Forging Resilience
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Forging Resilience
S3 Ep 85 Joe Rowntree: When Success Feels Empty
Joe Rowntree spent years chasing the buzz on stage as a stand-up, in casinos, and on nights out that ended with him stabbed on Las Ramblas in Barcelona. A diagnosis of ADHD, a wrecked bank account and a battle with anxiety forced him to rethink what he was really chasing.
In this episode we talk about anxiety as the price we pay for a future-focused brain, why “making it” can feel strangely numb, and how booze, gambling and performance can become DIY medication for an unsettled mind. Joe shares how he rebuilt from GA meetings and therapy into Anxiety Uncovered, helping young people understand their own brains.
If you’re a high performer who looks fine on the outside but feels restless, wired or empty on the inside, this one will land close to home.
If you’re a parent, teacher, or high performer navigating change, this conversation offers grounded strategies and a humane perspective. You’ll hear how to turn anxiety from saboteur into fuel, why success is an inside job, and how small daily reps, awareness, a single “hello” can rewire a life.
Listen, share it with someone who needs it, and if it helps, subscribe and leave a review so more people can find these tools.
Get in touch with Joe via Instagram or website.
Welcome to Fortune Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Aaron Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they've faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today I'm joined by Joe Roundtree, and today we're sitting down to talk about the stories behind the stage, the brain, and breakthroughs. Joe is a stand-up comedian, a writer, presenter, who's got a degree in psychology. He hosts Anxiety Uncovered, a podcast helping people or young people make sense of anxiety and build practical tools for life. He's a seasoned performer who knows what it's like to face nerves, take hits on the stage, and get back up again. Today we'll explore challenge, change, and the real that the reality of anxiety. I'll stay in. And what it means to stay grounded when the spotlight's on. Joe, welcome to the show, mate. Thank you very much for having me, Aaron. Pleasure to be here. Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, looking forward to this conversation, mate. Um, Joe, give us a bit uh of your background story that's that's relevant for us here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so well, thanks for that great introduction. Yeah, all those things. It makes you realise that, oh, you know, I'm lived a bad life after all. Um I guess, you know, a lot of a lot of why I do what I do is because I have probably doubted myself a lot over the years. Um, you know, there's no wonder I'm quite an anxious person because I sort of continually put myself into anxious, anxiety-provoking situations, you know, being a being a stand-up comedian, people often go, oh, you're so brave. And it's like, yeah, okay, but with that comes, yeah, a lot of a lot of self-doubt because you know, you're putting yourself out there to the world. Um, but it's something that I've always wanted to do. And I think, you know, now I'm I started doing stand-up when I was sort of 17 years old, I'm now 43. And when I I look back at sort of why I've done that and the person I am now, um, you know, you think, why were you doing that? You know, it's a bit of an odd thing to do, isn't it? Just go out at night and try and make strangers laugh. Um, but yeah, it's something I've always been drawn to. So I've always been a performer, uh, stand-up, done TV work, done writing in TV, did a psychology degree, like you said, and always been interested in personal development. Worked in schools now for nearly two decades, working with young people, um, helping them with mindset, motivation, memory, and more recently, anxiety. And yeah, I I launched a podcast and a program called Anxiety Uncovered to help with this epidemic of anxiety that we're seeing with teenagers. So, yeah, in a nutshell, that's sort of yeah, where where I'm at and where we're up to.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, love it. Mate, take us. Can you remember the first time you stood up on stage and gave a uh comedy performance?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember it was in a pub in Southfields in London, and my brother came along with his mate, and yeah, I just got up there and was absolutely terrified. I brought this massive stuffed tiger on stage and just brought it on stage and just pretended I was a circus ringmaster and I was wearing a purple Gucci shell suit. I didn't have a bloody clue what I was doing, but I knew that I wanted to be on the stage, and that's that's all I had. Stuff stuffed tiger and a purple Gucci shell suit. That was it. Pretending to be a ringmaster, and then I I brought on this big stuffed tiger, and everyone's like, isn't that funny? And everyone's a bit like, yeah, if you say so, Jack.
SPEAKER_02:Oh mate, yeah. I I I guess we make so many assumptions about people that stand on stage and that they don't feel nerves or they don't feel anxious. Um, they've all got it all sussed out. How do you manage yourself before you get on stage, or how did you? And and does that change over time in terms of all those feelings?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, looking back, so in July I was diagnosed officially with ADHD. Now I've had a bit of a bit of a tricky relationship with this whole idea of getting diagnosed and ADHD in and of itself. Um when I got the assessment, I didn't open the document for about three months because there was a bit of fear behind it. I mean, I've always known that my brain is probably a little bit different to everyone else's, um, and I guess probably a bit sceptical about ADHD in and of itself, which I think a lot of people are. I know my mum is definitely, and there are a lot of people that just think it doesn't exist. Um, but there is a reason why you know I started gambling when I was nine years old, um, and I've always been attracted to slot machines, the bright lights, uh attracted to doing stand-up. And what I realise now is that I was probably self-medicating through performing, through, through gambling. Um, and it it it got out of hand uh, you know, sort of 10 years ago. It it got to a point where I nearly lost everything um through internet gambling. You know, it started off sort of nine, ten years old, going down the arcades and skeg nest, two penny pushers, slot machines, to the point where you know you're an adult and you can go into casinos, and then the online world opened up and it it it got quite it got quite bad, you know, devastating amounts of money that I lost. Um and yeah, I I think I was using performance, gambling, to to to medicate a brain that was dysfunctional and dopamine, which I I realise now is a lot of what ADHD is about, and I recognise now that that's probably what I was doing just to feel feel normal. But to answer your original question, which was how do you prepare yourself to go on stage? I mean, now I'm a bit of a bit of a master at it, you know. I've got a whole routine, I've got a whole process that I go through. You know, if I'm doing a big show like a panto, or I've got a big gig that night, I mean the show starts at about 10 o'clock in the morning. It'll be you know going through my routine, it'll be doing some exercise, it'll be visualization, I do a lot of breathing. Um the physiological size, one that I use all the time, you know, the two inhales in through the nose, one big, one small, long, long extended exhale. I do that all the time just to settle the nervous system. So, yeah, and it's just through a process of doing it time and time again. You know, I've got hours and hours and hours of stage time, classroom time, workshop time, panto time. So I've gone from terrified 17-year-old going on stage full of nerves and anxiety with a stuffed tiger and a Gucci shell suit to now quite a calm, relaxed 43-year-old where I can sort of just be okay with the awkward silences. If I'm not getting anything back, I know that I can always do something that makes it work and I guess just become more comfortable in my own skin. You know, even preparing for this podcast, I was a bit like, oh, what's he going to ask me and what am I gonna say? And I'm like, Joe, just leave it to the moment. You know, you've got enough experience, you've got enough performing time. You've been in these situations enough where stuff will come out. Aaron's a great host, he'll ask me a question, and I'll just riff in between and probably go off tangent a million times, like I have done in the last two minutes of talking.
SPEAKER_02:Love it, but that's what it's all about, then, mate. And and that's what it's all about. Um but that's an interesting question because I was gonna ask you, I thought, nah, don't be arrogant, but I will. Because do you get nervous then before you even come on a podcast? Because I do, because for me, what has changed, maybe I don't have stage time like you, not being on TV yet. Um you're on TV now.
SPEAKER_00:You're on my TV.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks, Joe. You look great, that's why you're here. Um that yeah, my I my maybe my feelings and emotions don't change, but what I make them mean about me has. So I do feel nervous before I record. Um, it's not coincidence that I often stumble through my introductions until just I settle myself. But now I don't make that mean anything about me. In fact, what I what I choose to see is that I care about this conversation, yeah, and that that potentially it's gonna help and serve somebody. There's a so there's a responsibility for me. So, yeah, I'm just curious. Did you get nervous or do you get nervous before even these these small yet world-class um appearances, mate?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, is the answer. I get nervous before every single performance every time I go on stage. However, the difference between you know, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, two years ago, two hours ago, is I think just that constant putting yourself in that situation and knowing what that feels like and being able to deal with it and channel it in a different way. So, you know, before this podcast, I did a podcast interview with my podcast yesterday. I felt a little bit nervous, but uh not half as nervous as I would maybe if I went on stage in front of 2,000 people. But even that's become uh a bit easier. It's all about the prep and I guess how you respond to those feelings when you get them. So yeah, I I still get nervous, but I think I've learnt just to talk to myself in a kinder way and just say, Look, Joe, you know, sometimes you just gotta go, fuck it, it's gonna be alright. It always is alright, but I think that that trust has only come about through the reps of doing it loads of times. It's not it's not an arrogant, oh fuck it, I don't care, it'll be fine. It's Joe, you've done this for 20 years, you know what you're doing now. I'm not saying that I know everything because there's still so much more to learn, but I just trust, I think I think it's about trust, it's about trusting yourself that you've been there, you've done it before, and you can do it again.
SPEAKER_02:Do you find then with with the experience and the exposure that that you've had that the thrill lessens or there's less of a buzz?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think you're right. I mean yeah, I mean first time I ever went to the London comedy store as a sort of very, you know, I guess excitable 16-year-old. My mum smuggled me into the comedy store illegally, so you had to be 18 to go in there, and I watched these guys perform in this bunker underground, and my face, my face came out hurting because I was laughing so much, and just my brain was just on fire, it was electrified. I was like, wow, always wanted to be a comedian, seeing it on TV, but when you see it live, you're like, Well, hang on a minute. These people, for a living, they get paid to stand on stage and make people laugh, and they make people feel like I just did then. My face is hurting, I want to do that. So I pretty much spent the rest of my you know, school life, university life trying to figure it out to the point where I got my first five-minute spot at the London Comedy Store. That went really, really well. And the owner, Don Ward, was like, you know, you you you've got something there, son. So he goes, right, let's give you a 10-minute slot. Did my 10-minute slot after about seven minutes? Started to get a little bit quiet. People weren't really laughing. After about eight minutes, people started booing. After about nine, ten minutes, the whole 400 people were like, Boo. And take into account at this particular gig, I'd invited all my friends, all my family, and my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, bless her, she didn't leave me after that gig. Um was she booing? Yeah, yeah, she was booing. Well, she um she actually came into the dressing room afterwards and she was gonna like eviscerate the compare for being so horrible because as I came off stage to absolute silence and booze, the compare came on and goes, Well, that was shit. And and and this is 400 people erupting into a spontaneous round of applause. Oh, like, yeah, finally, you know, this someone's come on and save the show. And yeah, I had to sort of stop my wife, you know, coming into attack the compare. Because I was like, Don't this is this is a comedy store, you you can't come into the dressing room. I mean, these are like the world greats, you know, Robin Williams had played there, you know, Seinfeld, you know, every everyone who's anyone has played the comedy store. So it's moments like that where you're like, shit, I thought I had this together. You know, I was what 18 years old, been told that like my last set was great. So yeah, sink or swim, I guess, after that. But in my head, I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm I'm gonna do this. You know, you can't, you know, you can't stop me. So from that point, it took me, not that I was counting, but four years and 107 days from that time I got booed off stage. I did another eight ten-minute spots, and then after that one, Don Ward said, Who do you think I should take off the bill to put you on? Do you think you're ready? And let's take into account, you know, there was Kevin Bridges, there was Mickey Flanagan, there was Reginald D. Hunter, and honestly, I was that confident and I knew I'd put the time in to go, no, look, I you know, put put me on stage with any of those guys, I'll do as well. And he was like, Alright, okay, well, book you in a weekend, then book you in a 20. And then, you know, I'd I'd done it, you know, I'd got paid to do 20-minute weekend slots at the London Comedy Store, and that was just like, you know, I've got the got the picture up there, you know, it's like that was that's what it was all about. There it is. So so to answer your question, I've been doing that for for 10 years, and I got to a point where I actually closed the store, which which meant that I mean they don't have headliners there because everyone's a headliner at the comedy store. I got to a point where I'd closed the London comedy store on a Saturday night, and I remember walking through Leicester Square going, I've done it and I didn't feel anything. I was pretty dead inside. I was like, Well, na now what? Because I'd gone through the experience of getting the accolades, the applauses in in that room, which like I said, the first time I experienced it was just like out of this world. So yeah, I think you get to a point where you you feel, I've I've done that now, and now what? Now now where do I go?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Mate, it's it's really interesting because uh half an hour before this, I recorded the other episode um with with a guy, Ollie, and he was talking about a similar situation, but in business, you know, he'd hit a financial metric which he'd been aiming for all his life, yeah. Felt nothing. Um, and so which leads me on to the question: what do you think you were seeking then through comedy that you didn't find even once you quote unquote made it and felt nothing?
SPEAKER_00:I think I've always been chasing a feeling, I think I've always been chasing a thrill. I think because of the way my brain is, I've always been chasing those dopamine hits. And whether it's through performance, whether it's through gambling, whether it's through drugs or alcohol, I think we're all trying to seek just this feeling of belonging, of being. And when you get there, it's a bit like, yeah, you spent all this time chasing it, and then when you get there, you're a bit like I think I'm done now. But that's not to say that along the way I wasn't experiencing it because it's thrilling, it's amazing. I think you know, I was experiencing it and I was having the thrills all along the way, but I think you get to a point where you're sort of done, you know, and there there needs to be a point where okay, I I need to now see the next thing, the progression, and I think that's through just changing as a human being, evolving. I mean, you know, I know there's different research out there, but I think on average, research shows that every seven years, every single cell within our body regenerates, so we're we're technically different people, and you know, I I think, and I look back seven years, I'm very different to what I was then to what I was now, and I guess now I'm and we all are to a certain extent, seeking seeking something different, new thrills, new experiences, new highs. Um so yeah, I I can relate to that, just that feeling of oh, I thought I'd be I thought I'd feel a lot different, but I actually feel pretty numb.
SPEAKER_02:I in a different world, the same thing for me in terms of reaching a pinnacle of my military career, but I felt nothing, and it reminds me of the the saying you can never get enough of what you don't need. So it wasn't I didn't I didn't need to do that to feel belonging or or or valuable, and for me it's uh it's a reflection um that it's an inside job, it's about creating that for ourselves, not going out into the world and and trying to get it through external or or or doing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think a lot of the reasons why people do stand up. I mean, you know, you meet quite a lot of yeah, quite sort of needy, narcissistic, egotistical sorts of people in in that industry, and I guess I I was all those to a certain extent, that's why I did it. But it's a bit like I said, it's a bit of an odd thing to do, just to go out and want to make strangers laugh. You know, what is the what is the need there? What is the void you're trying to fill? Um, but now I yeah, like you say, success is an inside job. It's like I I feel I've done a lot of work on myself. I've had a lot of therapy, I've had a lot of counselling, I've read a lot of books, joined the OP where where we met, and I feel I've done so much work inside work that I don't actually need stand-up anymore. I don't need that external validation because I've sort of validated myself from from the inside. So now for me, it's about how can I help others? Now I've now sort of fixed myself, now I know how I operate as a human being, and now I understand why I was doing all the things I was doing. How can I use that power, that knowledge to then help other people? It's which is why I'm I'm doing anxiety uncover because I was a very confused, very insecure, very I guess fragile human being like we all are, until we we figure it out. And now when the when the pennies dropped of what anxiety is and how I can I think explain it very simply in a user-friendly way to teenagers, and when they realise that they're not alone and anxiety isn't something they necessarily need to fear, then when you see those light bulb moments go off and you get feedback from teachers and young people to say, Oh, thank you, you've really helped me. I now understand who I am and what I'm all about, and you've helped me achieve XYZ. For example, on episode seven of the podcast, Daisy, when she came into my workshop, you know, she wouldn't even come in out of fear of having to say her own name. And eventually our pastoral manager brought her in. We went through the workshop, and two years later, she's now head girl of the school, and she's doing presentations in front of 1,400 people. I'm not saying that was just me, it was a a team approach, it was parents, it was school, it was a combination of different things. But when you see students and young people go through those transformations, that's that's what makes it worthwhile now for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, love it, mate. Love it. Yeah, it's a definite um, yeah, it's valuable the impact of of sharing story and our work. But before we're going on to our anx anxiety and and and and the podcast, Joe, I'm just curious to take you back onto that the where you got a booed off stage, and and and not because I'm like that, but but for people that for people that have big setbacks or when expectation doesn't meet reality, uh how how did you personally recover from that? I mean, I know you said you're really dead set on on going again, but even like late later on in your career, I'm I'm I'm sure being a human that you are, you've made mistakes. How how do you recover from mistakes um on on stage, for example?
SPEAKER_00:I think with any pursuit, I think your passion, your desire has got to be greater than your fear. Nice, you know, so you've got to you've got to want this more than anything, and you're prepared and not that I was prepared at the time because you don't realise the setbacks often until they happen. But I think every time a setback happens, it's like you have a choice, don't you? You have a choice to go, well, I I carry on or I you know I don't because uh that pain of uh failure or that pain of challenge is uh is more than your uh desire to do it. And I think sometimes it it's good to be in those situations because it makes you realise actually I don't want to do this. But I but I always did. But then it got to a point where I don't think I do anymore, you know, and in the last sort of I guess couple of months of doing gigs, there's been certain gigs where it hasn't gone particularly that well, or I'm trying to bed new material in, and I'm like, I just haven't got the the passion or the desire to do it like I used to, and I think sometimes anxiety and failure can actually be a a messenger, it can actually be something within us going, no, this isn't this isn't for you. The reason you feel like the reason you feel anxious is because maybe you need to go in a different direction. So I think it's a good uh test for authenticity as well, you know. Are you being your authentic self? You know, anxiety can sometimes help guide you with that.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I think in terms of how do you recover from it I guess it's just uh Yeah, I guess it's just uh yeah it's it's about knowing whether that's that's something that you wanna i I I just it's a feeling I think. I think it's a feeling.
SPEAKER_00:So talk to us about an anxiety and and what that means for you So I think anxiety for me was just this constant feeling of being on edge and high alert and it just the the the the brain stuff, it was the thought stuff, it was I got to a point where I generally thought that I was going a little bit crazy because I had a voice inside my head that wouldn't stop, that was really, really persistent and was telling me all sorts of things. It was almost like I had a voice inside my head that was telling me that I was a piece of shit, that uh I wasn't very good, and that um yeah, I should just stop doing what I'm doing. It's the imposter syndrome, it's a it's a self-doubt. And when I first went into therapy um after well, a few incidents, I've had a few rock bottoms, one of them was being attacked in Barcelona. Shit and yeah, shit. That's where you live, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got I got stabbed in Barcelona. Um really?
SPEAKER_02:Do you not know that? No, I know it was an incident. I was gonna ask about that, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I was on a stagdo uh about 15 years ago in a place called Las Ramblas, as I'm sure you know, and I wandered off. I was gonna guess anywhere it would be in there. Yeah. So I wandered off from my group. Um, I was in fancy dress, and yeah, I I was a bit silly, I was drunk, I was out of control and made myself vulnerable. And yeah, I got I got mugged. Someone I think saw a gold chain round my neck, they tried to grab it, and I put up a bit of a fight. These four lads came up to me, one in the middle just gave me a big bear hug. I think he had knuckle knives, one in the back, one in the leg, and yeah, passed out on the cobbles of Las Ramblas and yeah, got taken to the the Delma hospital and yeah, woke up, been put into this MRI scanning machine and yeah, not really knowing why I was there and went to the hospital. Mates didn't know where I was because uh everything got stolen and yeah, about a day later they found me in hospital, half dresses, where's Wally? Can make it up. So yeah, I guess it's it's moments like that, the rock bottoms where yeah, I I realised that I'd I had a lot of work to do on myself, and it's at that point where this voice got a little bit out of control, and I told a therapist about it, and they were like, Oh, everyone has a little voice inside their heads. I'm like, really? What a voice that constantly tells them they're not good enough. They're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh everyone's got one of those. I was like, Wow, okay, what's that called then? They were like, Oh, it's something called um you know, thinking errors, cognitive distortions, and it was that moment when I actually opened up about my struggles and what I was experiencing on the inside, and when someone normalised it, it was at that point where I started to recover and go, right, okay, so I'm not the only one that experiences this. Everyone has a voice of self-doubt in their heads, and this is okay, I'm okay, I'm not broken. So, yeah, that's why I'm such an advocate of people opening up and and talking to others because you know, there's you know, there's no mystery as to why you know the the suicide rate amongst men is so high, especially you know, under 50s, it's it's sky high. I mean the stats of men committing suicide is is is ridiculous. I think it's you know like what one every every minute or something like that. I mean it's it's bonkers, and I think that's because men don't typically talk about how they feel because they're supposed to be men and men are supposed to man up and just get on with it. That's very much the message that I think society puts out, and I think now it's it's changing. I think I think men, we are all more open to chat and more conversations about how we feel, you know, just having this chat with you. I mean, it helps both of us, doesn't it, to a certain extent. 100%, mate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and as we as we alluded to when we're talking about the this podcast, that's that's what it's all about. This this is a valuable conversation for me, otherwise we wouldn't be having it. And then the the luxury I have is I get to put out put this out into the world, um, regardless of whether people boo it off stage or not, because it's it's value, it's valuable for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope you're not gonna boo it.
SPEAKER_02:No, definitely not, mate. I there's a few chuckles, and I'm not sure if they are well-timed or not, but being a comedian, I know that there's there'll be a separation from from the jokes you make and from who you are, so that that allows me to step into that and and chuckle about yeah, finding where's Wally who happened to be in the hospital.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I think there is there is comedy, you know. They say comedy is tragedy plus time. It's like I think a lot of a lot of comedy is trying to process tragedy or trying to make sense of shitty situations or frustrations, you know, and I think that's where the best comedy is. It's not like you know, it's not someone going on stage and going, hey guys, my life's great, you know, isn't you know, isn't it isn't it good when we're all happy? It's like no, isn't life a bit shit? And isn't it okay to laugh at it sometimes? And I think that's where the best comedy comes from. Yeah, it's interesting actually.
SPEAKER_02:What what what jumps out as me is uh is is a mate who who openly now that he has done a lot of reflection and and and intros uh yeah introspection, I think is the word. I'll have I should have Googled that before it came on, but that that he uses comedy and jokes as as a mask, as a defense. So if he's feeling insecure, what he'll do, as so many of us do, is whack is it is throw it back in somebody else's face or or highlight them so he doesn't have to be highlighted. Um yeah, which obviously gets a lot of laughs and it does what it needs to do, but really it's uh it can be a protection mechanism as well, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think it's so closely linked emotionally, laughter and sadness are so so closely linked, but it's how we respond to the things that happen, and you know, I think a lot of comedy is about yeah, deflecting it with laughter rather than going into yourself and being depressed about it because that's that's the Other option, isn't it? You know, you can get really sad about the things that happen, or you can just you can laugh them off.
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah, I'd yeah. I I don't know. I think it depends if if I put my own spin on that. But I think the important thing is definitely at least to open it and express it rather than push it down and suppress.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean you don't necessarily have to laugh at it, but I think it's just talking about it and getting it out there. And you know, for so many years, I n I never did open up about things, and as soon as you do, as soon as you have a chat with someone or you meet up with a mate, even if you're not talking about the thing that's making you sad, it just makes you feel better through you know, connecting with other human beings.
SPEAKER_02:So aft after the the assault in in Barcelona, was that the the the start of your journey of of getting uh or building a a different relationship with anxiety and your own emotions, Joe?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think because when I look at that night and I look at a lot of incidents in my life, a lot of it was driven by alcohol. You know, booze in you know, I've had some great nights on booze, and I think booze is good for a lot of things. I think it's a good social lubricant, it's a good way to sort of make you feel a little bit confident socially so you can start talking. So I think I've got I say I've got a lot to thank alcohol for, but alcohol certainly allows you to sort of go out and be a version of yourself and allows you to lose your inhibitions to sort of open up a little bit, but I think like with a lot of things in life, it no longer served me because I wasn't a good drunk and it took away so much rather than added to who I was, and I realized that all the dark situations in my life all the incidents, all the things that had caused me a lot of pain was to do with with drink. Um there was a moment when I went travelling with one of my friends to Mozambique and I got myself in a situation where without being too crass, I had unprotected sex with someone, and I was in an African country and off the back of that I convinced myself that I'd caught some some diseases and sexually transmitted diseases that were sort of life-threatening, HIV, AIDS, that sort of stuff, and I convinced myself that I was gonna die. So I think I started off with a performance anxiety, then it went to health anxiety, and off the back of that, after getting loads of tests and realizing that I was okay, off the back of that, I was pretty much convincing myself all the time that I was gonna die of something. Um, and I think health anxiety is a big thing that people deal with because you know you get a symptom or you get a bit of a cough and you sort of Google it, you you can convince yourself of all sorts of things. You know, you have a cough and then you do a bit of googling, and then before you know it, you've got throat cancer. And the anxiety is, but how do I know I haven't got it? The only way you're gonna know if you've got it or not is if you have a test for cancer, if you get a scan or a blood test, and the anxiety is always like, Yeah, but you're never gonna know fully until you actually get that test, and then you get the test and you realise you don't have it, and you're like, okay, I don't have it, and then something else comes along, and the anxiety creeps in again. It's like, yeah, but this time this could really be the throat cancer, this could be the brain cancer, that's why you've got a headache. And after I got stabbed, I convinced myself that someone had stabbed me with needles full of HIV. That's what anxiety can do, because I didn't know. So, well, they said they said they were knives, Joe, but how how'd you know they weren't needles full of HIV? Because I'd read that people were doing this, you know, in in nightclubs, they were going and stabbing people with with HIV infected blood. I'm like, oh that's probably what happened to me. And then I then I was on another trail of getting getting tested. You know, I'd be having protected sex and still convincing myself that I'd that I'd caught HIV. It was it was that crazy. Um and then I looked back and I thought alcohol, booze.
SPEAKER_01:That night when I went out to booze in Mozambique.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, that night when I got stabbed in Barcelona, absolutely off my head with booze. Oh yeah, that night when I lost thousands of pounds in a casino. Oh yeah, that that was booze as well. So that was really the thing that was was driving a lot of my pain. So before my son was born actually, um I had a pretty pretty bad night on online roulette where I lost uh a significant amount of money and I had to admit to my wife that I'd pretty much yeah, l lost most of the money that we had, which was pretty pretty devastating, very ashamed of it.
SPEAKER_01:Um and she was pregnant with m with with our first son.
SPEAKER_00:And I just said to her, look, I'm I'm fed up, but I can't do this anymore. And God bless her, she stayed with me, she supported me. She actually came to my first ever GA meeting. Pregnant with my son. Remember turning up to this room and a big circle full of blokes, and it's obviously for it's m mainly men in there. I don't think they've got anything against women, but you know, you don't you don't really see many women gamblers. Um and I said, is it all right if she comes in and she sort of sat down and you know, to stand up and say for the first time that hi, my name's Jerem, a compulsive gambler. Um and I made a vow to her then that I'll you know whatever do it again and I'm gonna give up booze. And yeah, for four years, didn't drink, didn't drink a drop, and that was probably the the best four years of my life because then I had to figure out who I was without alcohol, who I was socially without alcohol, who I was mentally without alcohol, and with that comes its own problems because you know when you go out and you're not drinking, people are like, Oh, why aren't you drinking? It's like oh come on, just have one. I'm like, Yeah, I sort of can't do it because it nearly ruined my life, and but you don't want to say that because you don't want to trauma dump on people, so you know you just sort of have to make up excuses. Oh, I'm not very well, or I'm on medication, I've had to do that so many times, I'm on antibiotics, I can't drink. And there's no doubt that over the years, and even now, people tend to not invite you to stuff, you tend not to go out as much because people see you as well, they're they're no fun if they're no drinking, and you know, I've say lost friends, but people slowly people s slowly don't don't value as a as someone to go out with socially because you don't drink. I mean what do we do when we meet up and we haven't seen people for a while? It's oh we should catch up for a beer. I'm like, yeah, okay, we'll we'll catch up for a chat and go out, and I could I can still have a beer and I I drink a lot of non-alcoholic beers and I love them. There's there's there's businesses that uh sell loads of lots of nice ones and it's becoming a lot popular. But even then, when you go out and it's like, you know, you're having a beer, and it's like, yeah, I'll just get a non-alcoholic beer, and then you can see the sadness in their eyes that you're not drinking, and it's like, oh, you know, so you have a bit of a chat, but then they tend not to get in touch with you again because you're not drinking alcohol, and yeah, that's that's another thing that both me and my wife have had had to deal with. But like I say to a lot of people when they say, Why don't you drink? I'm like, in a nutshell, it makes me sad and it makes me really tired, and that's it's not something I I want to be anymore, so that's it, really. I just say, no, it's just not a good, not good, not a good drug for me. Makes me sad, makes me makes me tired, makes me depressed, and and that's that's the truth.
SPEAKER_02:Given that anxiety uh is something that you you talked about, and you had an awareness from a young age, and it and it's potentially fuelled performances, um, and and has shown up in your life quite a few times, Joe. How do you although you've talked about taking alcohol away? How do you uh bring your awareness to it and and catch it and manage it now?
SPEAKER_00:When I look back, like I've got a lot to thank anxiety for. I think I think anxiety, it's it's not it's not a weakness. It can be if you don't know how to manage it, and that's why I'm so passionate about teaching young people how to use it. Because essentially, anxiety is the price that we pay for being able to think about the future. That's what anxiety is. That's all it is. It's it's it's a it's a thought-based mechanism where we can think about what's happening tomorrow, the next day. You know, animals can't do that. We can, and you can use that as a superpower to predict the future, to plan, to prepare, to invent, to create, but also you can use that in a devastating way to predict the future, you know, in a in a way that you think is going to be, you know, bad, what if, worst case scenarios, all those things that we we typically do. So, you know, when I catch myself mind reading or predicting the future, and I do it in a negative way, I just say to myself, Joe, well, all you're trying to do is be certain about something you can never be certain about. And I think over the years I've just learned to let let go of that that control because that's all we're trying to do with anxiety, is we're trying to control the future. It's an intolerance of uncertainty, that's what anxiety is. And over the years I've become just a lot better at going, I don't know. I don't know how this podcast with Aaron's gonna go. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, but I know when I get there, I'll be alright because I've survived up to this point. It's when we we try and control the things that we can't control, that's when it gets out of hand. So, yeah, I've I've used it a lot to to sort of supercharge myself because it can be a great fuel to drive you forward. But I think there's there's a fine line between anxiety driving you forward and it being a superpower, and then it tipping over into an anxiety disorder, you know, because adrenaline's great. Adrenaline's great at pushing you forward, preparing you, helping you feel focused. But then if that gets out of control and you don't understand what it is or why it's happening, then you know that's a panic attack. That's that's that's you being overtaken by it, that's you being managed by anxiety rather than you managing it.
SPEAKER_02:So so you you've taken this these experiences that you've had with anxiety and put that into a workshop. Um, what are some of the the key pillars or lessons or learnings that you teach um people about, mate, that they might be able to have a grasp of if they walk away, when they walk away from this?
SPEAKER_00:So typically it's a five-hour workshop, so you're taking them on five hours of anxiety, but it's done in a very fun, uh, gamified way. So it's not just me going, hey guys, here's a PowerPoint, this is anxiety. It's like, right, I'm a 43-year-old man and I've been anxious, and I've been in a lot of situations that have held me back because of anxiety, and I still feel a little bit anxious now, but just because you feel anxious, it doesn't mean that you can't still do the things you want to do. So the fundamentals behind the workshop is I help people understand what anxiety actually is and how to manage it. So the first part is, you know, what is anxiety? It's an intolerance of uncertainty. Um, anxiety really is a misuse of your imagination, you know, because when we think in the future, we create all sorts of ideas in our head about what it's going to be like. And in a nutshell, anxiety isn't actually real. The the thinking part behind anxiety isn't real because you're creating things inside your head that haven't happened yet. So it's it's normalizing it and making students realize that the feelings they get when they are anxious, again, are completely normal. You know, it's like if you don't feel anxious, then I hate to break this to you, kids, but you're not a human being. And they're like, oh, okay, yeah. So it's so it's okay to be anxious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's so let's now look at how we can manage it. And then we look at different strategies about actually looking after your body first, you know, getting into your body, making sure that your your alarm, the the nervous system is is regulated because that your your body needs to be taken care of first. There's a great book by uh a great psychologist called Dr. Russell Kennedy. He's got a good book called Um Anxiety RX. He says you can't think your way out of a feeling problem. You know, the the the the problem with anxiety is the alarm in your body, and once you've got that settled, then we can start looking at the thoughts. But some people aren't aware of the thoughts, that they they think that their thoughts are real, they think their thoughts are them. And for many, many years, anything that came in my head, I I just took us true. So it's an awareness around thinking, it's an awareness that you are not your thoughts, you're the person that listens to your thoughts. And once you allow all these things to be there, thoughts, feelings without trying to push them away. Because essentially, when we get anxious, and what keeps anxiety going is us trying to push the thoughts away, push the feelings away so we don't feel anxious. But what that actually does, it makes us feel more anxious. You know, it's that sort of short, short-term avoidance for long-term maintenance. You know, when we avoid the thoughts, when we avoid the feelings, we push them away, and we we might think that works for a little bit, but they just end up coming back. And I think one thing that I try and teach in the workshops is students to actually become aware of their thoughts and just watch their thoughts, like clouds coming by or buses pulling into a bus stop. You'd have to get on the bus, it's just a thought, it's all it is, let it go. That feeling that you get right now, don't push it away, just be there with it. Anxiety is a bit like a a puppy that just needs looking after. So when it comes in, you just go, look, I'm I'm there for you. You know, I'm I'm I'm okay, you're safe. Anxiety comes from a feeling of not feeling safe. So once you create those little islands of safety, whether it's through breath work, whether it's through meditation, through mindfulness, and they get a sense of how to be aware of their thoughts, and you give them a few strategies to manage it, you send that, you then send them off into the world and go, right, here are some tools, go and try it out. But let's not try and push anxiety away because it's always going to be there, it's part of being being human. And like I said, I've had some great success stories. You know, Daisy, who couldn't even come into the workshop because she was so terrified, is now head girl standing up in front of 1400 people. We created this thing called an exposure ladder, um, which is a sort of softer version of the rejection therapy, episode one that you listen to. You know, if you're if you're if you're anxious about being in social situations, then avoiding it is going to be the worst thing. You know, that's gonna make you feel more anxious. At some point, we're gonna have to interact socially. So rather than throw yourself into it and just be like, ah, be social. What about just small incremental steps? You know, next time you're in a cafe, just give someone a bit of eye contact. Next time you're on the bus, maybe give the driver a bit of eye contact and then say hello. You know, for some people that's huge, that's massive. And the next time maybe there's a follow-up question, hi, how are you doing? And you know, chat about the weather. That's what British people do, you know. Let's just keep it keep it nice and simple. And it's just little techniques like that, and I think just essentially normalizing it for young people and getting them to realise that even us as adults, we still feel anxious is is something they really latch on to. Because I think I think in schools as well, you know, they see they see teachers up there, these authority figures, they see their parents, people that they look up to. If that if we're not having conversations with them about actually, I I feel I feel anxious, I feel nervous, I feel depressed all the time, then how how do we ever know that it's normal? And that's what I'm trying to do with my own kids, you know. I try and apologise to my kids that I guess, well, my you know, you look back at your own your own parents, it's like you know, that they were always very strong authority figures that seemingly never had any problems. But now you look back and you're like, well, of course you have problems, but it was never really talked about. So I think as a parent, I'm just trying to be like, yeah, my son's always like, You're right, Daddy, you're right. You look a bit sad, you look a bit, look a bit annoyed. I'm like, yeah, I am actually. I'm a bit annoyed. I've been having a bit of a sad day today, and I'm not feeling great about myself, and I'm feeling a bit tired and been feeling full of self-doubt. And you know, sometimes I feel like I haven't achieved what I want to do today, but that's that's alright. And that those are the those are the conversations I'm trying to have.
SPEAKER_02:Love it, mate. Yeah, which would be really valuable because I guess for some people that's the first time they've they've had a conversation or it's been openly talked about, so so normalizing and understanding it is is is what strikes me as a really important first step. And I I love the um yeah, the exposure ladder and asking for things that on on that episode that I listened to, the the first one, which is brilliant, on uh anxiety uncovered about um asking for things that you can't get just to feel the rejection, the rejection therapy and the yeah, the six the six-inch bait beaner. Um and just before we go on to the podcast, Joe's then is there is there a tool that you find works best for for young kids or for yourself then you I mean, because I guess this is a process and a journey, but if if we assume that maybe this is um that everybody's on their own journey, yeah, the the most the most common tool or breathing technique that people can can jump into quite quickly, or that works for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean I think there's a difference between breathing techniques in order to cope with certain situations and mindfulness. I mean, I use two-to-one breathing, in for two, out for four, put my hand on my heart just to regulate my nervous system, just to tap into that parasympathetic nervous system, and I do that before I go on stage. So it's good for for performance anxiety. I do the physiological side, which is in for two and then the long extended XL. I do that when I'm on stage, maybe those uh a few seconds before I go on stage, it's just those those are the sort of those are the sort of hacks, real good proper, solid uh breathing techniques that I use. But I think before that you need to do a bit of deeper work and that's and uh it's got uh it's not a great name for it, you know, mindfulness meditation. I think it puts a lot of people off. Um I actually interviewed uh someone who was doing some oh it's gone off. Oh no, there it is. Um I actually interviewed on the podcast episode six um a a study called Attend, and it's called MAC, it's mindfulness for adolescents and carers. And what they do is they do an eight-week program where they get adults and their young people, so it could be uh parents and carers with their young people to do an eight-week mindfulness course, and they they learn how to do mindfulness together, and it's a really effective treatment, and it's had you know a lot of a lot of positives that come out of it. But essentially, with that, and what I do in the workshop is get students to sit in silence in their own head for 10 minutes and just watch what happens, be aware of what's going on inside your head, and that's where it starts, I think. I think it's it's awareness. There's a great quote by Cheryl Sandberg, she was the ex COO of Facebook. She said, you know, you cannot change what you're not aware of, but as soon as you're aware of it, you cannot help but change. And I love that because so many of us aren't actually aware that we have a little voice inside our heads. A lot of us aren't aware that we have thoughts that are completely involuntary. Research shows we have 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day. 80% of those thoughts are negative because of the negativity bias. Why do we have 80% negative thoughts? Is because we have a part of our brain that is constantly looking out for threats, constantly trying to keep us alive, keep us safe. So once you're aware of that, you're like, okay, so I've got this brain that is always looking out for threats. My thoughts aren't real. If I'm aware of them and I don't try and push them away, that's where I think the journey with anxiety begins. And that you don't have to trust every thought, you don't have to latch onto it, you don't have to attach emotion to it, you can just watch them come and go. And most of the thoughts are going to be negative anyway, so let's just focus on the ones that are going to be useful for us, that are going to be helpful to us, you know. And I think to answer your question, once you're aware of that through mindfulness and just through sitting with yourself, that's when I think the healing, the awareness around anxiety begins. Um and I remember one workshop, the bit of feedback from a young person was that's the first time in my whole life that I can remember where I just stopped and I wasn't doing anything. Because I think we're all guilty of this, aren't we? We're always doing stuff, you know. I know that mindfulness meditation helps me. How often do I do it? Not enough.
SPEAKER_03:I do it when I really need to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Um but because this voice was so overbearing in my early 20s, and I thought I was going crazy, and even when I was having therapy, and even though I was aware of this voice, I still couldn't stop it. So I remember actually signing up to the London School of Meditation, and I was the youngest member there. I think I was, you know, early 20s, and it was a house in Holland Park in London where you could go along for free and just sit in a room with people a lot older than you, call them the elders, and I used to go and just sit in this room with people that were in their 70s and 80s in this lovely house in Holland Park and just meditate with him and just sit in a room for like an hour and just not do anything. And it was it was then when I could seriously get a grip of what my brain was doing and the thoughts that were coming in and just going, Jesus Christ, where the hell did that one come from? Oh, there's another one, and whoa. But just watching it without defense and allowing it to be there without defense and just waiting for the next one, and talk about, you know, mental reps. I think that that's what you gotta do. You gotta you gotta you gotta really see what your mind is doing and see that often it doesn't it doesn't serve you. And I think when young people, I think there's a lot of adults that still don't don't get this, and I don't get it right all the time, but I think once you can be aware of what what your thoughts do and how we respond to them, I think that's that's yeah, that's where the the healing, that's where the the work starts. Love it, right?
SPEAKER_02:Love it. Joe, is there anything um as we start to wrap this conversation up that we've not talked about that you'd like to or or or mention before we start to finish?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'd first want to say I've had a really good conversation. I didn't don't really feel like it's been a conversation, I just feel I've just been I've talked at you. Yeah, but that's the idea, mate.
SPEAKER_02:You can watch my podcast, I'll ask you questions.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I hope I I hope it's been an easy one for you, and I've I've genuinely enjoyed it. And you know, I think, and again, this is where where my brain works. You ask me a question, and I hope I haven't gone off on a million different tangents. I hope it's been you know, I hope it's been an interesting one. I hope I hope I hope it's been useful. I hope whoever's listening to this has gone, that was that was a really useful conversation because honestly, I've just tried to be honest in the moment with what was on what was going on in my head at the time when you asked me the question. So I I know truthfully that I've given my most honest, truthful self to this conversation. I'm not saying it's it's it's the best answers that I could have given, but it's the ones that I gave when when you asked. And yeah, I would say that look, anyone who's out there who's struggling with anxiety, who still doesn't really know what it is or how to manage it, then yeah, please listen to the podcast. And it's on Apple iTunes. No, that's something different. It's on Apple, iTunes Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, it's on Apple Podcast. Look at that. I'm so good at promoting myself. It's on it's on Apple Podcasts, it's on Spotify. And yeah, if you've got a young person out there, if you've got a teenager who's struggling for anxiety, it's good for them. If you're an adult who wants to know more about anxiety, it's there for everyone. And if it isn't for you, but you know of someone who is struggling with it, then please, please direct them to it. And if you're an educator out there, if you're a teacher, if you're an SLT, if you're a decision maker, then yeah, anxietyuncovered.com, where you can look at the workshops and you can find out more about you know how I could potentially come into your your school, your college, your university, your business and and talk to your your students or your workforce about yeah, what anxiety is and how to manage it.
SPEAKER_02:So I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And the fact that you wander off topic helps me because it gives me more range to ask than you think uh to ask you about. So yeah, yeah, you've you've done me very well, mate. Thank you. Um I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I can recommend your podcast highly. Brilliant. It really took me back. I love the dynamics of it um and the practicalities of some of the tools. Um still looking for my six-inch baked beaner.
SPEAKER_00:Keep asking, mate. Keep asking. If you keep going in there and going, can have a six-inch baked beaner, eventually they'll be like, what is it?
SPEAKER_02:We just need to do it because everyone keeps asking. It doesn't translate well and there's no subways in town, but yeah, I will keep asking. Um but Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure, mate. Thanks for your time, thanks for your openness. Um, and um yeah, I look forward to to watching the and listening to the next season of the podcast, mate. Keep on doing what you're doing, brother.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Thanks for having me, Aaron, and good luck as well with you. I think what you're doing is amazing.