Forging Resilience
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Forging Resilience
73 Nicky Bevan: The Courage to Parent from Love Instead of Fear Changes Everything
What does it really take to raise emotionally resilient boys in today's digital world? This question sits at the heart of my conversation with Nicky, life coach and mother of two teenage sons navigating the complex landscape of modern masculinity.
The conversation delves deep into how boys learn respect for women directly through their relationships with their mothers. Through a powerful story about enforcing PlayStation boundaries, Nicky illustrates how maintaining calm, loving firmness rather than reactive anger creates both respect and deeper connection. "I cannot let you disrespect me in that way," she told her son during a challenging moment – not as a power play, but as an act of love that teaches boundaries while honoring emotions.
We explore the courage required to have uncomfortable conversations about sexuality, consent, and pornography – topics many parents avoid due to their own discomfort. Nicky suggests that when parents are willing to acknowledge their own awkwardness while still addressing these subjects factually, it creates safety for boys to ask questions without shame. This approach stands in stark contrast to the "because I said so" parenting many of us experienced growing up.
Listen to this episode if you're raising boys, work with young people, or simply want to understand how emotional intelligence can transform our approach to difficult conversations both at home and in the workplace.
Connect with Nicky on Instagram or reach out via her website to continue learning about emotional resilience.
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Welcome to Forging Resilience, exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership. Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today, on Forging Resilience, I'm joined by someone who knows me well, is very special to me my good friend, nikki Bevan. She's a life coach specialising in emotional resilience for working mums and is the wife of my best mate, johnny Bevan. Today we're diving into a big one raising boys in today's world not in the world that we grew up in, but this one right now with its technology, pressures, confusion and potential. In this conversation conversation, we go beyond surface level advice into the lived, messy, meaningful work of resilient raising resilient. I must have been getting into the somerset groove where it would start. Nikki, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. So there's a couple of things. I am so beyond deeply honored to be here, ron, and there's going to be tears. I can already feel the emotions coming up, because when I look at you and I look at Johnny and I look at your podcast and you're talking to people that are fighting bears and like Johnny, who's a police, and your, you know your history, and I'm like, and you want to talk to little old me.
Speaker 2:So, deeply, deeply honored to be here, and we were just saying before we came on. Although you may not want to say this out loud I don't think you will, but the nerves, isn't it funny. I record my own podcast all the time, but all of a sudden I'm like shit, this one's obviously scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, me too, and that's what I said. I always feel nervous about this. I, these conversations mean something to me, you mean something to me and, yeah, I choose to see that, as it makes me human and it reminds me of my life yeah, it's so lovely and at that very moment, my husband, who's in the background that you won't be able to hear did actually fart.
Speaker 2:Can you believe?
Speaker 1:it. Tell him it wasn't a very good one then, because if we didn't pick it up, we'll talk about that afterwards. Johnny, no nikki. So the reason why this conversation will be is is interesting for me is because, in terms of coaching, I can almost directly relate it back to you and you doing finding coaching, um, going on your own journey, um, holding that space for johnny, your husband, and, and that space that he created for me. So it's, it's quite a it's a non-brainer to bring you on um, and especially, as alluded to the, the way that you approach parenting with your, with your two teenage boys. So, yeah, um, what would be a good question to to open this up with?
Speaker 2:do you want me just to explain how I got here very briefly, go for it let's, let's, let's do that let's do that end up sitting in front of screens talking each other today so I've.
Speaker 2:I've got two boys. They're about to turn 14 and just turn 15. Um, and navigating the world of parenting so that my boys become the most balanced young men they can be is a huge passion of mine, which started five years ago when I first discovered life coaching. It was at a point in our life, family-wise, where we were renovating the downstairs of our house, we were living upstairs, we were washing up in the bath. We were like that for a year and my husband, johnny, who's been on your podcast, was like how the fuck can you be okay with this situation? This is not an okay situation. I, my husband, johnny, who's been on your podcast, was like how, how the fuck can you be okay with this situation? This is not an okay situation, I'm like, but it is. There are people that would literally risk their lives and their children's lives to live exactly how we're living, to have a safe space, a loving space for their family. I said this is not a problem at which he thought was a load of bollocks, so we won't go into that story, because he's now a coach and obviously came around to my way of thinking.
Speaker 2:But it took a lot of courage at that point to move forward in what I had found to be a truth in my world. I was always positive. I always chose to see the good in an outcome. Not many people agreed with me. They were like, no, we don't have a choice. People were just miserable and they didn't. I couldn't articulate this then like I can now. But no one seemed to agree that we had a choice. And so when I discovered life coaching and my method of life coaching, that I learned it just I just knew. I had that very deep sense of knowing this is what I was made to do on this planet and the impact even if that it has changed my life and it has changed my husband's life and knock-on effect changed yours and the ripple effect but even even if it just influences my two boys to be okay with their emotions, it has all been worth it.
Speaker 2:And I think and I and I coach a lot of men as well around this kind of feeling that as a man, having emotions is a sign of weakness. We shouldn't feel frightened, you shouldn't feel love. And people kind of whisper. Dads whispered to me but I really love my kids, I really want to spend time with my kids. I'm like, why are we whispering this? This is an amazingly powerful thing to own, but men are like not all men, but generally our conditioning, or men's condition, has been to, you know, be strong, as if strong has no emotions, and that is not the world I want my boys to grow up in.
Speaker 2:I want them to know it's okay to feel frightened and do it anyway. I want them to know that nervousness is a sign to move forward, not a sign to hold back. Anxiety is so very normal when we're learning something new. I also want them to know that women can make a fuck ton of money if she wants to. She can have her own business if she wants to. They could be a stay-at-home dad if they want to, but that is not the society that we currently live in. So there has been pushback, especially as they get older. I wish I kind of knew this when they were diddy, but I didn't of knew this when they were diddy, but I didn't. Um, and so here we are now having conversations with them around. You know their emotions and they're they're hearing that they're safe, that it's not a sign of weakness, if anything. It's the opposite, and I'm really interested to see how that affects them as young adults. I'm going to be really pissed off on if they choose to be drug dealers.
Speaker 1:I gotta be honest with you but I hope that they won't make that choice I will love them unconditionally if they do, but yeah there's quite a few jokes that I could pull on there, but I don't want to miss oh, miss that that point. I think it's, it's lovely and it's really special to hear you vocalize that in the sense. Likewise, very quickly I realized, yeah, not, I might not be able to change the world, but I can change my world, which is the way that I show up for my kids. And if, if all this ever leads to was five percent more awareness for them, that I know now, then I feel like I've won. Yes, I feel like I've won. So it's just lovely to to to hear you you say that. So, nikki, in your, in your day today, then how do you think your level of awareness has changed? How you, how you parent, how you encourage, how you discipline yeah, boys as an example so they would roll their eyes at this, obviously that's their job, by the way, that's this is our shit to deal with exactly.
Speaker 2:but, like, I and my husband asked some questions like well, how do you, how do you want to show up today? Who do you want to be today? And they're hearing things like um, I'll come up with an actual example at some point my brain's gone blank at the moment but it will be like we'll be driving to school and they'll be moaning about oh actually, so this happened this morning. Bodhi was moaning that his teacher didn't teach him properly chemistry. She just writes stuff on the board and that's all she does to teach. And I was like, do you have a book that covers chemistry? And he's like, yes, I said so.
Speaker 2:It's not your teacher's responsibility. Yes, obviously you know they're there to teach. But I said you, learning is just as much your responsibility. Don't give away your power to this teacher. Own the fact that you could take action and teach yourself.
Speaker 2:So even just those little lessons that they are not responsible for how you feel, they are not responsible for how you behave. You have a choice and that choice necessarily isn't positive. Like, it's okay to feel disappointed. That's totally appropriate in some situations. We may not want to spend time dwelling and indulging in that, but let's just feel that for a second, and now what, dwelling and indulging in that, but let's just feel that for a second, and now what? And so they're growing up with a completely different underlying message about emotions and about choice and about responsibility that I sure as hell didn't hear, or the odd occasion I did hear definitely wasn't demonstrated.
Speaker 2:I just think that's really, really interesting to see what the impact is, and already I've got quite. You know. They're balanced. I don't want to use the term normal because that's so politically incorrect and what the fuck actually is normal. But do you know? Know, I mean they when they get in a huff and they do that typical teenage. We don't make it mean that something's gone wrong as parents who are like I love you, mate, have your teenage moment, and we'll talk about this later when you're a bit more, when the other part of your brain is engaged. Um, yeah, and it's fascinating, and especially from the respect perspective and I think this is probably the story that instigated the invitation onto onto the podcast was the, the little story that I had with my youngest recently yeah, around pushing that respect yeah um, I don't know if you want to go into that, but, um, or if you have questions off the, you'll have to rein me in because I'll ramble otherwise.
Speaker 1:No, that's fine. I love that. You give me lots to think about and lots to ask there. But yeah, and I guess, even if it's not the same, but I see it like religion, in terms of my parents, taught me that the world looks a certain way in terms of God created it. I chose not to believe that. This is another conversation, by the way, but my point is I conform to what other people taught or thought about the world and God, et cetera, et cetera which is changing, by the way but that they had sparked an awareness or a curiosity or a different perspective allowing me to make the choice. And that's the same what I'm in, what I'm hearing. You're saying that you're giving your boys another vision of how to manage emotions, how to manage disappointment, how to take responsibility, how to make choices, irregardless of whether they conform to what the world says they need to do or have to make choices irregardless of whether they conform to what the world says they need to do or have to do, or their classmates.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, they've got more options and more choice, and I guess most of us come back to what we know eventually yeah, yeah, I hope so, and it's interesting with regards to god, and I've been on my own journey with God and spirituality and religion recently, and because it's not been a topic of conversation, particularly in our family, up until this point, their response to it has been interesting. It's the same a bit with witchcraft. They joke that I'm this hippie. I'm like I prefer white witch. And they'll go no, you're not a witch, mum. I'm like no, I'm like, I prefer white witch. And they'll go no, you're not a witch, mum.
Speaker 2:I'm like no, I am, I'm totally a witch, but not the witch that Disney sells to you like the witch as in you know, I connect with the spirits and the source and the universe and God and all the rest of it, and I manifest to make things happen. That's just a form of witchcraft and it's, but it's interesting how we've been conditioned, how we've been conditioned full stop.
Speaker 1:Massively so, nikki, going back to that story around respect, then, before we go into that, could you even envisage how you would have, or might have once upon a time, dealt with challenge from our kids or disobedience, if we want to call it that or pushback, or lack of respect? Is that even clear in your mind?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. I personally always took parenting, my role as a parent, very seriously, in the sense that I always knew it was my job to teach them manners, boundaries, respect, consequences. So, even though I didn't have the skills of emotional resilience and life coaching when they were little, I was very clear, I knew in my head that at some point they are going to be bigger than me and so they needed to learn very quickly that what I said I meant, because when they're little it's very easy to pick them up and move them around. I knew, as is now the case, like my son, my eldest is now just just slightly taller than Johnny, so this, I can't pick him up and move him around, like if he says no to me I. There is physically nothing I can do to overcome that now. So I did have the awareness that that needed to start from the get-go. So I was very, I was very clear with myself that when I said something I seen it through. So at that stage it was right Okay, that behavior is unacceptable. If you continue or if you don't do such and such, you're going to go on the naughty space.
Speaker 2:That was my choice of consequence, and I can remember days when it just seemed to be on and off and on and I would like this is shit, like really shit. Uh, because no one. You know, it's not really what we all buy into as parents, is it? We see the joyous happy running around and you know when you're, when you're setting those boundaries and consequences. That isn't the case. So I can remember very clearly knowing that. Um, I think now I probably would have done that from so much love rather than frustration, but I didn't know this back then.
Speaker 2:But having gone through that really shit tough time, it now means that they've got quite a clear understanding that when I say, right, if you don't get off your playstations, there's gonna be a consequence, do I have to ask two or three times maybe, but I don't have to. I don't feel like I ever threaten them now with a consequence unless it's really extreme or not extreme, but they very rarely does it get to the consequence, because they know that what I say I mean because of the history and because of the evidence that's proved that the difference is. Now I say it with so much love and so much calmness that you can't really argue with it. You like if, someone like if, if, if you meet aggression with aggression, it's going to escalate.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying there's not a time to be assertive or raise your voice. I think there is, but when that's done with a very conscious, deliberate right. It's because I love you that now you need to get off your PlayStation and go outside and play and enjoy the sun. Do you know what I mean? It's very different than a shouty frustration.
Speaker 1:Oh, 100%, and I can see that. And for me what comes up is that I imagine it's really easy to charge off down a path of fear and aggression and, just like you say, it escalates and probably leads to a different place of which, as young kids, we make that, we interpret that, interpretate that as something very different, we take that on board as us, rather than mum being cross or or wrong or angry as our fault, as our problem.
Speaker 2:We deal with that. Child thinks I'm wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I'm annoying, I'm yeah yeah, rather than coming from that place of love um, because that, yeah, very, very different uh approach, not always the same result, um, but yeah, I guess it grounds in in that love um for them and that's that's what they start to pick up on. Don't have to like it. Yeah, um, that's what I've, that's what I've set out to do, yeah, um, so, yeah, and, and so you sound like somebody who's had a high level of sense, uh, or self-awareness anyway, nikki, going into parenting. But it potentially then was a lot of that, that fear based before coaching, before you had that awareness to make these decisions to to act from love with yeah from their base intention absolutely.
Speaker 2:It would have been my anger, my frustration, um, my, uh, self-doubt in my quality of parenting. How, um, insignificant there's another word, what was I've? All the words come back to me in a second uh, inadequate. How inadequate I felt as a parent, so that, whilst I had the awareness that that's what I wanted to teach in my children, it was fueled by an inadequacy which came across as more aggressive or belittling, or maybe even shameful, which, looking back now, my heart bleeds for that version of me and that version of my children that had to deal with me in that way.
Speaker 2:Um, but none of us are perfect. We're not perfect, and neither is that the goal. It now, with the level of love that I'm able to generate. When I do have those imperfect moments, very quickly, there's an apology, there's a I'm sorry I shouted or I'm sorry I responded in that way. Here's why and I explain my thought process and I'm like that's nothing to do with you, that's everything to do with me. Um, whereas I didn't have that level of um, I couldn't have had that level of conversation when the boys were little yeah, yeah, and I guess there's an awareness and the ability to forgive yourself and a model modeling.
Speaker 1:That is everything, isn't it? Yeah, um, yeah. So take us to that. That story then, nikki, about showing your boy, showing respect, because it only. I think we were across in april when we visited you and I was curious as to why one of them wasn't I think it's blue at the time, wasn't it? Um, I can't remember, but it wasn't on on the playstation, because my kids, who are younger, don't have access to that. So when we do visit for the hour that we're with you, some of that time on the playstation for them is like gold, bigger boys and a playstation, even though the game is like I don't even know what it is. It's really for little kids, but they love it. Yeah, um, it only just clicked a while ago. But, yeah, take us, take us through that story, yeah, so it started off.
Speaker 2:It was a little bit of a combination of just letting the ball drop a little bit and it started off that day we were shopping and Blue had asked for something and I had said no, and he put it in the trolley anyway. But I hadn't realized he'd put it in the trolley till we got to the checkout. So this is really insignificant, right In isolation. But I stood there and then I had this thought well, I don't want to enforce anything like I said to him. Blue, I said no, so you need to. He's like no, and he argued with me on the checkout and because of the I suppose, the society's view of it, I gave in. And then in my head I the the kind of conversation started you can't just be giving in. Like, if you said no, you should mean no. And how are you? How are you gonna like, what are you gonna do next time? What you do? So I was like, okay, next time I'll put something in place. But later on that day I asked him I think it was to, oh, to get off his playstation or it was. It was something to do with the playstation and he just ignored me and I may have asked twice. And he just ignored me and I said, right, blue, there's going to be a consequence. Um, no, no screens for a week, whatever it was that I came up with. And, um, he's carried on playing as if I had said nothing. So I was like, right, noted so when they, when they came back from school or whatever it is that he came back from. And I was like, well, blue, you can't go on your playstation because you didn't listen to me earlier. And he's like wait what? And I said I told you if you didn't get off the playstation there would be a consequence. And I said you, you didn't follow that through, and so now you've chosen not to have your screens for a week. And he was, at that moment, really shocked. And then he went into a lot of anger because his view was it was like nine, I think it was something like 90 seconds For him, it was really an insignificant amount of time for a whole week off his PlayStation. I was like no, no, no, no, you're missing the point. The point was that is now the second time you have blatantly ignored me and that disrespect is not acceptable. And if you're choosing to disrespect me in that way. These are the consequences.
Speaker 2:And when he started to get angry, I was just able to stand there and go. I get it. I get that you think this is unfair, but I love you so much. This is where I stand with it and I said if, when you're willing to calm down, maybe then we can have more of a discussion, but whilst you're angry, I'm not going to be discussing it with you. And so I left him to his anger and what. That was such a painful. It was like 10, 20 minutes, but in that 20 minutes my brain's going you're a shit mom. He's going to hate you forever. He's going hate you forever. He's gonna like he's never gonna love you again.
Speaker 2:He's never gonna hug you. And it had been such a shame because that afternoon we had had the best time, him and I, in the garden. I was like, well, you fucked all that up, haven't you? And you know you're never gonna be connected again, all the things. And I just had to listen to my brain. Fortunately, I've got the skills and I'm a mind management expert, so I was able to listen to myself with a lot of compassion, just be like yeah, okay, sue, I call my. I named my primal brain. Her name's Sue. I'm like I hear you, sue, but I'm here to teach my son respect and he learns respect of women for me. So I'm not willing to to back down at this point. But I did also know that I was willing to have more of a conversation with her, with him, when his emotions had calmed down. So I don't know, it's probably about 20 minutes, half an hour later, maybe an hour, it was quite.
Speaker 2:It was a significant, not days or weeks, but it was a period of time. This was going on in my brain and and he just came, he just eventually walked into the, into the kitchen, and he just looked at me, went. I'm really sorry, mum and I just I burst into tears. I was like, oh my gosh, I love you so much. I love you so much, blue, but I, I cannot let you disrespect me in that way. I, I just cannot.
Speaker 2:So I said, now that we're both calmed down, what do you think is fair? I said, cause, do you understand, there needs to be a consequence to you choosing to ignore me. And he was like yes, I get that. And I said, okay, what do you think is fair? And he said two hours. And I went okay, two hours isn't enough. I said, but how about we bring it down to two days off a screen rather than a week? And he was like, okay, that's fair, and so, and then we had the, and then he started crying.
Speaker 2:And I started crying and I was like I love you. And he said I love you and and actually going through that, going through that, created such a deeper connection, it taught respect, it teaches consequence, but all done in such a loving from my perspective calm. Because he's a teenager. He cannot control his emotions, neither most children, no, children can't. But as parents, we we try and get them to change and control their emotions so that we don't have to change and control ours, and that is not the way around it should be. So by by willing to go through that kind of period of discomfort and my brain was convinced he's going to hate you forever, like you've traumatized him. He's not, especially because we had had such a beautiful time in the garden together. Um, yeah, but it's fascinating.
Speaker 2:So now when I say right screens off, does he push it a little bit because he's a teenager, but he now knows that, okay, there will be a and he's like okay, I'm off, I'm off, I'm off, I'm off, and I don't now have to get angry or shout or get frustrated because I was able to control myself at a point when he couldn't control him yeah, the awareness to allow it, yeah, and it's really interesting that that point there, nikki, that he's learning respect and boundaries for women through you.
Speaker 1:I'd not thought of it like that, um, and I'm also struck by the complexity and challenge of teaching our loved ones authenticity and expression, versus the need to conform, pushing back on what mum and dad says, to find those boundaries. In one sense, we're teaching them to push back against society and be open and expressive and explore the world, and in the other side, we're teaching them to push back against society and be open and expressive and explore the world. And then the other side, we're teaching them to conform on boundaries and rules, and it's never easy. It's never easy. What a fascinating challenge to have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one thing I've just realized that I've never, I've never, I'm just trying to think if I have ever actually said it. But one thing I never really buy into is because I said so, you know. So I'm the parent, therefore you must, and we see this in the workplace as well, don't we? I'm the manager, therefore you must. I'm the boss, therefore you must. And yes, occasionally, you know there are decisions and responsibilities and a manager needs to make a decision. Fine, but not just because I said so. I've never bought into that at all and I think actually it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Not that we necessarily want to go on this tangent, but coming back to the religious structure of what I'm like, so Christianity and the Catholic faith and all of that kind of thing, and Church of England is how the father or the parent is higher than the children, and I think it's the same in a. In a work dynamic, the boss is some form of higher version of the member of staff. From a responsibility perspective, I get it from a teaching perspective. I get it From a teaching perspective. I get it From a teaching and responsibility perspective.
Speaker 2:Yes, I take more responsibility than my child, but from a human perspective, I am not a better human than my child. So when we're going into those conversations, it's about having that willingness and this takes courage and being willing to be wrong, and all the self-confidence that we need to create with it is being willing to listen to their ideas, because they've got some amazing ones, like Blue, especially well, and Bodhi. They come up with ideas and suggestions that I never would. Well, if I'm going, I'm the parent I know best you don't get to get their wisdom, and they've got a lot of it 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that reminds me of my daughter who's eight little Liz.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Incredible character who needs to be reminded of the things to do before she gets ready for school most mornings.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Bless her as she finds her own way of doing things, and I managed, rather than talking at her and telling her all these little things to do. Again, I asked what would help her remember and she said why don't you write a list? So we wrote a list and she ticks it off, and that day it was incredible that list got added to and ticked and she was scuttling around and doing these little jobs. It was lovely to see, and, again, something that I wouldn't have thought of. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible. Nikki, you've used two words that I was going to use, but I'll add them in again. So how do you think then, how do you lean into creating resilient boys through authenticity, courage and compassion? What sort of things are you teaching them and modelling for them other than the things you've already mentioned?
Speaker 2:Well, I think they're very fortunate that they've also got a dad who has done this work, a dad who has done this work. So they they have a very clear male role model of someone who is able to be open about his emotions and he's not perfect. And again, when he's not perfect, he will. He will apologize for that and he will talk to them about why. So I think the biggest thing for me is when, as parents, when we're comfortable with our negative emotions, we can then be comfortable with other people's negative emotions, our children, especially.
Speaker 2:When we're uncomfortable with our emotions, as in when we don't want to feel anxious, when we don't want to feel nervous, when we're angry and frustrated, it seems so easy to try and get the child to change, but it just doesn't work that way. And then we're uncomfortable with their emotions, so we're uncomfortable with them being anxious, we're uncomfortable with them being frustrated, we're uncomfortable with them being upset. The amount of people that I hear go oh, I just want my children to be happy, because I hate it when they're upset. Of course we hate it when our children are upset. Of course we do, but that's not a reason to teach them that being upset is wrong.
Speaker 2:Being upset is normal and if we're okay being upset, we will be okay with our children being upset. So that self-soothing, that learning how do you process an emotion and let it pass without responding to it, just having those open conversations being really normal about emotions. You know, like when I'm going to do a presentation, I talk to them. I'm really petrified, I'm really frightened today. Or, oh, I'm struggling with so much self-doubt today. Or you, know, whatever.
Speaker 2:I just tell them whether I'm hoping they hear. I'm hoping it sinks in on some level. But just us being open and okay with our emotions invites them and gives them permission to be okay and open with their emotions. And most of us, as parents, I choose to believe we are. We are really always acting out of a place of love. We just forget it, and so the way that I remind myself is literally by starting the sentence with it's because I love you that, or yeah, I know, I know you disagree, but I love you so much I'm not going to let you eat the whole bag of biscuits. Yes, I know you want to eat like another pint of.
Speaker 2:Coca-Cola. But it's because I love you and your body so much, I'm not going to let you, I'm not going to let you put that in your you know, whatever, whatever the thing is, they want to stay up on the PlayStation all night night. Of course they do, but it's because I love you that I'm not going to let you do that. Um, and especially as they're getting older, they're like, oh, I know, but I'm 14 now, I'm 50. I'm like, yeah, but until you're 18 I'm still legally responsible. And it's because I love you so much that dot dot dot and you can't really, you can't, you can't really argue with someone. That that's. That's calm and grounded and so certain. I'm happy to negotiate, I'm happy to have a conversation, but ultimately, you know this is the way it's going to be. So for me it's that total, unconditional love.
Speaker 1:And that. I love that. And it leads on to that point conversation. The vital importance of conversation in this scenario it's family, but in the team or in your group, with those people that you know, love and trust. And I'm curious have you, or how do you, broach those challenging subjects that are coming up in terms of sexuality, alcohol, porn that, yeah, potentially they've already been exposed to through school, and people that they know, even if they're not their friends, yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you navigate, or have you consciously made an effort to open those sorts of dialogues?
Speaker 2:yeah, we've talked about porn as a family, um, and we've talked about, especially for boys, understanding consent, like being aware that they have to get consent from a girl or boy, whichever, whichever what they or whatever they choose, um. But again it comes back to discomfort. I think a lot of us, as parents, avoid those sort of conversations because we bring our sexy, uncomfortable emotions into it. But actually, when you just approach the facts and you're okay being uncomfortable and embarrassed and we say that to them like this is just as embarrassing a conversation for us to have with you as it is for you to have it. But it's vital because we want to protect you, we want to make sure you're safe and we want to make sure you're making as many conscious decisions as you possibly can. And if that means you make the decision not to sleep with a girl if she's drunk, that's going to protect you. If she, if she, is unable to give you consent, then you just don't do it and you manage your urges around it. And that will be challenging, especially to begin with as young adults, because you know your hormones are raging and testosterone all testosterone is going to want to do is get into that girl and all that boy or whatever, but it's having just, I believe, just having that open, honest, no bullshit conversation with them and saying, do you know what? This is just as uncomfortable for me as it is for you. That's so much more effective. I, I feel, um and so, and it's the same with drugs, it's the same with alcohol.
Speaker 2:Uh, we don't, we don't shy away from any of those conversations. If they've got questions, we answer them to the best of our knowledge. And and I just, it's interesting, isn't it? Because if a child came up to you and goes, oh mummy, how do you like, where does poo come from? You would probably go. Well, you get food, it goes in your mouth, your, your bodily fluids digest, it goes down through the system and it comes. The waste products come out as poo. We wouldn't. We might have a bit of an ickiness, but we wouldn't have any embarrassment around that, necessarily. But as soon as we talk about sex, we're like, oh, my god, this is terrible, this is awful. We're just, oh, the stalk comes and brings the baby in and you're just like no, like the man and the woman, they come together. The penis goes in the vagina. There's bodily fluid that carries the sperm to the egg.
Speaker 1:I'm hurriedly taking notes here.
Speaker 2:Just in case you didn't know. And then nine months later you know the baby's formed out of the womb. That's factual and I've always been factual with my boys about that so that it's never been. I would like to think I mean you'd have to ask them the opinion on what it's like from their perspective but I would like to think that they feel that there isn't a topic that we don't talk about and when a parent is willing to be uncomfortable and having that conversation, it actually creates more comfort for everybody longer term. So it just comes back to the, the discomfort yeah, yeah, I love that my.
Speaker 1:I think it was my daughter at seven, or maybe even six yeah declared she knew what having sex was and can we talk through it.
Speaker 1:But it was genuinely curious for her so I had to run off and quickly do a bit of studying. But it did start at how to explain this to really young kids. But it reminds me again of giving the kids, but especially boys, a vision of what sex is other than especially as real young kids like mine. Um, what they hear in the playgrounds, which comes from slightly older brothers, which will have come from potentially a very narrow vision of what that is.
Speaker 2:And especially porn. Like we said to them, you're going to come across stuff it's not going to be realistic. It's not realistic, it's nasty, it will be degrading to women. If you ever feel uncomfortable, anything you see, either come and talk to us or, you know, have the courage to walk away from your friends. Have that, because the thing is, children are and I'm not an expert on this area, but children are curious, you know, as creatures. We are curious creatures. We want to explore, we want to look, we want to, you know, investigate, I mean, that's, that's the incredible, joyous part of being a child and or a young adult, and and especially around sex, you kind of don't want to make it. So it's, excuse me, before we have intercourse, please can you sign this?
Speaker 1:I mean that's bollocks, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it's then about having, like how do you, how do you make it exciting, how do you make it curious and keep yourself safe in the process, especially for boys, especially Johnny doing what Johnny does? Um, it's, but you know it's, it's on our mind. Having two boys like how do they protect themselves in a world where a girl could decide, or you know, the next day I've made a mistake, I'm crying rape and it's, um, it's a challenge, it's not. It's, uh, like I don't, um, I take on that challenge, but it's, it's, it's, you know it's a challenge yeah, and and again.
Speaker 1:The only thing I can think of is is awareness and conversation, rather than waiting for the day of the race to find out. It's, yeah, having conversations when they're ready about these, about these sorts of things or even when they're not ready, like you say about they're gonna be ready.
Speaker 2:I don't think there's a. I don't think a teenage boy is ever ready to talk about sex with his parents fair one, yeah, fair one.
Speaker 1:But nor do I need to start telling my kids what porn is, and you know eight and ten, but yeah, I get what you mean. Not necessarily. For that I'm ready.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right yeah, but it's, it is interesting, and masturbation, and like I could remember bringing that up in a general conversation when our boys were quite I think they were probably about 10 or 11. I just dropped it, just very casually, dropped it into a conversation one day, as you do.
Speaker 2:I don't know how I did it, but I did do it and it just so. They just heard that that was normal. So as they start to explore, there's no fear or shame attached to it. Um, I can't say I'm a perfect parent, but it works. It works for me. Well, who is and what is exactly?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, no, I love it, but again it just goes back to that level of awareness and being willing to to model those sorts of behaviors and conversations for for the kids, and the impact that has is, I think, immeasurable sometimes, yeah, I think so, and it starts with us.
Speaker 2:It starts with us there, you go being okay with our emotions, being okay, being uncomfortable, doing the work ourselves in order to to then influence our children to be the best versions of themselves yeah however, they choose that to be love it. Love it, nikki the only thing is I wish yeah, tell me they did clear up after themselves and I've just noticed the nerf gun here look who was that?
Speaker 1:the boys or john, though?
Speaker 2:oh well, who knows, could have been either.
Speaker 1:Could have been either, yeah um, yeah, so as we start to to wrap up, nick, is there anything that that you'd like to mention that we've not talked about? That's on your heart, or or in your head?
Speaker 2:oh, that's a good question. Um, no, I think this has really been a lovely discussion. Thank you for thank you for inviting me and having me on. I think it just. I think it just boils down with it starts. It starts with you, it starts with me, it starts every change.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter whether you're talking about your children, people at work, your partners, whether it's um, you know the circumstances that happen to us all the time. We always have a choice. We always have a choice, and I feel that love is one of the most powerful choices to make unconditional love. And this is a bit shocking, but the way that I get myself into that place of unconditional love is I just imagine they're taken away, and especially in the hardest moments, like when, when they are going, I hate you, you know you're. Whatever teenagers can say. Just imagine they don't come home tomorrow. You would give, you would give anything in that moment for them to be in front of you screaming at you, absolutely anything, and that's unconditional love. That doesn't mean to say they get away with stuff, but it means to say that love sometimes sounds like no, and I just think it's the most effective way to communicate with everybody.
Speaker 1:Actually yeah, and and here's the thing I'd put spin on that, even if it's not, it's not a bad place to come from is it exactly exactly, yeah, so um yeah I'll end on that nikki, where can people find out or get in touch with you? I will put the links links in, but just in case people are listening. Where can people find out or get in touch with you? I will put the links links in, but just in case people are listening. Where can they reach out and, yeah, start a conversation with you?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I'm quite active on LinkedIn. Instagram is one of my favorite places as well. I did more behind the scenes things on Instagram. If you want to get to know me personally. I've got my own podcast currently the Working Mums podcast with Nikki Bevan, but I might be rebranding that very slightly in the coming months, but you can find that on all the major platforms. So if you like my energy and you quite like listening to me, come and come and be friends, come and have a listen yeah, definitely love it.
Speaker 1:Well, nikki, thanks again so much for your time, thanks for all your love and support and encouragement. Um, yeah, you're a very special family to me and, uh, you've helped me probably more than you'd ever realized. So it's to have you here and to hold that space for you is, uh, it's very special for me.
Speaker 2:So, thank you thank you, I received that love back.