S3 Ep 81 Callum Wilson: Living Beyond Limits We Create

What if the very thing stealing your performance is the urge to fit in? We sit down with coach and former professional rugby player Callum Wilson to unpack how desire, presence, and play can outperform grind, and why access to your best self often hides behind split focus and approval chasing.

 Today we sit with Callum Wilson speaker, coach, and former pro rugby player to explore how desire beats conformity. We talk performance vs acceptance, presence, and playing life like a game. 

Cal shares his brain-injury transition from rugby to coaching, identity beyond titles, and simple distinctions like choice vs decision and journey vs exploration — all aimed at living, leading, and performing at your best. 

Connect with Cl on his LinkedIn or through his website. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Desire And Curiosity
• 4:40 Rugby, Team Demands, And Self-Conformity
• 10:30 Splitting Focus: Fitting In Versus Performance
• 17:20 Presence, Play, And Effectiveness
• 23:30 Injury, Acceptance, And Transition
• 29:20 Identity Beyond Sport: I Am Not What I Do
• 34:10 Want First, Then Process: Choice Over Decision
• 39:00 Journey Or Exploration: North Stars And Surrender
• 44:00 Closing Thoughts: Limits, Disagreement, Openness

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to Fortune Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. Join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they've faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Fortune Resilience, I have the pleasure of being sat with Callum Wilson, Cal's a speaker, coach, and a former professional rugby player who's turned his experience into helping others live, lead, and perform at their best. Cam, welcome to the show, mate. It's great to have you here.

SPEAKER_01: 0:36

Thanks for having me on. Really um, really excited as we just sat there and got present. I was like, oh, I'm really, really excited what we're going to talk about and yeah, see see how it unfolds.

SPEAKER_00: 0:49

So thanks for having me on. Oh it's my pleasure, mate. First thing I'd like to say is that you're smelling good, mate. So thanks for putting Aftershave everywhere, uh including in your eyes.

SPEAKER_02: 0:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:58

Yeah. Cal, give us give us a bit of a rundown. Who who are people listening to to speak today? Who's Cal Wilson?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09

Um I suppose um depends how you want to look at that really. Um what may help people connect to me is a little bit about um my background. Um I um um originally I I played professional rugby uh for eight years. Um during that journey I got I've always been really, really interested in what people are up to. Um always really curious. And everyone when I I remember when ever anyone got a job, I'd be like, oh cool, what are you gonna do next? And like what's the next thing you know? I was always really curious about what people are up to and what they're creating, and that curiosity led me during my professional career, rugby career, into uh executive coaching, transformational coaching. Um, and as my rugby career ended, that's why I moved into full-time. Um, so professionally that's my story. Went to university, went into uh professional sport, and now into executive coaching. Away from that, I have a partner Lucy. Um, got a baby, first baby arriving in March, uh, from a really solid family background. Um got some really um amazing um figures for me to look at uh and aspire to be. Um my grandfather was very was amazing at what he did, and my dad too. Um grandfather was a photographer and and and dad is one of the world's best gunsmiths. So um they they both followed their passions in and made their passions professional, and and I think that's like really important to state because from a young age I saw this possibility that like you could do what you wanted uh all the time, and that's pretty much my motto for life: do what I want, say what I want, charge what I want, work for what I want. Uh that's a real guiding light for me. Um run a run a great community with some great men such as yourself, so it's it's such an honour to be surrounded by people who um I think human beings limit each other most of the time. I don't think limp I don't think we're born with limits. I think we add them to ourselves, and and I like to surround myself with people who remove those limits and help me see things more expansively, and um, and that's what that community really offers for me, seeing lots of different perspectives and seeing our limitless nature.

SPEAKER_00: 4:14

So that was off the top of my head who I am. Love it, mate. Got a thousand and one questions from that, so that's a good start. Yeah, um yeah, go so doing what you want, mate, and and in terms of rugby, did those two philosophies or ideologies or ways of thinking ever clash from I've got an image of how rugby is, probably false one, um, and doing what I want. So I'm curious, yeah. How did those two worlds c meet?

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

As in the two worlds of doing what you want and then rugby. Yeah. Well um firstly I was in rugby because that's what I wanted to do. That was my biggest desire. Um so they danced well with each other, really. I mean, that was it, then their perfect marriage. Um I I think maybe what what I'm seeing that you might see, so you tell me where I'm off, is that when you're part of a team, individual wants might not work with like organizational team wants, so there can be a clash in that sense. So is is that something along the lines where you're Yeah, I guess I guess so.

SPEAKER_00: 5:37

I guess so. And and and I I I'm aware that sometimes that'll be dialed up and sometimes it'll be dialed down.

SPEAKER_01: 5:44

There are moments where you can yeah, but yeah, I guess that's that that is where Yeah, so yeah, I think the important part is I originally got into rugby because that was like my ultimate desire at the time. Um and then um I think I probably during rugby I became quite conformist, or I'm not quite sure the way that that nails it, but I started to conform to being told uh what to do, and I th and and I think that took me away from from all that I could be in that I think it limited the access to my capabilities, and I'm not blaming the sport for that. I think I was playing at times to impress people and um to get new contracts and to get in the team and all of these things instead of playing to play, and it meant that I split my focus. Um when you're doing something purely for desire, uh I think it's just about as as powerful as you can be. You know how like when you really want something, nothing's that hard. I mean, you could could describe it as hard, it's like a rear, rear view mirror type thing, but you know, you've done some pretty extreme things, but I I bet at the time you're like, well, this is just you're just buzzing off it, and actually effort and things don't really even come into it. Imagine you've got children, right? You do anything to feed them, you really want them to have a great life, and so there's no question in your mind, um nothing could get in the way of that. And so what I'm getting at here is that when you tap into to desire, I think it's such an effective place to be, and um so I was effective at rugby because I really wanted to be there, and when I got in there, because I started to do things not for the rugby itself, but for um I got a little side quests of impressing someone, or you know, it really took me away from from being in integrity with with my own desires, and I I probably started playing splitting my focus and becoming less effective at times. Um I think that was perfect as well because it really informed the next stage of my life. I was like, oh, by the end of rugby, I felt I felt I I mean at the time I was like rugby restricts me. In hindsight, taking responsibility, I restricted myself by where I was focusing myself, and I made I made myself a lot smaller than I than I could have been. I I removed access to my capabilities um because of how I was seeing things. Um and that was a brilliant lesson that leaving it, I was like, right, whatever I do next, it's it's gonna be done from pure desire, doing exactly what I want, and and um, and I find that really effective. Um so it was kind of it perfectly unfolded um to inform inform me moving forward. Not like not in a prescriptive way, but but really just in a way that just like was obviously effective, right? Before you started to do all these things and move away from the purity of your desire and you got in your own way, you limited, you limited access. So, like what would you do moving forward? It's like, oh well, don't do that again. So I'm curious what you hear in that.

SPEAKER_00: 9:43

Yeah, I d I for for me, I I'm just letting this wash over me. The question that bounces straight back out of my mind is is have you were you aware of that dance when you were playing, or has this only come with looking in the rearview mirror?

SPEAKER_01: 10:04

Um yeah, it's a great question because I guess I at the time I did feel really appalled. Um doubt is the state where you're you have a foot in each camp. And I suppose I was doing that a bit. I was like, oh fucking I'm being told to do or invited to play a certain way, and it's justn't like I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? Um I'm do do you I haven't asked about swearing, I still swear fucking go for it. Um yeah, I I think I knew at the time, I was like, fucking hell, this like but I'll tell you what, when I was playing really well when I was really absorbed and really with rugby, really in totally involved, there was no thought about others, and I knew that, and yet the way that I was trying to access myself at the time was by was through um thinking about what others were thinking, thinking about the next contracts with it. So it's it was counterintuitive. So I think part of me was like very aware that what I was how I was trying to create performance wasn't what aligned with what was performance for me. Um so yeah, I I could tell that I was complicating it, and I and what I could also see was there was there was people who I would put potentially had less capability or different capabilities to me, um, and yet what I could see was they had more access to the capability they had, and it was definitely to do with how they were seeing it. I'll give an example. Like I played a little bit at the top level um of rugby in France, mainly in the in the second division, and you'd get loan players from the top division down to our team, and they weren't all in the politics and the selection and this and that. They actually kind of came in like I'm brilliant, I'm just gonna play. They probably weren't like that in their their loan e-club, um, but coming down to our level, so to speak, they were like very they gave themselves permission to do it how they wanted, and I could just see them be brilliant, even though you know they might have been they might have had less capability in certain areas than me, and I always thought that's fascinating. I was like, oh, they see it differently, and they're performing at they've got a higher level of access to all that they can be, and I it was just very interesting because I could see I could see that at the time. Um so yes, and as we've explored this, I can tell that at the time I could see that something was a bit off. Um and taking responsibility for that um it was me um letting my being aware of how my mind was interfering and allowing that to continue without understanding it a bit more. I was doing my best with what I knew at the time, and I love myself for that, and there's no no blame to myself or anything. Um just an acceptance and you know it's got me to where I am and I and I love where I am so and who I am.

SPEAKER_00: 13:42

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, because as for me, I don't think in my organizations I would have had that awareness at the time. There's no danger for me. There's something off. But that I was probably behaving and conforming to to a generalization were away, and I didn't I didn't know any different. It just felt uh there's just a bit of a pull. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:06

What I hear there though is it it it really, really depends whether you're serious about performance, whether that's your biggest desire, or whether um fitting in, being liked, being right, whatever. See, like if if you're in the and and I'm taking a swing, I can actually I'll talk from my experience. If in rugby you're trying to fit in, and if that's your biggest desire, and it's not your biggest desire isn't performance, then the type of assessment you're gonna be is all about fitting in, and you won't be seeing. Oh, if I was thinking about performance, would I be playing for anyone but myself? No, I you know, I probably wouldn't, but so you know, I can imagine in the forces uh actually I'm not gonna I'm just gonna keep talking about rugby. I can see how in rugby fitting in really got in the way of performance for a lot of people, or looking good got in the way. Um playing for contracts got in the way, it's um yeah. So I guess it depends what why you were doing what you were doing. Yeah, if you were really trying to be the best the best coach or the best in the special forces, maybe it'd have seen things differently, but maybe part of you wasn't, maybe a bigger part of you was trying to fit in, and and not that there's anything wrong with that, it's a it's a normal human concern, and it from why I experience it gets in the way of our access to to um our infinite uh capabilities.

SPEAKER_00: 15:42

Yeah, I'd I would agree. And in my personal case, then that would have been yeah, performance probably came a second to being accepted.

SPEAKER_01: 15:50

Yeah, right, yeah. And that's perfect because that was what you wanted at the time, right? Or maybe subconsciously wanted um maybe if you you know chatted to a great coach as yourself, such as yourself, you may have gone, like, are you sure? Are you sure you want to fit in more than performance because you know your life's on the line here?

SPEAKER_00: 16:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I you know, but that that's no coincidence then after after playing that game, yeah, and I put it like that, that after five years, and I thought this isn't for me anymore, and that's probably a self-protection mechanism thing, you cannot play this game like that without potentially have paying a price.

SPEAKER_01: 16:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you you know, I don't know, loading your gun when actually you wouldn't because someone told you to, not because you you think it's the most effective thing to create whatever you guys are creating, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:38

Or simply like you said, with because your focus needs to be in one place, but if you're thinking something else, then yeah, you're not focusing on what you need to do, and and there's there's there's people behind you that that needs to be focused on on what you do.

SPEAKER_01: 16:50

So yeah, I think you know, the analogy that I use for that, and I've I've probably talked to you about it, but it's this you know, if you had a sand wall and you had to blow a hole through it and you had a pressure hose, would you split the pressure hose into two, three, four sprays, or would you just have all your energy going in in one direction? And obviously, if you wanted to blow a hole in the sand wall with a pressure hose, you'd have it all going in the same direction. So then you go, okay, well, where I'm where am I splitting my resource? I'm splitting it into acceptance here. Okay, cool. And actually, in the distinction that you just gave, acceptance versus um performance in in combat, you as you just pointed out, you're actually putting other people at risk there, um, and yourself. Um, so you know, then you go, right. In rugby, it's less obvious than that because you almost I almost created that I was more at risk if I wasn't accepted or liked by the coaches, because it almost almost survival was like being liked by the coaches, so in that sense, um because you're playing the game called Impress the Coaches for a New Contract, that it that becomes the A game instead of like playing the way you could, um, and so the survival instinct is to be liked by the big boss in that situation, um, and but and survival and and performance has nothing to do, they're not necessarily the same thing, and they're clearly not in sport. Playing well and and and continuing to live are not the same thing, and so be really careful, not careful, what be mindful of like uh am I surviving this or am I experiencing am I playing to win here?

SPEAKER_00: 18:45

What might like um playing to to impress actually look like in real life terms for for us that aren't as involved in rugby cow if you could paint a picture of that, one example?

SPEAKER_01: 19:01

I mean I could give you my rugby answer. I think everyone has an experience where and I and I will give my experience, but before that it's probably more powerful to people think like, ah, where was I where have I um done something which was I knew on some level was less effective because um I was trying to fit in or trying to be right or trying to look you know look a certain way or you know everyone's got lots of different um uh thing ways of being or ways of seeing that uh aren't very effective. Um so yeah, in rugby um you I might see it uh a hole and but my coach just says, no, I don't want you running it. This is a bad, this is not a good I'm thinking of an example that would resonate with people. I I was told I gotta hold the width here, right? And I'd be like, no, no, because yeah, I might be playing on the wing, but like what what made sense to me, I was thinking someone about this yesterday, like I was a uh big ball carrier. Uh like it was one of the things that I was good at was carrying the ball, and I just thought like half the time I was like, why am I standing out here and not getting the ball? Like, um, but then according to what the coach is saying, like, wait or be out here, like that sounds seems counterintuitive. Surely I'd just get on the ball as much as possible. So instead of going to the middle of the park more often and just carrying it, um, not in the in the way that a winger or a centre might, um, I was kind of like almost conforming to what the position tells me I should do, should do, which is interesting, rather than because it's all made up, there is no should. Um, I was conforming to that position rather than playing what was in front of me. Um, and so in rugby, it's like not being engaged with what is, but by taking a concept of what is, and the concept getting in the way of playing what's effective in life all the time. You know, um, I think this would be more relatable to people. It's just like people do it all the time, they're like talking the amount of time I've noticed until recently is it just occurred to me how much I'm having conversations that I don't care about because I'm like upset about um you know offending someone or saying something, and then I'm not saying what I I'm not talking about what I want to talk about. I'm wasting time spending, you know, doing turning up to events. I'm like, why the hell why am I here? I don't want to be here because I'm like more worried about like, oh well, if you're if Callum doesn't show up, then we'll stop inviting him. So like let's let's just fucking go to events you don't want to be at. It's just like ugh, anyway, so um having conversations that you don't want to have, like going to doing all sorts of things that work in the workplace, the amount of uh, you know, I work with some really high performers, and they're like the amount of meetings that I'm going to that have absolutely nothing to do with effectiveness for this organization, but we're there to be there, you know, we're not keeping the main thing the main thing.

SPEAKER_00: 22:20

Um yeah, I'm curious what you're all thinking right now. Again, I I but for me, just what leaps out is what what conversations do you love to have conversations like this.

SPEAKER_01: 22:39

Um I love to have conversations. Uh I I you know, I don't like talking about stuff that I don't know a lot about, and I'm not not in a narrow-minded way. It's just like you know, a lot of people are talking to me about like I don't like spending a lot of time in complaint. Um I don't like spending a lot of look, um I've talked to you about this before, like if a pen drops, right, you could see that like one way of looking at it is oh gravity. Gravity's what the reason why the pen drops. Another way is looking at uh I dropped a pen there. So I like and and I like conversations about where I might be dropping the pen. I like conversations where I can see workability and responsibility and possibility. I don't like having many conversations where I'm victim to gravity. And yeah, a lot of people talking about the weather and the politics and all this stuff. And like, if I was gonna do something about the weather, I was gonna do something about politics, I'd probably be interested in it, but I don't give a fuck about that stuff. So, like, I don't want to spend time, I don't want to talk about like the fucking road works, I don't give a shit. Um, and I'm pretty sure that what people people that know me just know that I just are on board of that. Like, I don't want to talk, and then I'm not saying to anyone that you should be telling people that you know these people know that I love them. In fact, maybe they don't always know that, but and I am I'm a pretty straight shooter. Uh yeah, there's times where I'll tolerate conversations I don't want to be in because the bigger desire is that the relationship is, you know, like sometimes my granddad talks about things and I'm like, but and what's more important to me in that time is that he's heard and uh and and that so I'm still in desire there. Uh I don't really feel much tension or um pulling apart of myself in that situation. Yeah, I just I like conversations that um increase possibility. I don't yeah, that I'm not saying that people aren't. I think there's a big difference between being victimized and being a victim. I think like definitely people are victimized, but being in the state where you're at the at the effect of life, I don't like conversations like that. I don't much like gossip, really. Uh my mind loves it. Uh uh makes it feel a bit ugly. So so talking about other people to create superiority in myself, like or or other and and and creating righteousness. Oh, have you seen that person wearing that stupid thing? I you know, I did a lot of that and I don't really like those kind of conversations anymore. Um, you know, this thing that I'm talking about here, I it develops, right? Like the stuff that I like talking about changes, of course. Um yeah, I think that'll probably give you some kind of answer. What what did you hear there?

SPEAKER_00: 25:28

It reminded me of a conversation I had last week with a with a guy. Um he's a bit candid because he thought he was being boring, and we were talking about the distinction between complex and complicated. We were going down a rabbit hole. I loved it. Lost in that conversation for an hour. And I've got more questions than I have answers. And that for the for me that's really healthy.

SPEAKER_01: 25:53

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, some kind of um some kind of curiosity involved in the conversation. And to be to be honest, like I don't think that uh anything is interesting inherently. I think that interest is if I if I'm not if I'm creating something that's not interesting, it's not because it's not interesting, it's because I'm not bringing interest to it. And there are certain things that I'm naturally thrown to being interested in, and I'd spend more time being, you know, interested and curious than those things. So what I'm not saying is that like, oh, I'm just gonna block out all of this shit because I I want to take responsibility for where, you know, I don't think anything is ever there's not many things that are inherently any particular way. Um I think that we have a lot more pen dropping um than we realise in in taking responsibility for how we see things and and how we show up to things and the the languaging we use. So yeah, um I what occurs to me is that that may all sound quite serious in some ways, and like I guess it is, and the other the kind of flip side to that is like I absolutely love um fucking around as well, like I love just silly shit, um but silly shit that isn't like critical or complaining, you know. I I I think that's fun for me. Um yeah, too right.

SPEAKER_00: 27:49

I was I was talking to a mate, and I'm not gonna give too many details away, but he was reminding me, he's a serious lad with a serious job, um, and he would have reminded me of it that his work, the giggling and the farting that we had over somebody's car. This is a few years ago, getting a photo of somebody's car, making an announcement for it on being on sale. Brilliant deal with all the tabs for the phone numbers underneath and the constant phone calls that this guy got asking about this car being for sale and the yeah, silly shit that I've I I find quite quite amusing as well. Um, yeah, yeah. Because I think I I think life is a game. I you say that a lot, I know that, and and and for me, it's to not necessarily to try and find the fun, yeah, but just take a step back sometimes, just zoom out a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 28:45

Um yeah, I think it's not the truth, it's the way I see. I don't I don't think life is anything, and it's very workable when I create it as a game, because I'm great at games, so I do say life as a game, and I'm fully aware that isn't like a truth. That is um me from my limited perspective creating it that because it because that works for me to see it like that. What I find interesting about games is that whilst games I get super involved in when I'm playing to win, and there's a level of seriousness, uh I'm very effective uh playing uh when joy is present. Um so the the idea of games is for it it it increases an element of of playfulness. Um look, you may you may know a lot more about this than me, but I what I find interesting about states of play is levels of neuroplasticity very high, and uh we learn a lot, and so I don't know it's not play just for play's sake, I just think play is a very effective way of of of of um creating and being effective. So um I I think if some people be like, oh, you're not being serious. Because I say loads of stupid shit. Well, but I am and almost because I know that's effective. I know when people think about seriousness and effectiveness, they get um all fucking details, details, details, and they like make life way harder than it wants to be. And I think if you come back to to to life as a game, it increases joy, and you see simplicity, and um, you know, I think I think people that work hard are idiots.

SPEAKER_00: 30:34

So what I hear then is presence, and and when I saw my younger kids, as you'll find out as well, mate. Congratulations, is is is that when they're that it's just curiosity, they're not thinking, it's curiosity, um, and uh and presence, so there's less thought in those moments, and and what I heard there was yeah, complex doing uh sorry, complicated doing lists, things as complex is is a dance and which requires a connection to presence. That's what I'm hearing for myself then.

SPEAKER_01: 31:08

Yeah, I that's great. That's what you heard. Um and it sounds like there's something workable there for you. Um yeah, presence is an interesting one. I mean, we we we had a little chat about uh the moment the other day, and the moment is always present. This thing that people are searching for is always present. Um which if you consider that it's always there, you go, right, so what makes it unavailable, or the feeling of it unavailable, and you go, Well, it's because I'm there. So being present for me is actually like me not being there, um as in the self-assessment that the mind is, it's not there, um, which I find interesting. Um I don't think that you can prescribe your way into it. I think you can notice what you can notice is where where you are showing up as an assessment, as this big thinking bot of morality and what's good and bad, and and and then there's other simple ways that look if there was one way of being present, then it wouldn't it there wouldn't be all these fucking millions of books written about it. Yeah, if there was a fucking way, there would just be like you know, instruction we'd all follow, and then we wouldn't be here fucking talking about it. Um but I do find it curious because I do like this that feeling. Um I do find it I like the feeling that's not even what I think I want to get at. I think it's really like a really powerful place and free place to live. This this idea of presence. What I become curious about is where my mind puts me, Callum, this idea of self, into get gets in the way. Um kind of understanding that, and the more I understand those parts of me that the more I understand them, I don't know, I'm not interested in getting rid of them, but I I see that the more I understand that about me, about what the more that I understand about myself, the less that would have control of me, and and so for example, um, I have like uh a big way of me getting through life early on was to be good at things, um to be right physically and mentally, and so being right is something that has like a comfortable place for me. Um, if you imagine in a group of people though, and you could be really enjoying the conversation, totally absorbed, or you can be sitting there going, She's wrong, oh they're wrong. Oh, how could I tell them? You know, and yeah, I just like like I like understanding that part, it's just like this little part of me that feels insecure, it's it has to be right, and then just in that noticing that that's what's going on, some life normally opens up to something else in that moment, something else becomes available. I'm not being used, I'm I'm actually open, and yeah, that's what I was thinking as you were talking about presence.

SPEAKER_00: 34:31

Love it. How did life open up for you to to step into coaching?

SPEAKER_01: 34:42

I think as I mentioned, like my whole life, it's just you're almost taught to speak like this as a coach, but it it genuinely is my experience. It's like it's just always been a something that I'm I don't know if it's like DNA, I don't know, it's just just I've just always been really curious about those things. I can't explain it, I just always wanted to know what people are up to and um what like the idea of creation and and I suppose achievement. Maybe I'm a little bit less enamoured by that word, but you know, success. I just I just always interested by people and what they're up to and and making making the most of what is and just like that in my whole life. And then in social groups, people would come to me with stuff like you know, oh kind of struggling with this, and I would just, you know, I it was just natural for me to to want to support people, and I I think that you know, a part of that is like I don't know if we're ever truly selfless. Uh I think there's an element of self always, and I think I enjoyed it. I think probably part of superiority is decided I can help people because I know I'd become better than them. But I I think there is part of that. In terms of like circumstantially, like a few things happened. Um I got an injury which ended my career. Uh so that kind of opened up to it ended ended my rugby career. Uh, so that opened coaching up there. Um, I suppose I got open to the idea of coaching because I don't know a professional athlete who doesn't have a coach uh someone to support. Um I I another way that I th I think the world opened coaching up to me was just I love learning and um that's like such a beautiful excuse in some ways because I love going on two hour walks and just listening to to shit um because it's fucking parcel development and poor shit But I think it's just like I think the coaching is a very curious uh career, isn't it? Like you so I guess that also like my just natural curiosity about things um kind of puts me in a position to cut where coaching lines are. Weird man, like I kind of always knew I I always know what I want. Like almost all the time I've got a North Star. I I don't and and I'm fucking ruthless. Like I don't I don't know if I've ever not got what I wanted. And not like in a narrow way, I just can't think that I was like fucking want that thing. Okay the word ruthless um the root word kind of means to be unpitying, and and I've always been like that about myself. If I want something, I'm not gonna pity, I'm not gonna get all sulky, I just fucking work it out. I'm good at that. And uh yeah, I just naturally wanted to do coaching. I say naturally, obviously learning along the way, but I was just like, right, that's the thing. I was playing rugby, and then I was like, oh, that's the new thing, I'm gonna do both until one falls away, and then one fell away or got taken away from me, and then I was like, fuck it, that's it. And uh I've never I don't really doubt that it's gonna work out. Like I'm very good at getting what I wanted, so I just knew what I wanted and did it.

SPEAKER_00: 38:49

When when rugby was taken away for you, away from you, how how was that experience for you, mate?

SPEAKER_01: 38:56

And yeah, I like I loved my transition. I loved my transition because I knew I was gonna do. Um, I saw a new possibility. I love the idea that my life would be bigger than just me. Uh rugby was incredibly selfish. I think it's hilarious how people go out, rugby players like team guys, it's like press rugby, it's a hundred percent an individual thing. I mean, even for the team to function, like it's I think it's very important that the people are thinking about their individual performance, like definitely like get better at certain things or improve your or obviously. Um so I I and I like the idea that my life would be starting to like shine the light over there to the other people and supporting them. Um can you repeat your question? Oh, transition. Yeah, the transition. I I got a brain injury uh and I continued playing um because I didn't know what I'd done. So I played like 10 games, and I was feeling fucked, like really bad migraines, memory loss, feeling horrible like drunk all the time, I wasn't feeling good. Um, and I it was quite confusing because I was told I was alright. I'm not blaming anyone here, I was told I was alright, and I went to see a neuro neurologist, and they're like, You definitely got post-concussion syndrome, um, mild traumatic brain injury and some scarring on your brain and stuff like that. And actually, as soon as I they said that, and they're like, We look you've played 10 games and you've made this worse and worse and worse, and like who knows if you didn't have the start of it before because if you head button walls, you're gonna probably do something like that, get get some damage. So, you know, it kind of quickly occurred to me as like, Oh, this might not happen, and then Kokiran, like probably a year, it was almost a year from when they discovered what it was that was going on to like get recovered and it wasn't getting better. And part of me um I I don't know many people that love rugby as much as I did, I really, really love it. And when you're looking at a brain injury, uh it's not like it's not like a bad knee, well, at least it wasn't for me. I was like, ooh, fucking hell. I want to have children, I want to do other stuff, and um so there was like a quick acceptance if that's what's going on. Like I I couldn't believe the guys that were like playing after they fucking broke their necks and stuff. Um whilst there was difficulty in the injury and the pain that that the migraines and stuff like that, there was also like this oh shit, okay. Like, as it didn't get better, and they were like, You're not gonna play again. I'm not gonna argue on a brain injury, to be honest. So I accepted it quickly, and as I said, there was this appealing new career once I was recovered, and it did take a I still get migrated a lot now from it. Um so um I'd say I had an amazing transition to honest. I've I've loved it. Probably um to touch on an earlier point, like I don't have to by the end of rugby, I was so done with like, oh, you're gonna do this in the gym, and then you're gonna be like, look, this is like this slapstick fucking everyone do the same thing, shit, and it's like we're all different, we're all different ages, shape sizes. I don't I don't have the gym as much as the other guys, so like what the fuck am I, you know. And so what one thing that really opened up as I was leaving was like this possibility of doing what I wanted more often, and um there was definitely an excitement about that. Um I I hate being told what to do. Um so and as I said, I had grandfather who did what you know he he uh he loved photography, so he made a great and he worked for himself, dad works for himself. It's like you did that, it just seemed obvious to me. So yeah, I I really focused on possibility more than anything.

SPEAKER_00: 43:37

Uh yeah. I I I love that Caroline. What I think is interesting is that I I don't think that is the norm, though, for people to have potentially their their identity or their passion taken away from like that, and that that that there'll be things under the surface that they'll struggle with and in terms of those transitions. If if you were supporting somebody through true through transition, what where would you be probing? Where would you be shining a spotlight or or or helping them create possibility or space to reflect around transition?

SPEAKER_01: 44:18

Um I don't know because it depends what they want. I'm after people getting what they want, what they really, really sincerely desire. And so to say, like, oh, I would do this with someone wouldn't make sense to me. I'd have to understand what they want, and one thing that I would say happens a lot is that um self-image uh limits people, uh how they see themselves um limits their ability to create what they want to create. Um your actions correlate, I've tried to mention this to you before, but your actions correlate to your perspective, how you see the world, or how life occurs to you. There are three main occurrences: how you see yourself, how you see the world, and how you see the tasks. So if you see yourself as a fucking loser, you're probably gonna see what a fucking loser sees. If you see the world as threatening, you're gonna you go to London, some people like London's fucking shit, and no one no one wants to say hi. So people that say London's shit and no one wants to say hi, they don't say hi to anyone. Why would you? If you're like London's full of people doing their best and um uh and people uh lovely, and you then what happens? You go to the coffee shop, you're like hi, and you and it actually the you the world starts to whirv you like that, and then there's the task, you know. If you see your task as a fucking drag, like how do you what type of action are you gonna take? So I'm really curious when people are saying well, they won't I'm listening to how they create themselves occurring in the world, how the world occurs to them, and how the task in front of them occurs to them, and in that occurrence of self, I think it's really interesting you mentioned identity. Um, because we relate through um I am, right? We say um I am a rugby player, so it doesn't take much self-inquiry to realise that's not what you are. Um because who are you when you're not playing rugby? Who are you before you played, who are you afterwards, it's still me. Like I'm still me, regardless of what I'm doing. So you go, oh shit, the the what I am is not what I do, and that is really liberating for a lot of people. You're not what you do. Um, and that I'm not saying that as like the truth, and like as a prescription for something to be like, oh yeah, I've just got to disconnect from everything. That just seems what's real to me. So it's like I'm the same as I was at five, like this awareness of self that I am is fundamentally you could remove everything, thoughts, feelings, activities. Um, every cell on my body is different. And yet, to the what to the to what to to to who I was as a five-year-old, and yet like this knowing of self is is always been present. So the the I am that sits there is nothing to do with what I do. I think that's really interesting. And and athletes who are like, I am this, is like, well, uh no, I don't believe that because when you're not playing rugby, you're still you, so it doesn't really make sense to me. Uh it may for other people. Um, and I really like choosing like to say I'm gonna be the best coach in the world right now. I love doing that. I love I love um assuming a domain to live in that's effective. I love being I love saying I am being love or I'm whatever. I love I love creating a context in which to meet the world. I normally relate to that through the I am, but I'm always aware that like, yeah, and it's a fucking thing that I'm choosing to do that's effective in this moment. It's not the it's not the thing, you know, like you know, you're clearly more than uh you know special forces person. It's it's not what you are, it's something you did, right? And that's why you're still here, uh, even though you're not doing special operations right now. Um, so to answer your question, I don't know what I'll do with people. I'd probably probably do something like focus on what they want, listen to how they create themselves. This perspective that I was talking about is creating language, so you just talk to people, you create perspective in language or in languaging, and that that's not just words, it's body language, just all sorts of things. Um, and and then yeah, just sort of doing some inquiry for them. Maybe someone would be like, No, I am a rugby player. If you took that away from me, I'd be dead, and I'd be like, sweet, cool. You're probably not gonna want to pay me to work with you. Not because we have to agree, but probably because there's not much workability from what I can see. But maybe I would work with them because it'd be fun anyhow.

SPEAKER_00: 49:22

Yeah. There'll be some lessons in there. Mate, you've um you've you've mentioned a couple of things a fair few times integrity, possibility, that workability, uh effectiveness. I'm I'm curious, is is is there a distinction that that that guides you or you that you have a favourite distinction or the most meaningful to you?

SPEAKER_01: 49:43

Um I no um what I want guides me and then the distinction kind of develops from knowing what I want. So um I don't another way of saying that it'd be like for me what's important is to know what I want and then the process develops. I don't want to look through the process to what I want because the pro looking through the process would not allow me to see what I want. So if the if I'm looking through if I'm starting from a distinction or a way of seeing, um it that may actually block the the seeing of what I want. So in other words, I I probably do it in the reverse order. What's more work was like, what do I want, and then like what distinction or way of seeing empowers me. So I don't know. Oh, what I want is to uh go on holiday. Now I might look at holiday and go, like, oh, I could decide on where to go, I can choose. That's a really great distinction for me where decisions are rationale, reason, justification. But a lot of people get really clammed up in the idea of deciding where to go on holiday. Whereas choice is just free will. I just choose. It's like an intuitional thing. And I always find like so, for example, on holiday, I'd much rather choose where to go on holiday than decide and sit on these fucking websites and work out what's fucking 100 quid cheaper and all these bollocks. I'd rather just be like, I want to go on holiday, I'm gonna choose, boom, it's there. So that distinction is like one that shows up quite often as a powerful way of accessing what I want. Um, but yeah, I don't there are there probably there are ways that I see without knowing that I see that way or without even choosing it. There are distinctions, there are domains that I'm within that we're all in. Um when we wake out of their context that you just you dwell in. Um yeah, there's not like a favourite, there's just what what's effective according to what we want to create, I suppose. Love it. Does it do what do you hear there? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00: 52:25

No, I love it. I uh I'm taking notes for me as well. I think this is this is brilliant. My cure I I'm uh I'm I'm present with you, and then when my curiosity spikes, I'll write it down, and if it stays, then I'll ask about it. So yeah, what I'm hearing there is the power of knowing what we want, and uh and then creating this the seeing and the distinction around that. So that I I love that the decisions versus choice, yeah, just choosing and yeah, rather than 700 quid.

SPEAKER_01: 52:58

I'm not trying to like say that you have to have a North Star because you know, one distinction that I often think about is if I was to say um journey to you, if I was to distinguish, and this is not like in the dictionary, but if I distinguish journey from exploration um exploration, what do you how would you distinguish those things?

SPEAKER_00: 53:26

Yeah, so what pops straight into my brain is probably uh a journey would be a vehicle on a set route, on a certain road, time distance, it would be quite calculated and knowable, as exploration would be um unprepared, uh having a direct yeah, a direction rather than than an exact route. Um yeah, wicked.

SPEAKER_01: 53:51

Um there's no right or wrong here. I I'd probably distinguish it very, very similar. So I think a journey, I'm I know I'm at A and I know where B is. Um, and then exploration is like I know I'm at A and I don't know where I'm gonna go, right? And I think, and I really like going to places and I know what I want is to explore. So there is no B, there's just a pure exploration. So people might be sitting there like, Oh, what if you don't know what you want? Have you ever then but then that but that would be a fun thing for me to go and explore to follow my curiosity and see how it unfolds. So I'm not saying you have to know exactly what you want all the time. I think it's very workable and powerful, and I don't think you can actually be workable without knowing what you want, because what would you effective and workable towards what? Things can only be effective or workable if there's something to be effective and workable towards. And there's times in your life where yeah, it's just pure curiosity and exploration. And like I love the surrender experiment, uh, the book, where he's just like letting it unfold. But that that's his north-star, right? Here's an all-star is to see what life puts in front of him and then give himself to what wants to come through him, and that in its own way is an all-star, but he's definitely more exploration, the journey, and I think that can be that can be perfect too. Um, well, it's all perfect. Um, so yeah, I'm not kind of trying to prescribe that you have to know every every everything you want, and sometimes the way that I might distinguish that for me is like I'm clear that I don't know exactly what it is, so what I want to do is explore.

unknown: 55:21

Nice.

SPEAKER_01: 55:22

So I'm kind of just thumbing in knowing what want somewhere in there, just in a convoluted way.

SPEAKER_00: 55:28

Does that does that land for you? Yeah, yeah, big time. Yeah, experiments is what jumps out at me. Experiment, go again.

SPEAKER_01: 55:35

Yeah, yeah, I think it's funny. I like experimenting.

SPEAKER_00: 55:40

Carol, is there anything that you feel compelled to mention or talk about as we start to draw this conversation to a close?

SPEAKER_01: 55:53

Um I feel compelled just to say that I'm not um like hung up on anything that I say being the way or um as something you anyone has to do uh or being right. Um I think it'd be fun just to see what I typically uh drop limits when I notice that I disagree with people. When I disagree with people, I like kind of normally go, oh shit, that means I've got some limit there. So anyone that's like listening, I think it'd be really fun to like I I just not interested in you agreeing with me, actually, more interested when you disagree and see what's see what's um what um what what you see in that moment and and get curious about that. I think the other thing is like if we had this conversation tomorrow, I'd come out with like different answers as well, and I think that's also perfect, and like nothing I'm saying is concrete. And maybe there are some interesting, maybe there are some interesting ideas there. Um I um I think I think that that's me completely there. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 57:19

Well, Carl, thanks very much for joining me on this world-class podcast, mate. Um thanks thanks for taking the time to speak to us, for speaking what's on your heart, on your mind. Thank you for your support, your encouragement, your love. Thanks for who you're being. Um it means a lot. Um, as I've told you before, I'm challenged and grateful and loved when I'm in your presence. So so thank you for that, mate. Um, yeah, it's been my pleasure to speak to you today.

SPEAKER_01: 57:47

Oh, thanks so much. Um loving what you're about and loving you and loving this opportunity to talk. So thank you very much. Um don't want to don't want to ruin the recording, but when we hang up, are we done or are we staying on the call?

SPEAKER_00: 58:02

Let's shoot the shit for two minutes, mate.

SPEAKER_01: 58:05

Afterwards, okay, cool.