughborough University and Leicester Riders Basketball Club. So I was 21, applied as an officer, went through the officer application process, passed everything to be an officer, but was borderline making the batch. Obviously, they're only taking 60 officers a year, so you could pass everything and I think on that entry there was 38 because of back batches and, I think, foreign nationals that were doing the course. So 38 spaces. They send you a letter out to find out whether that gives you some knowledge of whether you'll make the intake or not, because the board sits later on in the year and it the letter came out saying your borderline making the batch. So you can't really plan for anything then. And then when they had done the batch selection, I was actually unfortunate. So that led me back to playing basketball. That year I was fortunate to play at Worcester Walls in the British Basketball League, loved it, one of my favourite teams I've ever been on. But I decided to go and apply for the raw marines again.
Speaker 2:Now, on this application process as an officer, again I got failed with the should not return, which was quite a punch in the face to me. I think I would say it's the first like big slap I've had of reality and and also it was hard to deal with because I had been offered army officer roles. I'd been offered navy officer roles. So in my mind I was like I already could have been an officer. So I don't know how this has happened like such a big fall off. But you know, we live and we learn and I still feel like I was. I would have been capable, and a lot of people ask me now why I didn't go the officer route.
Speaker 2:But for me, it wasn't about being an officer. It was about the green lid, about joining something that embodied and encompassed a lot of the shared values and morals that I was brought up to believe in. My mom and dad were both police officers. They had great careers. They had all these stories to tell and our time at the dinner table when we were younger and and the stories that we would hear probably be a lot different to to a lot of kids and people yeah, people used to love that and my friends used to love that to this day, like all the time to people just the other day, actually, someone that didn't know that my brother-in-law was my brother-in-law and I was talking about my dad and they're like, oh wow, it's an incredible story. So all this goes into it and it shaped the things that I wanted to go and do and the desires that I had, and I think it's you know that excitement that it's.
Speaker 1:I wanted to scratch as well what would be some of the differences then? Um, for, for us on the outside, when we compare elite sport to an elite military unit, mate, yeah, differences and similarities, some of the ones that jump out most at you, do you know?
Speaker 2:when you said the differences there, that's a really difficult question because I've never been asked about the differences. It's always been the similarities. I would say the similarities is easy. It's always been the similarities. I would say the similarities is easy. You're expected to perform with people every single day and it doesn't matter what you have going on outside. When it's go time, you have to be ready to go.
Speaker 2:Basketball's a sport where people are very proud. People want to be very good at their craft. There's a lot of pressure placed on excellence, um, a lot of pressure placed on excellence, a lot of pressure placed on getting better, even in the off season. You know, if you compare that to, say, football, uh, you know, people might take a lot of time off in the summer. In the basketball you'll take a week to 10 days and then you're back in the lab, you're back in the gym working hard and the core is very much the same. You know you might do a course, but it's on you then to keep your skill set up, to go against that skill fade. So there's a massive correlation there in wanting to be good and it's actually in both environments it's. I'd say it's one of the few places where it's. It's not. You know it's not cool not to care, to have that nonchalant attitude. It's really cool to care. It's really cool to to want to be good at your craft. So that's a massive similarity.
Speaker 2:I always go back to you know you might not like one of your teammates, you not, might not get on with or have the same values as one of the lads in your troop, but you're still expected to get past that and, if needs be, in your troop, you know, would you be prepared to drag that lad out of trouble? When things hit the fan and on the basketball court, are you prepared to? You know, make that pass to the teammate that you don't really see eyes with, because it puts your team in a better position to succeed. All of these things come into it. Being in, you know, shared accommodation and being around the boys all the time, not wanting your mood to reflect on others and impact the team, and all these things come into it. I'd say there's far more similarities than there are differences, differences.
Speaker 2:I would definitely say the core, obviously, the resilience factor. You might not, and this is when you get to a higher level you might not always have the you know, the medical provisions or the care. I mean you've got it there on the back burner, but if you're in the field, sometimes you just have to get things done. You have to fight your way through and find a way to get it done, whereas you know, in a basketball environment, depending on where you play, in the level that you play at, you will have people there and there is a massive element of care on your wellbeing, like your physical wellbeing, I don't know obviously in the core of mental and physical wellbeing always moving forward. But I would say that's a massive difference.
Speaker 1:And if I was to sum that up, I'd say in the core in basketball, we're primed to perform under perfect conditions and in the core you're primed to perform under the worst conditions, most imperfect conditions that you will ever see I, um, I heard an interview I can't remember who it was with, but you've you've jogged my memory to go back and look at it and I can't even remember the comparison they were making now, but I think it's a really great example.
Speaker 1:That potentially relates or not, but it's difference between clean pain and dirty pain. So dirty pain will be, like you said, in the raw means you're going to be cold, wet and tired, you don't know when it's going to end, but you have to keep get backing up and going doesn't make it any easier or any more difficult. By the way, one or the other and clean pain was b, it's slightly more controlled uh, you know, at this time you're going to finish, or you've got these amount of sets or reps to do, or you're going to drill this for this amount of time. Um, comparing the two, two worlds yeah, one I know a little bit about, one I know nothing about. So, yeah, I think I thought that was a really interesting comparison, that that clean pain, dirty pain 100.
Speaker 2:I think you know in the core that thing that they use massively dislocation of expectation and when you think you are done and all of a sudden you've got so much more. But I can also liken that to pre-season in basketball especially. I spent a year in america. It was crazy and like the things that we went through there. I remember this.
Speaker 2:One time they took us to a football field and american football field and it was carnage and that was my first real exposure to a thrashing and they definitely use that dislocation of expectation. But you're right, in the main, you kind of know what's coming and I think in sport this is a thing that's starting to happen, particularly with the use of gps and this sort of thing. You know, I see in I've got a lot of friends that play football and they might be like oh, we did 10k yesterday and they disregard how their body feels and they're coming in the next day thinking that they should have an easier day just because they did 10k. Their body feels good, but they're like, ah, you know, but we did that before and and we shouldn't have had that today.
Speaker 1:They still feel good, so they've lost that and that's an issue that we see, you know, with technology taking over how we actually feel, yeah, well, it comes back to one of those points that were raised at the beginning, that that harmony, which is what I'm going to ask you about now, mate. How do you personally, what strategies do you play, put in place to to find that I don't want to use the word balance yeah, harmony between sport, career relationships and and and, as those things develop so it's definitely something that I'm always learning.
Speaker 2:It's something that, but it's something that I've also taken lessons from previously. Along with the empathy that I spoke of earlier, I've realized that absolutely, there is a time for you know the classic cliche balance. But also there's a time to to lock in, there's a time to to sacrifice things because you need to make something happen, and that doesn't just mean, you know, if we say sacrifice, we say balance. People always think about fitness or health or well-being and goals that we have, but what you know, the things that you and your partner are going through in your relationship does that require sacrifice of? You know, time spent with your friends. Are you prepared to go with that to get the outcome that you you want to see inside your relationship? All of all of the areas of life require balance at some points and they also require the time to sacrifice. And for me, simple things like I have a notepad with my to-do list on. Call it a power list, get competitive with it. I want to win the week, so I write all the things out. I'll plan the week on the sunday. Obviously, I'm consistently adding things throughout the week, but I'll write. There's a little section that has rewards on there I'll write rewards.
Speaker 2:So last week I wanted my friends to come around on a Friday. I wanted to make sure that I nailed the barbecue. There's a lot of pressure on this with the lads. We usually do a curry club but now we do a barbecue club. I had to nail it. I was setting the standard.
Speaker 2:So for me the reward that I wrote down was taking the Friday afternoon just to put some time back into me, um to to take my care to make my jerk chicken, to nail the jerk chicken, and that was a reward for myself. But it made sure that I worked hard and I still got the same amount done. And you know, if you look at Parkinson's law and everything that comes into that, you know, had I had the the you know white space on the Friday afternoon, I'd probably drag my work out through that time. But I rewarded myself and I knew at the start of the week that was going to be my reward.
Speaker 2:So, working on that system but also constantly looking to adjust and take things into account. So if it is a family event that you need to be at, that's kind of it's a bit of a difficult one for you to get to. You've got other things that you should really be doing, like, at the end, what really matters to you and how can I fulfill this best without being a detriment to myself, and then reverse engineering it. What do I want to do? What do I need to do?
Speaker 1:and then, reverse engineer it from there? Yeah, it's not. What really jumps out at me is that that clarity of knowing and asking the questions. But better than that probably comes from like you you've done and said they're marking out space for you putting things that are time and effort, and said they're marking out space for you putting things that are time and effort and energy into things that are important for you. Absolutely, yeah, in in terms of of setback and injuries. Then, jordan, have you have you, have you experienced this? I know you've had your, your challenge with falling out of love with basketball, as we touched on at the beginning. But in terms of like, yeah, external things and by that mean the body, not just the mind, and, yeah, I'm really fascinated to dig into that and especially for for people to like get one or two things that that you've done, all, especially now with your business, that you go on and teach or use as examples. So, yeah, injuries and setback, how you, how you manage yourself, what, what's the process?
Speaker 2:how long have we got so okay, yeah, so injuries, well, first of all, just just very beginning. As much as I lost the love for basketball at the start, I also regained it and it's something that I will always love. Moving on to injuries have I dealt with injuries? Well, just this basketball season, I've only played three games because of I've had three separate soleus tears. I'm now waiting on surgery on my um hamstring tendon, which has come off, uh, which is going to be six to eight months recovery, which you know has got me considering retirement right now.
Speaker 2:Basketball, not because I don't think I can overcome it, but because the sacrifice I spoke of earlier. And what is that taking away from in my life? Like, weighing things up, I bought my nephew's walking boots. I wasn't able to take him for a walk for until Saturday. All these things come into it. Um, I tore my shoulder apart going through raw marines training, so it actually took me 23 months to pass out of limps. Then I had pneumonia at the same time, which nearly left me dead. That hospitalized me for 10 days. I have had calcific tendonitis of my other shoulder, which was worse than the shoulder surgery that I had on my other one. Yeah, injury is something that I've, you know. That's, amongst other things, previous ham tears, these sorts of things. It's something that I have learned to to deal with and you know it's not something that defines me.
Speaker 2:And as I talk about the lessons that I get really early on, you know my dad's disabled. He had an incredible police career. He's disabled from a respiratory standpoint. He takes more tablets than I could list out, that than we have time to list out you can imagine, every single day. He's recently had a heart attack. He's got osteoporosis, he's got diabetes. He's got all these things come into play. That's not even the half of it. And you know, yesterday I spoke to him on the phone and he'd just been in the gym after being at cardiac rehab and then he's going to have pulmonary rehab after that for his copd where he's in the gym on the rower, and then we're talking about it and then I start to go in my coach mode and then he reminds me I'm his son. So we go through this process.
Speaker 2:That's a real lesson that I had early on, partnering that with my aunt who unfortunately passed away last year. She had rheumatoid arthritis which completely savaged her body and if this explains the lady that she was on her deathbed after she had her right leg amputated for five different amputations, so it started off as a third of the foot, then off at the ankle, then below the knee, then above the knee, then at the hip, and this was over a three-month period and she still had a desire to live on her deathbed. When I'm sat with her and she knows, she asked if she was going to die and my mom was in there and has to tell her and we're in there and it's difficult time, and then when I'm sat with her she's saying she's still got so much to live for. You know, these are the people that I've been around. My uncle another uncle, the same way saw a message in our extended family group chat. He's just been diagnosed with cancer after having asthma like real bad asthma for for numerous years and also being disabled, and he was meant to uh, do something for one of my cousins that come up in the group chat and my aunt replied saying I was just in the gym, like all these people still found a way and still find a way to to do the things that they want to do, and that's something that has empowered me throughout my life now. Caveat to that is it's also got me in trouble, ie the pneumonia thing.
Speaker 2:Like I knewI wasn't in a good place, but in my mind I was going to be okay the next day. My shoulder when I did that, I swung off the first monkey bar on the assault course. As I swung, swung on the first monkey bar, I felt my shoulder come out and go back in, so I subluxed it. Um, I decided it was a good idea not to come off and just to finish them off. Jump down, my shoulder comes out properly. I then tried to get up the zigzag wall with one arm and the pci is like what the hell are you doing? Dragged me down. I go to med bay. They put my shoulder back in and I'm convinced I'm not. I'm gonna be fine to go on exercise.
Speaker 2:The next day it was baptismal and test exercise to get to phase two. I was like I'm going on in the field. I thought I'd convinced them I'll get back to my accommodation, I'm trying to pack my burger and my shoulder came out three times. I put it in against the locker three times myself. The lads in the room were like, oh my, but what are you doing? And then you know that camaraderie really helped me because the lads actually packed my bourbon for me and I was still sure I was going in the field the next day till I woke up the next morning and I couldn't move my arm.
Speaker 2:It's, you know, these things.
Speaker 2:I tore one of my calves and the first k of a high rocks and finished the rest and we went an hour.
Speaker 2:It's a pretty good time, an hour and two minutes.
Speaker 2:So it's these things, but that's something that I've had to come to terms with, being able to deal with the injury, not a detriment to myself, but a lot of that is because of the lessons that I've got.
Speaker 2:It's like if they're okay, I'm okay. So, going back to that and also seeing that when you get injured, when you go through these setbacks albeit you perceive it and it is you going through it there's also a whole lot of people that are also going through it with you. You know the amount that my mom has had to forego and sacrifice happily sacrifice, by the way and and step up to the challenge that's not always seen as her own. That's something that people don't see behind the scenes, like these things that you go through take you mentally, emotionally and they take their toll on all the people around you. So there is a lot of understanding for other people to go through, and I think when you're the injured one, you have to know that, because people's tolerance will only go so far and then you might have a bang off and then it gets back to normal again.
Speaker 1:But it's not just you going through it and your decisions have to be governed by not just yourself, but everybody around you and the impact, the wider impact I'm curious to ask, mate, what would especially with the with the shoulder injury in the monkey bars because I've swung from those bars myself If an older version of you was stood there talking to you, would you say anything different to him?
Speaker 2:Yes, but I don't know if I'd have listened. So, yes, what I would say is initially, your goal was not to pass out as an original, your goal was to pass out, that's what I would say. And I jeopardized my entire career and experiences that I couldn't have imagined having Through being that bloody minded of just trying to get things done when actually, had I dropped down you know the high rocks I mentioned. Had I just stopped, had I dropped down you know the high rocks I mentioned, had I just stopped, had I, you know, listened to my body, I would have been back a hell of a lot faster, rather than prolong the injury. It might not have been a two-year sentence at Limston, you know, it might have been an 18-month sentence. And you don't realize at the time.
Speaker 1:It is fascinating I see it with so many lads that I speak to come in from my world and and I managed to do the endurance course on a, on a broken foot, through ignorance as well. But for me personally then, that drive to was so deep seated and I I've reflect now at my ripe old age of 45 that that was probably pain and it wasn't necessarily mine. It was a desperate boy inside me trying to prove his self-worth and he thought he had to do these things to get it. Um, and so I'm not saying that's your case, but how has that fire in your belly changed? Give over over your careers, plural and and again as you start to develop the coaching as well, right?
Speaker 2:so a lot of and we see this a lot in the coaching world like a lot of coaches have an often unresolved trauma that they're then channeling into other people by trying to fix theirs and they still actually haven't dealt with their own. And you know, naturally going through and seeing a loved one that you go through comes with it does come with trauma. Now I'll mess around with um. You know a few of my friends and they'll be like oh, you know, there's no snags to this, but actually, if you, if you look underneath and you peel back the layers of it, it's difficult to see that and and. But it's also so empowering to see people push themselves through all of these things and that's the thing that's left to mark, uh, the mark on me. I think it's definitely, definitely helped more than be a hindrance for me personally, however, it's not something that I would would ever wish for anybody to go through, because, you know, a year ago today actually, we went to jamaica for my older brother's 40th birthday and my dad spent six of the seven days that we were there in in the hospital and this was like a once-in-a-lifetime trip with some of his kids and it was, you know, the whole time. We didn't actually get to stay out, but until the last day and we got to do the best thing. Now, when we look back on that trip, yes, my dad was in hospital, but the thing that was so amazing to us I get goosebumps talking about now is we get to see where my grandparents grew up like, because my dad's cousin still lives on there. My dad was able to get out of hospital for that and we waited for him to come out and that's something that you know I can really speak about passionately and that's, you know, this gratitude and one thing I use massively is is the three p's of optimism um, the personalization, the permanence and the pervasiveness. And what I mean by that is the personalization, this situation that you found yourself in my dad, my aunt, my uncle they're not defined by their illness, like it's not the only thing to them, it's not their solely defining characteristic. Then, if we look at the permanence, it's also not in every element of their life, like they still have functioning minds, they're still able to to do great things. You know, my dad got a queen's police medal, my aunt did a hell of a lot for his arthritis. Then the pervasiveness of it like that. Going back to that definition, it doesn't define every element of their life and and it gives us the opportunity, when we use that model, to be grateful, to have gratitude for things, and when we have gratitude, we can then start to reframe our life and look, focus on the things that we have got.
Speaker 2:Me and my dad had a conversation not so long ago about you know, it was a really tough period for him. He just had the heart attack after all these other things, like I said, kidney removed from whatever else just had the heart attack and he's looking at buying a MacBook and at this point it was the first time that I'd ever seen him. You know, should I get it Like, is it? Is the juice worth the squeeze now? And now we have a saying between us where it's buy the Mac. You know, if there's that thing to like just by the mat, go and do it, because if we are living, waiting for the negative things to happen, are we actually living or are we just waiting to die?
Speaker 1:nice nice mate, I, I could, I could stay here for a bit more, but I want to. I want to touch on what, what, what drew me to you? And it's your, your powerful message as a young lad what, what rank you now? Jordan? That's cool. That's cool speaking quite confidently in public, um, sometimes uniform, sometimes not about diversity and as, yeah, it's not something that, in my time, um particularly exposed to or aware of, and so part of my curiosity is wow, I want to learn about this, about why that's important to you, what, what can we all learn from diversity? So, yeah, apart apart from sort of like it being a buzzword, potentially, what does it mean to you, mate, and why is it so important for us to to understand? So?
Speaker 2:I think, first of all, something that I'm massively passionate about, because I went to school in an all-white area, predominantly white area. I played basketball in a predominantly ethnic minority area. Now, at school, I was considered the hood black kid that played basketball, not early on but afterwards, and it was just, you know, passing comments and and passive no, I won't call it passive aggression, but passive attitudes onto things. You know, is it just your mom at home, um, these sorts of things? Or just because I'm dressed a certain way, all of a sudden, sudden, I'm gangster. All these things were playing to it. Now, at basketball, when they ask where I'm from and I say Solihull, and they're like oh, it's posh white kid.
Speaker 2:Now, to me, that was a difficult point to navigate because I was finding myself. I was 14, 13 years old back in school, wouldn't really know who I was, and then, when I became good at basketball, it gave me the confidence to be the person I am now. How does that impact? I looked at that situation. I was like, well, if you think I'm this and you think I'm that, then I'm doing mixed race pretty well, because actually I'm 50, 50, um. Along with that, you know, basketball taught me to travel, which meant that I was in different places, being in the states, states, being English. You know the accent thing, like how can I use this to my best of my ability? Now, obviously, in the States we were young lads. We'd walk around lads all looking at the girls, and then the girls hear that you're British and they're coming over. And now, next thing, you know, all my American teammates are talking with British accents, walking around the mall, british accents probably, yeah, terrible British accents. But you know, it's something that we was able to laugh on and actually empower ourselves with and it's, you know, being mixed race. That's the other thing I just mentioned before about the barbecue, having my friends come over, my best friends, that I grew up with a group of white lads and I was going to do some lamb and one of them was like I thought you were doing jerk chicken because he knows my Jamaican roots Sorry for the passive or the casual racism, I don't mean it like that and then I make the jerk chicken. They're all happy. So it's always to just. You know it's soft, it's logical and it's a genuine interaction.
Speaker 2:Now, what you know, moving forward, what I wanted to bring into the core and you're not the only one that hadn't heard of this diversity route that we've gone down in the core, because it didn't exist. It wasn't something that was there. People might have said, yeah, there is some work to be done, but there wasn't a lot. And it was me and one of my friends. Well, no wrong, one of my best friends in the core of my friends. Well, no wrong, one of my best friends in the core.
Speaker 2:Our initial interaction in bravo company was about how he had to. He left some of his self at the gate. What he meant by that was where he's from his friends. We look like brothers. Everyone thinks we're brothers. Um, everybody you know. He thought he had to act in a certain way by leaving some of himself at the gate, and then I would be in my accommodation playing certain music, dressing in certain ways, cooking certain foods. He's like you can't do that, that's going to give you stick In my mind. I was like I don't care, because this is who I am and I prefer to get it out straight away for them to learn about it than anything else, and I'll take on any challenges that come my way. Now, when I did that, he also then became a lot more confident in in being that, and he'd been in for longer than me, don't be wrong. He protected me in a lot of ways as well. And how we met, even how we met, everybody would call me his name, which I won't give on here. Um, everyone was calling me his name and I was like who's this guy? And I was not expecting to look like me and I genuinely did think that it was just going to be the racing, like yeah, it's just going to be a black guy that walks in. And then when I saw him, I was like no bloody hell, you do look like me. And now you know we're best mates and fall into the same friendship groups now and everything like that. But this was something that was so empowering.
Speaker 2:Another conversation with another, another mixed race. I didn't bravo company. We're just saying why is so many people that you know don't look like us what? There's not many people that don't look that look like us in this job role? Why is that? Like what's behind it? There's so much talent out there, but why, especially, you know, if we look in the correlations between sport and the military, there's such a good recruiting pool. Like why can we not get this? So I got, I went on selection. I failed, selection came off and then I got drafted to commando training center to play enemy for recruits for two years. Couldn't believe it was a two-year draft.
Speaker 2:I was doing well in my career. I was like, oh my life, what we're done, yeah, and I just called up the core colonel's office really, um, cheeky really, and just said like, like you know, I think we can utilise me to get to the communities to make the Corps a better place. It was a stab in the dark. Anyway, from that I had some more conversations and there was a naval role about. At the time it was a women's and ethnic minority support team and now it's a positive action team and it was just about, you know, helping relationships, not giving anybody a leg up, but allowing people to get to the same start line to further their career, their application process, their awareness of the things and the roles that are available to them.
Speaker 2:Now, in order to make this happen, it's important to show people that it's not just a moral thing. Yes, there is a moral obligation that some of us will feel about that, but the best way that appeals to everyone I've noticed even the most hard-nosed of people is. This is done to make the Corps, make the Navy a better organization. Why make the navy a better organization? Why? Because there is so many studies done by mckinsey and co, glaston forbes, all these different things that come in, to show that diverse organizations at board level are the most successful performing organizations across the world in damn near anything. But there's a lot of us in in the financial sector. So if we want to get appeal to the hard-nosed people and get the majority on board, then it's important for them to know that this is a performance metric. It's not just done for moral obligation, however.
Speaker 2:For some people like myself, when you're younger and you go to the shop and there's no dolls that look like you, there's no key rings that has you know my little sister's name of yasmin on there, it's something that appeals to you. Even now my wife will tell you my wife's white. She will tell you like the excitement I see when I see a little brown doll or a little black doll because there wasn't that when we were younger and all this people don't realize subconsciously affects your ability to aspire and be inspired to do these things. So this is why it became really important and been fortunate that I've been afforded the opportunity to, to act way above my pay grade and the video that you referenced there, you know, does the definitely the lowest rank there, because I'd also say promotion has been affected by basketball as well, massively, and the amount of them playing. But it's something that I've been able to and afforded the opportunity to, to do, to talk about, to sell and given the opportunity to think outside the box and make things happen.
Speaker 1:Love it. I love that initiative, mate and um, so like in terms of your mate, then when he, when, when, when you're at the unit saying, well, just watch out, the lads are gonna yeah, yeah, I can't do that here, did you? Did you find? I mean, I guess you went in slightly, yeah, showing your hand being slightly more authentic in that case, but was there much, much push back, um or challenge?
Speaker 2:it's a really difficult time, isn't it? Because in this day and age, because we live in a generation of outrage, where somebody says something that you know doesn't carry any weight to it and it is really said in a way, and especially in the core, where you know there's this word banter, and I have no issue. Like, sometimes there are things that's funny and there's a lot of dark humor that comes within the core nature of cheerfulness in the face of adversity. It's a real tough balance between the both and you do see things like I've had when Black Lives Matter came about, we got taken down lines and we'd only ever been told this. With this initiative, nobody go and take part in the riots and if you are, you'll be in trouble. Well, guess what? There was all sorts of protests that we've never been told that about before. So that's a frustrating thing.
Speaker 2:Or even somebody in my accommodation, someone that I considered a friend, playing all george floyd's convictions when I walked into my accommodation and we hadn't even spoken about it and I knew that and it straight away. His question was what do you think of this? And it was the point that he was making was about his convictions, and to me that's a difficult space and I'm not someone that will say I haven't encountered racism in the, because I have. What I will say is that I've also encountered a lot of people, a lot more people, that will stamp it out at the lower levels. Now do I think there's difficulties as you climb the ladder? Absolutely Are they fighting to. You know, overcome these difficulties Also, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:I would say, you know, with my mate that I mentioned before the point that he is now put it this way he's got a Jamaica flag hanging up where he keeps his kit and you know that was something that he didn't do before. You know that was something that he didn't, he didn't do before, and that's something that we need to see, because the fire service had something where they spoke about bringing the whole self to work, and that's what we need to see. And within these studies, one of the things that comes back is giving people the comfort and the confidence to say things and be comfortable in saying things that come from their diverse backgrounds in order to help initiatives and I don't just mean diversity initiatives, I mean performance initiatives, things and be comfortable in saying things that come from their diverse backgrounds in order to help initiatives, and I don't just mean diversity initiatives, I mean performance initiatives that I have moving forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a fascinating topic because I did. Yeah, I, middle-aged white man, um, the the foreigner in our school was a welsh girl. Um, when I was in the call, there's just one colored lad, or in our company, you know. And so, yeah, part in my heart, though, you know when bullying is bullying or when it's right and wrong, um, and sometimes it can be misunderstood or interpreted, and there's the racial thing as well. So I it's. I just want to learn and, and I think most of us know in our heart, when, yeah, when it's coming really close to the line or overstepping. The other thing is if we got the courage and I know I haven't always had this, by the way, I don't claim to stand up or challenge those attitudes, comments or beliefs.
Speaker 2:It's a really difficult space and also one thing that I would say is, as a person from an ethnic minority. It's about having the confidence to put your head above the parapet, and when I went into this role, you wouldn't believe the amount of people that warned me away from it. You don't want to take this on, you don't want to take this up, but if, if we don't have people that are willing to take it on, then how do we move forward? And I believe that if you're willing to deal with the fallout and you know you can take people's throwaway comments and let them fly and not let them affect you, then we do kind of have a responsibility to move things forward.
Speaker 2:And what I mean by that is these comments on. You know, I know every time they call, put something out on youtube or on their instagram or socials that has me on, there will be some form of racism on their comments, racist remarks. Nine times out of ten it's. You know I just throw away, or I'll handle it, or you know I just start taking the piss in the comments, to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:They're probably call of duty experts and to be honest, don't they?
Speaker 1:but I think it is what really struck out there as you're talking a while ago, mate is that, yes, when you're not necessarily represented, you're not feeling heard, and when you're not, if you're not being heard, um, yeah, it's not inspiring. I can, I can. It's a completely different thing, but it's something that I've learned and I could understand how that drives on my life, something that that, yeah, to go through raw marines training, I felt I wasn't heard, I felt I wasn't. I made that the interpretation, I wasn't loved, and so that drove me to push myself really hard. But I can understand how it affects different people in different ways.
Speaker 2:That so that's that's really interesting, that I definitely see that and and that's where you know I mean it. It helped you to get to where you are now yeah, and I've got rewarded for it you know, yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's a tough place to be. I think one of the main things is like, in this day and age, it's very difficult to just not be racist. It's actually about being against racism, same with sexism, same with all these things like, are you prepared to tell that person that you've probably overstepped the mark there? And the unfortunate thing is not, a lot of people are so yeah, well, good effort for standing up to that, mate.
Speaker 1:I'm what's one thing that your dad talked to you about, mate. I know he has had a fascinating, fascinating career. I saw an awesome photo of him with his medal and then, and also, he's the only black officer in his, in his, in his unit or or police station for probably a long time back in there, yeah, back in the day, what are some of the things he, he taught you about? About your background and diversity.
Speaker 2:It's huge throughout. Some of the things that he taught me were as much about basically sticking it to the man as much as anything else. He wishes that he would have done it earlier on in his career, but it wasn't like that then. It meant that sometimes he had to just kind of firm it deal with it at that point in time. But he did take it on massively and, and you know, ended up the chair of the region for black and asian police association.
Speaker 2:Um, but just being aware of it, not not being scared to fight for what it is. And my mom was the same like she. This was all new to her, uh, as well. And, I think, one massive thing to recognize as well with the black lives matter and talking about generation of outrage, there's good and bad on every side, regardless of what it is in life, and it was so difficult to see my mom as a white woman police officer with a really good career as well, multiple commendations, and she's seeing her. You know white police officer friends talk about the black community, but then she's also seeing the other side, the black community, talking about the police officers and getting thrown in in this.
Speaker 2:But it's why it's so important, just to. You know, keep focus on that mindset of rational and regular regulation and make sure that we we do have the full story behind things and make sure that when we talk about everything, that it is with a reasoned argument, not just the point but what's backing up this point. And that's something that definitely comes from my dad, because we have to influence people to listen, and that's a difficult space to be if you're only going in with your emotion and your passion and everything else. You've got to have that rationality behind it and just on that as well, you know it's something that's massively a part of us. My sister is running facilitation courses at the minute for West Midlands Police and going out and running essentially anti-racism courses. My cousin doing the same with his wife and also he had a thing going on with the fire service. So it's something that I feel like is a part of us as well.
Speaker 1:Love that, mate Jordan, as we slowly start to wrap this up, mate, is there something that you want to talk about that we've not mentioned today, or a question that that you'd like to answer, even though I've not asked it?
Speaker 2:not really. Um, obviously probably just shameless plug. Yeah, shameless plug for my business. So, um, fizz factory is the name of it, but we, we focus ourselves on performance coaching, so that's with experts along every avenue we have. We work with rehab team, we work with performance nutritionists and obviously the initial vehicle where it is fitness and it's the three core pillars of contentment. We call them, but inside that I have multiple workshops, multiple public and motivational speaking workshops that we can use, including things like the, the three p's of optimism and gratitude and everything else, but in a in a non pink and fluffy way where we get to the point, where it's it's empathetic but it's also straight to the point, and everything that we do comes with actionable steps to implement these habits within your lifestyle love it, mate.
Speaker 1:Where might people find you if they're interested in in getting in touch with the fizz factory or indeed with you, mate?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it's at fizz p-h-y-z. Underscore factory on instagram, or jordan doors on linkedin, or at jord j-o-r-d. D-a-w-e-s. At geord doors on instagram, for myself as well, or food factorycom well, I'll search those links, mate.
Speaker 1:I'll put them in there in the notes. No worries, buddy, um, but, mate, thank you so much for taking some time out of your day um to to chat with us. Mate, thank you for, yeah, your your story, sharing part of your story and sticking your head above the parapet. Um, I can see your commitment, I can see your standards and I hope you find fulfillment in that, mate, because it's been a, it's been a wicked hour. So, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much yeah, I really appreciate that. And just on that fulfillment and contentment piece, I just think it's so important for people to realize you can still strive for more, but be content in the present moment and be fulfilled in the present moment. That doesn't have to take away all from all the things that you want to go and succeed at and achieve have it mate cheers.
Speaker 1:Jordan. All the best, pal. Thanks very much.