Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-hill-synergy-coaching
https://www.instagram.com/aaronhill_79/
Forging Resilience
75 James Porter: The Rhythms of Life and Faith
James Porter's story is a testament to resilience and transformation. After his teenage dream of becoming an RAF fighter pilot was medically disqualified, James found himself on a wildly different path—one that would take him from teaching drums in a garage to traveling the world with rock stars as Zildjian's International Artist Relations Manager.
The conversation traces his extraordinary journey through the music industry, including the surreal experience of singing onstage with Queen in front of Nelson Mandela and 30,000 people.
But the most profound part of James's story isn't about external success—it's about his inner journey. After 50 years as a committed Christian, he began asking questions that shook the foundations of his faith. With refreshing honesty, James shares how exploring theological concepts beyond his "charismatic evangelical bubble" led to a more expansive understanding of spirituality and ultimately changed how he relates to others.
Now working as a transformation coach, James helps clients move beyond mere survival to creating their preferred futures. His approach isn't about quick fixes but addressing deeper beliefs and mindsets. The simple yet profound question that guides him: "Did you learn to love?"
This conversation will resonate with anyone who has questioned deeply-held beliefs, faced unexpected life transitions, or sought to love more unconditionally. Whether you're religious, spiritual-but-not-religious, or neither, James's journey offers valuable insights on finding purpose through life's twists and turns.
Connect with James on LinkedIn or through his website.
Help us improve! I'd love to get your feedback...
The Synergy Syndicate isn't another mastermind where you get lectured at. It's a sanctuary for high performers who are ready to go deeper. To ask the hard questions. To be challenged with compassion.
If you're ready to stop collecting advice and start creating real transformation, join our waitlist. The link is in the show notes.
Sign up here to join the waitlist for the Synergy Syndicate.
Follow my social media accounts | LinkedIn | Instagram |
Click here for my monthly newsletter, mix of insights, reflections and questions. To share with other driven people like you, for your own insights and application.
Welcome to Forging Resilience, exploring for a different perspective on strength and leadership. Join me as we discuss experiences and stories with guests to help gain fresh insights around challenge, success and leadership. Today's guest isn't just someone who's walked through the highs and lows of the music industry. He's come out with something far deeper. James Porter isn't just a former manager of international drum superstars. He also was my drum teenager when I was a lad. Back then he taught me rhythm, kind of, and now he's helping creatives and leaders find their own rhythm. So, james, welcome to the to the show mate.
Speaker 2:After a few conversations and a 30-year gap, I think, between between our last one so great to see you, yes, yeah, great to reconnect after so many years and and just hear your history as well, since you know, the last time I saw you um other than on screen was in my little drum studio, uh under in my parents garage trying to teach drums. So yeah, pretty wild how things have changed and the journeys that we've both been on yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I was going to mention I enjoyed being in your, in your basement as a young lad, but I didn't want that to be misinterpretated, so I skipped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, quite wise to skip that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just as well we're not recording. Oh, wait a minute. Um, yeah, so, james mate, give us a. Give us a quick rundown on on your story, mate. Um, and yeah, we'll dive in from there um, right gosh, 30 years of history.
Speaker 2:So I, I think you know, from when I saw you I think I just returned from studying in the States. So I I'd always wanted to be a fighter pilot. Actually, so from when I was seven until 17, and that's quite a crucial date I'd always wanted to join the RAF and fly tornadoes, you know, 200 feet off the ground, you know 200 feet off the ground. And so at 17, I actually went and did my pre-selection at Biggin Hill and failed on medical grounds. And so 10 years of a dream just evaporated, literally in one sentence that came out of the officer's mouth, which was temporarily unfit for ground crew, permanently unfit for air crew, and so everything that I'd wanted to do in life just evaporated. So at that point I was left with that question of well, what next? And this is kind of halfway through my A-level year, my two years A-levels, and I kind of, at the time I'd actually started getting into music.
Speaker 2:I loved playing drums. I started playing drums when I was about 13. Started getting into music, I loved playing drums. I started playing drums when I was about 13. And so, being part of a band, I was pretty distracted from my studies. And so my A-levels. I'd kind of gone into my A-level years of thinking, right, if I join the Royal Air Force, they only need five O-levels GCSEs at the time, and so it doesn't really matter if I don't get any A-levels. So then halfway through my A-level years discovered that that was no longer an option the RAF and so maybe I'd become an airline pilot. But they needed two A-levels. And so I tried in my last year to pull my grades up. Didn't really succeed.
Speaker 2:So I came out of school with one A-level and was left with that question of well, what next? What are my passions? What do I want to pursue? And I had a friend who'd actually gone to the states for a year to musicians institute, which at the time I don't know if it is still now, but it was regarded as one of the top vocational music schools in the world smack in the middle of Hollywood. And so as a 19 year old I upped and left and moved to the States for a year, which is the first time I'd left home, pretty much, and in a completely different culture, crazy city If anyone's been to LA, it's a crazy city but studied drums for exactly a year, came back and just decided right, this is, this is the course of life I want to pursue. So here we go. I'll be a professional drummer, um, and but very soon after that met my now wife, janine.
Speaker 2:Uh, we worked together, uh, in a, in a, in a music store, actually in bath, and I was her boss. So when I told her marry me, she actually didn't have any choice, and so I think I kind of fell head over heels in love and decided that the touring life as a musician wasn't going to be a good one for me. I did actually do a tour when we first got married, only for three weeks, and it was just like I just want to be home. So at that point you're left with two options you either start teaching drums, or you, uh, or you go into kind of studio session work, and so I started teaching. I ended up taking over a friend's teaching business up in coventry, um, and so I taught probably for 25 years actually, um, sometimes less than others.
Speaker 2:So we got married, moved to surrey because we wanted to be closer to london, to be pursue the kind of uh, the more session musician avenue, and while I, while we did that, I I kind of got uh involved with the academy of contemporary music in guilford and was head of drums there for three years, which was a very, very intense time actually, because it just started. So it's a fledgling business and we were trying to get accreditation from the government. So it was recognized and validated by the government and so all of the drum curriculum, which was at the time a one year program, moving into a two year program if people wanted it all of that had to be written and so as head of drums I kind of oversaw that and taught a bunch of the classes and that was amazing, really great experience and met some amazing musicians. But during that time I met a guy called Neil Wilkinson who is a phenomenal drummer, got really good friends with him and he came and actually did a masterclass. And he came with the marketing director for Zildjian Actually at the time he was the artist relations manager. So Zildjian for those people who don't know, zildjian is probably the top cymbal producing company in the world. Zildjian is probably the top symbol producing company in the world. And so I met up with this guy and he then called me fairly soon after that and said look, I've been promoted to marketing manager. Would you be interested in my position.
Speaker 2:So I basically got headhunted to go and work with Zildjian as international artist relations and promotions manager, trying to fit that on a business card, um and I ended up kind of, I ended up with them, for I think it was again three years. I joined them in 99, I think it was, and no, it wasn't, it was 98 and I essentially had this incredible job of traveling around the world for probably three to four months of the year, split over the year, with world-class drummers doing, uh, drum workshops. Um, we would do a world tour once a year. We'd do either an asia or south america tour once a year, and then there were trips to, like the norsey jazz festival and the Montreux Jazz Festival and and it was really my role was making sure that all of their endorsers or endorsees, I should say were happy and that they had all the equipment that they needed. So sometimes I'd have to carry, you know, cases of cymbals to different places and and hang out with these incredible musicians. So you know, and it was a great time you get to get to go backstage with sting or the dave matthews band in london or you know the cause I remember going to see the cause in wembley, going, sitting in on the sound checks and all that kind of stuff. Um, oh, kylie minogue was a very cool one. We got to, my wife and I got to sit in the last rehearsal before they went on tour and they'd set up the entire set in an aircraft hangar and with a, with a line drawn on the ground where the edge of the stage would be, and then there was about 50 of us just sitting on the floor watching the entire show as if it was a full show. So that was kind of kind of. So lots of really great experiences.
Speaker 2:And then, tragically, 9-11 happened and I was about to go on tour with who I consider the world's best drummer, vinnie Colita, who's out of LA, and we were going to do a world tour and 9-11 happened and he canceled the tour. Of course, in comparison with what happened to 9-11, that was obviously minuscule, but what it did as a to the company was they freaked out. I think a lot of americans freaked out, as this is kind of the end of the world as we know it. Um, let's get rid of any surplus or luxury. Uh, employees. And they deemed me as one of those, and because I was the last in, I was also the first out. So shortly after September the 11th, I got called into my boss's office and he just said look, I'm really sorry to do this, but we're going to have to let you go Now, a year before that, my wife and I traveled out to South Africa and this is where kind of the faith element comes in a little bit.
Speaker 2:But my wife is South African and before we had another child she says well, why don't we go? And I want to show you the country that I grew up in. So we flew into Cape Town, met her sister and brother and fell in love with the place and we both felt very clearly almost direction from God. That's the only way I can say it in my vernacular moved to Cape Town, and at the time I still had the job with Zildjian. So to think of moving and giving all of that up was a major deal. But we were so clear on it that we actually called our parents up on Christmas day and said, hey, we've got a lovely Christmas present for you. We're actually going to move to South Africa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, surprise, surprise, but we came back from that holiday very convinced that we were going to leave. But we took some counsel from friends and church leaders and things, and they just said, look, we just feel the timing is wrong, we think it's right that you go, just don't feel the timing's right. So we're like, okay, well, let's put it on hold for a while. And then, a year later, september 11th happened and it was almost like this was the redemption of the dream, because we were then, rather than leaving my job and moving with nothing, I actually left with a package which was absolutely incredible that they gave me to leave Zildjian. So that was amazing. It was an amazing provision for us because it meant that we could then move to South Africa which happened literally a year to the date that we had left the year before and buy a house in cash, a stunning house looking over the mountains, and we started a new life in South Africa.
Speaker 2:So that that new life looked like me starting a little drum studio underneath in the garage and in the basement and I started teaching drums again. But what was interesting was I had some friends who would come and say, hey, have you ever thought of recording anything? And I hadn't. So I thought, well, actually that's quite a good idea. I can actually start recording all of the exercises and the lessons, put it on CD as it was in the time. You know, no streaming back then old school, and so I started doing that. And then I had a bass player come in and say, hey, would you record some bass for me? And this kind of um, new aspect of recording started to take root and we then moved house, we established a recording studio on the property of the new house and for for the next I guess it was probably about eight years I started recording. So I was still teaching.
Speaker 2:Every now and again I taught in a school, but the studio side became more of the thing that I wanted to pursue. So I was doing less teaching, more studio stuff, and I had some incredible opportunities to record some amazing people, and recording is very diverse. You know, one day I had a lady come in who wanted to record some amazing people, and recording is very diverse. You know, one day I had a lady come in who wanted to record afrikaans poetry, and it's like I don't speak afrikaans so it meant nothing to me. Um, all I remember is that she'd obviously had garlic the night before.
Speaker 2:Um, and then, uh, and then the next day you might have a heavy metal band come in and the next day a jazz quartet, and so it's really varied. And heavy metal band come in and the next day a jazz quartet, and so it was really varied. And some people would come in and they'd have no musicians to work with. So I would organize musicians and I'd play drums on the projects. I then joined a couple of bands, so one of the artists I played for had a number one in South Africa and she was, I would say, quite a prolific songwriter. So we recorded three albums with her, which was amazing, and we and then we got to play at the nelson mandela tribute concert, the 4664, where nelson mandela actually was, um and uh had the opportunity to sing on stage with queen, which is a little on the bonkers side.
Speaker 1:I never anticipated that happening have you got photos of that mate for on the?
Speaker 2:wall in the background there somewhere no, I don't, and this is a. This is the time before, um, I had an iphone, um, so I I wasn't able to photograph it myself, um, but there is video footage, but it's very, very grainy so I can't. I can't see myself, so everyone has to take my word for it. But I believe my, my kids love it because, of course, in terms of claim to fame and you know, when you go to a party and they say, you know what's one thing that you, uh, people, what people don't know about you, that would be a good thing to know. I always put that down. So I actually, in the briefing before the concert, sat next to Will Smith, and then there were people like India, ari, annie Lennox and Will Smith performed loads of great artists and Queen were headlining, so they did their set and at the end of the set they invited all of the musicians and artists that had played before and we were actually the opening band, we were the opening act to come up on stage and sing. We Are the Champions with them, and it was just this epic moment of how many people actually get to do that in front of Nelson Mandela and 30,000 people. So, yeah, that was kind of cool Nelson Mandela and 30,000 people, so yeah, so that was kind of cool.
Speaker 2:And then in 2010, there was some stuff that was happening on a personal level that wasn't particularly healthy and I nearly blew up my marriage and we decided that it was probably best to move back to the UK and actually remove ourselves, or for me to remove myself from a situation that could have got a lot more toxic. And then we also had family over in the UK that we were starting to miss, and so we came back to the UK. So we came back in 2010. And the idea was to start a new recording studio, so, in fact, where you had your drum lessons, um, that actually was the, the coach house of my parents house, which was built in 1820, so it's a fairly decent sized coach house, um, it still has the tether rings of the for the horses in the wall and you can imagine, and the cobbles on the ground, so you can imagine the carriages coming in, um, and so my parents essentially gave me the space um to convert into a studio. So I I did that and it was a two-level um studio. Downstairs was a big live room for the drums, um and a vocal booth, and then upstairs, through a spiral staircase, was the mix room. It was a really, really beautiful space and I partnered with a guy called Alex Pilkington, beautiful person, a beautiful musician, plays acoustic guitar, sings and a great engineer. So he brought some of his gear in. I had some of my gear and we just partnered together and did a lot of projects together and it was a really um, a beautiful time and very creative as well, and so lots of outlet for my own creativity, because I was again playing drums on a lot of different projects as well.
Speaker 2:Um, so that was 2010 to 2013, and in 2012, my wife went to a conference at a church in the States called Bethel Church, which is quite well known I guess you'd kind of class it as a mega church, which doesn't always have positive connotations, but she had a very profound experience while she was there, came back two years later and told me what she'd experienced and I started, just like something was birthed inside me, to also go out to this place and experience what I can only describe as the presence of God, which, if you haven't experienced it, I think it's different for everybody. I think it's different for everybody, but for me it was just like this unbelievable sense of calm, joy, unconditional love. All of that is almost like you're in the presence of God, god himself, which I mean I guess that's what it is. We talk about the presence of God. And so I went out and I did two weeks of a what they call worship school, which was teaching musicians how to lead in congregations, that kind of thing. And while I was there I had a very similar experience to when we'd gone to South Africa the first time, of God saying to me personally I want you here, sell everything you've got and move here for three years. So that's essentially what we did. So I came back and dropped the bomb on my poor parents who'd already lost us.
Speaker 2:Uh, once to south africa for nine years, hey we're, we're off again, this time to california for for three years. And so we literally pulled our kids out of school and moved across the states for three years, which was a very profound time. We didn't go with any expectation of going into church-based ministry, of, or anything like that. It was literally we just know we're supposed to be there. We have no idea what's going to be at the end of it. That experience was was life-changing. In the final year we were there.
Speaker 2:The final year of the course of the program is an internship, and I interned with a phenomenal man who was like, he's like a pastor of pastors, so he pastors people, pastors, pastors all over the world. And he said to me one day so what do you plan on doing at the end of the course? And I said, well, maybe we could plant a church or something in canada, because we've been to canada for one of our um the winter break and seen some friends there and kind of we loved british columbia, again very similar to south africa actually, in terms of beauty and culture, um, lots of outdoor life, and I kind of fancied the mountain biking in the summer and the skiing in the winter. And so he said, well, actually I know of a church in Kelowna that's looking for leaders. Would you consider that?
Speaker 2:So we just said, well, our philosophy in life has been, whenever an opportunity presents itself, just say yes. And so we said yes and went on this journey of interviews and meeting the staff of this particular congregation and 45 couples applied for the role and it got whittled down to the final two couples, which was ourselves and one other couple from New Zealand. And, uh, the day of graduation we had a call come through to say we hadn't got the job, and so we we kind of came back to the uk because it was our, it was our only option at the time, with quite a lot of like questions of what on earth do we do with our lives? Because I'd sold all of my gear of the studio. I'd even sold my drum kit, which is one of my biggest regrets.
Speaker 1:Which one Is that? The Green Pearl?
Speaker 2:kit. No, this was actually a custom-built Tama Star Classic that I'd got made for me while I was in South Africa, which was a beautiful drum kit. I totally regret selling it, but you know it's in the past. You can't live in regret. We do. So. We came back from the, from from the states, back to the uk and back living with my parents, and it was a really humbling, um difficult time, and I'd probably say that I went into a bit of depression for maybe three months of just like is this what we're back to doing? It's just, I have, I can't live with my parents for the next goodness knows how long. We had no money, we had no job, we had no house. We'd use all of our money to live in the states for five years, which cost an arm and a leg, and so what do we do? Um, yeah, you can look like you can ask a question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I was gonna say is it at this point you? You start to question faith and the bigger picture and and the purpose or your interpretation of those messages um at that point, no, um.
Speaker 2:That came later. I think at the time, because we'd come out of three years of very intense living in a bubble of you know, the charismatic christian world, it was like it's our only way of thinking was that way of thinking?
Speaker 1:well, what is that way of thinking, james? Give us a, paint a picture for us, mate yes, it was the.
Speaker 2:The way of thinking would be just keep on trusting um, there is a plan, there is a purpose. Um, just keep on doing the things you know to do so. For me, those things were reading, reading the bible, making sure that I was connecting with god every day. Uh, I was praying, I was doing all the things I knew to do, but it felt like hanging on by a thread a little bit is.
Speaker 1:Is there a danger then in that, in that case, that you go into a state or not state, but a cycle of of doing in in the religious context without actually physically taking any action, then to start opening your own doors, or regardless of of your beliefs, or is that kind of what you're alluding to there?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think it could be could be okay, or do some people is what I'm saying look, I think there's, there's lots of things in life that we we do out of discipline, knowing that it's going to produce a result or it's going to have, it's going to give us benefit. So, um, whether that be joining a gym and exercising, you know you don't see immediate results, but you know that it's doing your body good, and so you, you discipline yourself to do it because there's something on the horizon. Now I do think that there's a danger that discipline alone, on its own, almost kills you, brings the way the phrase I'll use it brings death. It has to turn into delight at some point, because otherwise there's no motivation, and so I think for me it didn't get to that point. I think it got to a point where I actually started to feel I was coming alive again and things were starting to change. So I think, if it carried on going with no change, I think the questioning would have happened a lot sooner. But what happened was, um, I connected with the leader of the of um, the church that actually was my childhood church, which is actually where you know, where your, where your parents are part of um and I reconnected with the leader there and he just said look, whatever you want to do, I trust you. If you want to come and preach, if you want, he just said look, whatever you want to do, I trust you. If you want to come and preach, if you want to come and pray for people, if you want to I don't know whatever then come and do it. So it gave me an outlet to find purpose. So I started getting involved. That was in the November.
Speaker 2:So we came back from the States in the July November, started volunteering essentially In the July November, went and started volunteering essentially In the January. We were put on staff and then the following April my wife came on staff as well. So we became part of the senior leadership team and so all of the questioning of like what are we here for? Why on earth did we have to come back to the UK, started to take shape. We then got given a car, we got given a house, rent free, and so it was almost like again I'll use the faith perspective, but it was almost like God saying okay, you've trusted me. Now here you are, here's purpose, here's provision, here's the open door. Now kind of walk through it.
Speaker 2:And we did, and and for the first five years it was a really amazing experience. We were part of the senior leadership team with four other couples three or four other couples and they were amazing people and there was no, no lead person. We led as a team and because of that, there was always you person. We led as a team and because of that, you can't do something without consensus. And so we would discuss things, we would discuss vision, we would discuss processes and systems, and we had this beautiful synergy that worked really, really well, but it started to break down when certain people left and other people came in and I'd say, the environment or the leadership model, let's put it like that the leadership model changed from one of that kind of synergy to one of being the senior leaders, taking full autonomy, and we were serving the leaders essentially and again, I don't think it's an issue of right or wrong, it was just that we had experienced this model previously for five years, and it was so beautiful, it was so life-giving for us, and then it shifted. Now that shift also coincided with me starting to ask some very deep questions and I think, looking back I'm 54 now I remember sitting on my bed at four years old and praying a prayer to receive Jesus into my life, so 50 years of kind of living, that Christian life, and every Sunday being in church, being fully integrated into the life of the community of church, which again, I think is a positive thing. Community is fantastic.
Speaker 2:But you, I think and I think this happens with any church denomination you become, it's all, it's your own bubble, it's. You end up very, very, what's the word Constrained in your viewpoint, because every book you read, every conference you go to, every meeting you go to it. Just it confirms the bias that you've been taught. And I use that word bias carefully because, again, it's different perspectives, isn't it? We all have different perspectives and lenses that we see life through, and it's not that one is necessarily wrong, it's just different.
Speaker 2:But what happens, I think, in the Christian world, is that we think a certain way and then somebody decides to ask some questions that they don't get answers to, and so eventually it causes division and they leave and start something fresh. So you see it, all the way down through the ages of, you know, the Methodists or the Presbyterians, or the evangelicals, you know they all separate because they think they've learned something fresh and new that the other people don't have. And so I think that I was very much in a bubble, the charismatic evangelical Western bubble, and one of the couples that was part of the team with us, an amazing couple, josh and Kara. Joshua Luke Smith is a spoken word artist, phenomenal musician, an amazing speaker as well, and he started introducing me to people that I'd never heard of, some theologians I'd never heard of, and at the same time, I also went on a course that really pulled the rug from underneath my feet, asking some really deep questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, give us an example of some of those deep questions. Mate, what? What started to pull that rug?
Speaker 2:um. So within christianity, there's's the perspective that we are separate from God, and only when you pray this prayer of salvation do you then become unity. There's unity with God. Now, the course that I went on was a theologian called Baxter Kruger, and his whole thing was there is no separation, there is only union.
Speaker 2:And the reason why people walk through life without a relationship with God is not because God's not in them, it's just because they're living in his phrase would be the darkness of their own mindsets, their fallen mindsets. And the reality is that Jesus came into the depths of our fallenness and he was already there from the beginning of time, waiting for us to awaken to the truth. And so it's a very different perspective, because I used to think right if I want someone to become a Christian, I have to first of all show them that they're a sinner and that they are separate from God. And the only way they can get back with God is to pray this prayer. Now, my perspective is you've already got God in you. You are formed in the image of God himself and you already represent some of the father's nature. So when I look at a husband who loves his wife unconditionally, that unconditional love is an expression of God. I don't believe you can have that expression without God. If someone is exhibiting creativity, I believe that creativity is an outflow of God within you. So when I see somebody being creative, whether it be a musician or an artist or a filmmaker, I see God in them coming out as a creative expression. Now that was quite radical for me.
Speaker 2:The other thing, which was probably more problematic for me as a church leader, was my perspective of hell changing. So, again, growing up in the evangelical world where hell was very much the reality for anybody who has not prayed the prayer and actually when I went for my walk this morning, I asked ChatGPT how many people have lived on the planet from 0 BC? So when Jesus came? And it was like 60 billion people Now. Of those 60 billion, let's say, 10% would say that they are Christians. That leaves a whole ton of people that have been relegated to eternal conscious torment in hell forever. I started to question that. I'm like hold on a minute. I started to question that. I'm like hold on a minute If the cross of Christ, which is the center of Christianity is so powerful.
Speaker 1:How come it looks like it didn't reachieve very much? I bet you went down like a lead balloon, because I can see some of those questions. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. Some of those questions that there aren't. There aren't that many answers for, no and and, and my belief is that questions aren't a bad thing, how many answers isn't isn't a negative thing. The interesting thing is the exploration, irregardless of whether that's creativity, music, religion. Um, yeah, absolutely so I can.
Speaker 2:I guess some people really embraced it and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people rejected that potential questioning of those, those models, and yes, I think the challenge is I do think there's a different dynamic when you're a leader, because, of course, as a leader, the expectation is and I think it's a wrong expectation but the expectation is that you've already got it all sorted, yeah, that you've got all of your ducks in a row from a theological perspective, and to start questioning then causes insecurity in other people because it's like, well, if james is questioning and he's a leader, where does that leave me?
Speaker 1:it leads me to ask then james, where, what? Yeah, these are all the sort of childhood questions I could ask my dad because, yeah, for people who don't know, yeah, I was. I was raised in within the church environment as a christian by my parents, until I was 16 when I thought my first puke qualified me to be a man and make the decision of, of walking away from that, which I did. Um, but as I learn more about myself and I, and I learn more about my truth and the light that I shine and what I bring to the world, and and as I shed the the carcasses of of my fear and trauma, um the more incredible I see life, myself and and so many other things and so many people, all of us really. But, um, yeah, yeah, I forgot what my question was there.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I wanted to pick up on the whole thing of questioning. Yeah, because I think that is really crucial that we I I know that for me personally, asking questions in that environment was a no-no, there wasn't a, there wasn't a forum for me to ask those questions and to feel safe, let's put it like that, because all of my questions were in some ways pushing back against some of the deeply held beliefs you know. I mean the fact you know heaven and hell. That's a pretty major one within Christianity. Now, I do believe in hell, but I believe hell is a redemptive place and not a place of eternal conscious torment. So I believe that I actually do believe that everybody will end up in heaven. I absolutely believe that. I don't know how it will happen, necessarily, but I believe a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:And you know, in terms of my faith journey, this is where where I'm kind of at I. I'm still a follower of jesus. I believe I, I want to be like jesus. If I could live my life every day like jesus, I would be a happy person and I think it would impact everybody around me in a very positive way. Um, but I believe that jesus won. You know, I don't think that he lost 50 billion people over the last 2000 years to hell and and that kind of I remember the question now.
Speaker 1:is it at certain points, then, whatever that divine is, whatever we understand god to be, or our relationship with religion, or energy, or magic, or the universe, whatever? Yeah, it sounds to me like at some man, the human mind can't conceive certain things, so it adds its own little flavor in or interpretation for whatever reason foul or fair, yeah, yeah. So to push back, that is almost like pushing back against the system that it's not willing to. So what would hell? What do you understand hell to be now then, james, because my mind still takes me back to a fiery pit which is quite uncomfortable. So if we make that assumption, then that on your belief that God or Jesus does win, what's that leave hell looking like now then?
Speaker 2:Well, I believe that hell will be empty. Um, good news for some of us? Yeah, absolutely. Um, and look these things, I understand, push very deeply held belief buttons, because even things like but what happened with hitler, you know? Does that mean hitler's going to be in heaven? I'll leave that for another time.
Speaker 1:But um, we've only got an hour mate, but I think um hell.
Speaker 2:First of all, we and this touches on another of the sacred cows that I had to kick out, which was the inerrancy or the infallibility of the bible. I I used to believe that there were no errors. I don't believe that the bible is inherent anymore. I believe the purpose of the bible I I used to believe that there were no errors. I don't believe that the bible is inherent anymore. I believe the purpose of the bible is to point us to a person, and the person is jesus. So I I believe that within the bible, within scripture, there is a metaphor, there is analogy, there is um like cs lewis wrote the narnia books uh, what's the? It's not an analogy, it's something else.
Speaker 2:I don't know right, anyway, the words, I always forget this word but there's, there is metaphor, and we we're happy um to to see certain things as metaphors, but when it comes to hell, no, no, hell has to be literal. Well, what if it is a metaphor? What if it's a metaphor for our ego? Um, what if it is a metaphor for the shadow self? Um, and?
Speaker 2:But for me there is hell, that is, it exists right now.
Speaker 2:When you look at what's happening in gaza, when you look at what's happening in ukraine, when you look at the famines in africa, that is somebody living in hell.
Speaker 2:It's like you think about the drug addict who has just shot up heroin in his arm and he's living in the gutter. He's living in hell. So there's a very real sense of hell being very, very real in the here and now for lots of people. In the here and now for lots of people, whether it whether their hell is living with an abusive spouse or having had sending their, their children, off to somewhere and they get killed in in battle or whatever it might be, they're living in a, in a level of hell could that be within ourselves as well, then, james, if we're not experiencing those extremes, could that be fear, doubt, anger yes, just just as is if, if we imagine, then creativity is, is heaven or some higher power, yeah, as is love, as is joy or maybe even peace, then so it's a living, a living lived experience, external and internal yeah, I like the way you put their lived experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, um, so that's the one, one level of health.
Speaker 2:Then I think okay. So then what happens after death? What happens to those people who have lived a life that is pretty rubbish um, I was going to say shitty. Then I thought about not, um, good job, we're not recording this. But you know, for those people who have a life that is is you desirable, let's put it like that what happens to them?
Speaker 2:And now in Scripture it talks about God's love being like a fire, and I believe that when we talk about the fire of hell, you can look at it as being something destructive, and it is destructive forever, which I don't quite understand how that's even a possibility at it as being something destructive for, and it is destructive forever, which I don't quite understand, how that's even a possibility. You can't destroy something forever. It's either destroyed or it's not um, but um. That fire, if it's the fire of god's love, that paints a very different picture, because my perspective of who god is is, first of all, god is love, but God is also just, god is also merciful and God is also gracious. What is the purpose of those attributes for the person who's in hell for eternity. What's the purpose of God being love to them? It has no purpose. What is the purpose of mercy? And in fact, in numerous places in scripture it says that his mercies endure forever. Well, how does that work for somebody who's supposedly in eternal conscious torment? And so when we talk about justice, one of the arguments about you know Christians use, about being people going to hell, is what God is a God of justice, and if that is the correct justice for them, then eternal punishment is the right thing. My argument to that is that everywhere in scripture that talks about justice or judgment, it's always redemptive, there's always a purpose to it. So, whether we are going through hard times, that actually teaches us something, it's redeeming us, it's supposed to take us to the next level of and I guess the phrase would be the next level of consciousness, as we're aiming towards living out of pure love. So those things, if they don't serve any purpose, what is the purpose of hell? You know, eternal punishment serves no purpose other than it's just retribution and that just seems very punitive and uh, petty to a certain degree. So, and I think I I try and appeal to people's natural sense of justice, which I've actually believe is an out, is an overflow of god within them. But you know, we have a sense justice.
Speaker 2:We wouldn't want someone who has killed their neighbor to not go to prison. But what tends to happen is they go to prison and we say okay, so let's say, after 20 years they are a changed person and they've paid their debt to society for that crime. Now, when you think of a heinous crime, would we always say that somebody let's take the Hitler example what he did was utterly horrendous. Let's say he killed a million I don't know what the numbers are, but let's say it's a million people so a million murders. Each one is a life sentence. That's a million life sentences. After that, would we consider that he has served his debt to society or would we say that he's not and he actually needs to stay there for eternity? Now, bearing in mind, eternity is outside of time, I know that, but if we try and think of it within time, it's a very long time. But if we try and think of it within time, it's a very long time. I think that within us, most of us think that if something never ends, that's not justice.
Speaker 2:So these were all questions that I was wrestling with and then reading books and theologians that actually believed what I was believing now. So it's almost like again coming back to that bubble of existence within the charismatic world. My bubble was blown apart and I was exposed to some catholic teaching which was just beautiful. Um, some, uh, eastern orthodox stuff, which was again a beautiful perspective. So, even with things like sin, the the eastern orthodox see it as a disease, and a disease you need someone to come in and heal it. You don't punish a disease out of somebody.
Speaker 2:And so these were all perspectives that I was like, wow, this is amazing and this is beautiful and this is just blowing my mind. And every time I tried to put God in a box even if that box was bigger, each time that box would just keep on getting blown apart was bigger, each time that box would just keep on getting blown apart. And it's like, oh, this is so much more beautiful and redemptive than I could ever dream. God is so much better than I ever conceived of and so much more forgiving and so much more loving. And so I just I couldn't stay where I was as a leader because I was just challenging all of these different things and I couldn't lead well because I was supposed to say things on the stage where I kind of didn't really agree with it anymore.
Speaker 1:So I ended up leaving yeah, and I yeah, just in terms of you couldn't lead. Well, it was that. That was that your perception, or other people's?
Speaker 2:No, I think it was probably mainly my own, but also the senior leader at the time was having challenges with me and some of the things that I was saying, and I recognised that that was bringing disunity within us as a team.
Speaker 1:But I think it felt like you know, I'm on a stage teaching people and if I felt like a fraud, yeah, because I guess the old school would have said you have these answers well, you need to know it all to to teach other people.
Speaker 2:It's from above down downwards, almost yes yes yeah yeah, because of course that model hierarchical hierarchical absolutely, and I think that was the model that I struggled with, because again, it comes back to that questioning. I believe that questioning is really good, it's really healthy and we have to have this healthy sense of mystery and even the things we don't understand is good. And yet in those environments, there is right, this is what we believe and we teach everybody to believe the same thing. Now I do it very different, and now I would want to teach people to inspire them to search out for themselves. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's much more powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. I've got a friend of mine, Adam Adam Gwenao, who's been on the podcast. He speaks really interestingly about God and the universe and how primarily we're spiritual beings but also animals, animalistic, minimalistic, um. Yes, it's so fascinating. He's dropped so many like little light switches or opportunities for for me to question my, my beliefs around everything, and often what he says doesn't land until 10, 10 days to 21 days I can connect. That isn't that interesting. It's always about asking more questions and I also find it really interesting jordan peterson speaking and how he references, um, yeah, a bit of scripture and also makes it real so that I can understand it, because so quickly if I hear jesus, god or church, it's I. I start to shut down, yes, I. I feel that I'm being preached at and therefore probably judged, which is my perception. I get that and I guess that happens to a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the reason why you feel you can feel judged is because historically, the church has judged people who are outside. Or even within yeah, let's not go there. Um, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we talk about the, you know, certain people, groups, feel they can't come into a church because they will immediately feel judged, and that's like that is totally anti-christ. If we talk about you know, the bible talks about anti-christ that is anti-christ, where, where people are judged, I mean, yeah, I could, yeah, I could go off on one there.
Speaker 1:So how does your lived experience then now show up in the work that you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really great question and I think again before I. So where I'm at at now is I'm gonna come coaching, um, life coaching, transformation coaching. But I think the as a coach, your life experience, all plays into that and I, if you know, five years ago I would have a very different vernacular, the way that I would say things, um, and, but they would only be understood by people within that environment. But so now what I've, what I've had to do, is again listening to people like Joe Dispenza, um, which has been absolutely mind blowing, um, and people like Jordan Peterson, and recognizing that actually a lot of my Christian background and my current faith journey is very applicable. I just need to reframe it into saying different things.
Speaker 2:So, whether I talk about God or the universe, or love, or source or creator, I understand that, for for some people, like you were saying, yeah, when you talk about god or jesus you, you start to feel that you know internally, I've got to step away from this, um, which I totally understand, but I do think that I mean I I think you touched on a little bit with what you said about the, the guy that you mentioned that we are spirit beings living in a human body and having a human experience, and so I do come from the perspective which is that we are very we are holistic beings. We are body, soul and spirit and that for us to live healthy lives, we need all of those to be healthy. For us to live healthy lives, we need all of those to be healthy. Now, obviously, when we talk about spirit, that is very subjective and based on people's past experience, and I have to be sensitive to that. So one of my clients is actually she's Muslim, she's based out in Dubai and she's based out in dubai and she's muslim.
Speaker 2:But there are so many things that we connect on rather than divide us that I focus on the things that bring us together rather than could cause division, and so I'm trying. Because I used to be very opinionated and very dogmatic with my beliefs, I've changed, um, and I'm much, much more accepting of other people's perspectives and other people's opinions, other people's relationship with god or religions. I I might not necessarily agree with them, but I actually get to learn from them by hearing them, hearing their perspective, sitting down with the, with perspective of. I'm coming to understand rather than try and convince you that my way is better. How can I learn from you? And that's a very, very different perspective and is so much more freeing because you're not having to try and convince people all the time is exhausting and also counterproductive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you find your creative outlet these days, James?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one thing that I'm working on. I said yeah, that's, that's one thing that I'm working on. Um, I have played drums once in the past 12 months and that is not good because I don't really have much of a creative expression. My, in that sense, my creative creative expression now is helping other people create the life that they want to live.
Speaker 1:Oh nice, you practiced that, didn't you mate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think, coming from a pastoral background, recognizing that most people want to live a different life, they just don't know how to do it and most people are stuck in the status quo of survival. If I can just get through to tomorrow, if I can just get through the next week, if I can just get through to tomorrow, if I can just get through the next week, if I can just get through to our holiday, you know, then I'll, then I'll be okay. Um, if I can, I know.
Speaker 2:I think about relationships and how so many people live in survival from a relational perspective. They turn over in the morning and they see a stranger and they kind of they know that that's not good, they don't know what to do about it, and so every day looks the same and I was like to. For me to have the privilege of working with somebody to create their preferred future and see it come to pass is amazing. So even with this, uh, this young lady in in dubai, um, she, she told me the other day that somebody stopped her in her workplace and said I don't know what it is about you, but there's something different and you're so much lighter and you carry so much peace now. It's like we've been working together for three months, but that is, yes. That is such a win that someone is experiencing a different way of living that is causing them to be freer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I can explain that from my experience and, just like you mentioned there, because I'm stuck in human mode in doing there's no being, so it's very one dimensional. There's no being so, it's very one-dimensional. When, when I start to explore the connection that I have to myself and those around me, then you start to realize how incredible it is and, yeah, there's no doubt that that woman will have noticed certain things about herself or in others before others start noticing it in her, because she's more connected, and then you can go down the rabbit hole of of making that mean, or we can put our own spin on that, um, but it goes. It goes right back to the, the beginning of the conversation there. Um, yeah, that, that, that creative piece, that, yeah, it starts within us, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think yeah, as as coaches there's there's two methods you can use. One is goal-focused and the other is soul-focused. And the soul-focused when you get down to people's beliefs about themselves and their mindsets and their values that they hold. That's where the real work happens and that's where I think you see the long-term. It's not just oh, I've learned to manage my calendar better. It's like, no, actually I'm a different person than I was yeah, and that's what I wanted to say.
Speaker 1:By walking through those shadows, by stepping into discomfort and I know so many of us, myself included it's easier to stay at the surface and try and numb or stay busy than stepping into something that's unknown, that we probably haven't got the resources, or assume we haven't got the resources or tools to do.
Speaker 2:hence the reason sometimes we need that guide, support, a helpful coach to yeah, to start, uh, taking those steps yes, yeah, and and I think the reality is that until you've actually experienced coaching, you don't know what what it can do for you, and so I worked with a coach for a year. Last year changed my life. It was absolutely amazing. I'm a different person because of it, and different in a better way I hope love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, james, is there anything that we've not talked about that you'd like to mention as we start to draw this to to a close?
Speaker 2:yeah, actually and again this links back to my faith journey but, um, my wife um struggles with some, some fairly big health issues and a year before I started working with my coach, it was a real struggle me personally and I think I had gone down this. Pity me because I'm having to live with this and what did I do to deserve this? And you know it's totally selfish, but I was reminded of a conversation about a guy who had a vision of heaven and he went to heaven and he stood in front of God and God asked him a simple question Did you learn to love? And he examined his heart and examined his life and he said no, I didn't. And God said would you like another opportunity? And he said yes, and he actually came back to life.
Speaker 2:And when I was going through this with my coach and just dealing with these health issues with my wife, that question has been the thing that has guided me ever since is James, did you learn to love? And when I say love, I'm talking like unconditional, and that phrase literally means without any conditions attached. Am I able to love my wife through what she's going through? Am I able to love my kids with what they're going through, even if they choose a path that I don't agree with, you know, and so I've learned to live by that question every day. Did I learn to love today? And if everything that we do, I actually have a statement I read out over myself morning and night. It's my document over myself, morning and night. It's my document, um, and in it it says that I filter every action, every thought, every feeling and every decision through the lens of love.
Speaker 1:And if I can live like that, and I believe if everybody can live like that, our lives would look a whole lot better yeah, well, even a few more people live like that, our lives would look a whole lot different, um, but that's, that's a great question and, uh, I'm going to be posing that to my my coaching group. I'm going to borrow that um and what I was going to say about that um, and I guess the gift that most of us have is tomorrow's a new day and we get to ask that question again.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, yeah so every, every evening, I do some self-reflection and self-forgiveness, which is really important, and every day there are things that I need to forgive myself for, whether it be a bad reaction or response to one of my kids, or not loving my wife how I could have loved her that day. Maybe I didn't affirm her or show her enough affection. Whatever it might be, it's just self-forgiveness and letting it go and, as you said, tomorrow is a brand new day to start afresh, which is a beautiful way of looking at it.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome, james. Thanks so so much for coming in and having this conversation, mate. We didn't get as many paradiddle diddles or flam taps or rudiments in there, but mate it's been an absolute pleasure. Where can people get in touch with you, mate, if they're interested in speaking with you or finding out a bit more about your work?
Speaker 2:yeah, so you can find me on linkedin, um. My linkedin handle is james ad porter, um, and then my, uh. My website is uh, genevo internationalcom, which is g-e-n-i-v-o internationalcom, and uh, there's. You can connect with me on there as well awesome, james.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, mate. It's been great to speak to you again and, uh, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation cheers pal, thank you very much.