Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
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Forging Resilience
S3 Ep 87: Carl, Ron & Jon: There's a Devil At Every Level
The moment you level up, the doubts level up too. We tackle that head-on with a lively, honest conversation about the “devil at every level” the way new goals awaken old fears and the tools that actually move you forward when motivation goes missing.
With three friends who coach for a living and laugh for sanity, we explore what it looks like to leave a secure career, build a business from scratch, and still hit publish when perfectionism flares.
We dig into the upper limit problem and the internal thermostat that snaps you back to familiar comfort. You’ll hear how perfectionism shows up as a sign, not a standard; why fifty takes of a thirty‑second reel is a trap; and how commitment beats moods when it counts. We share small, concrete systems decide ahead of time, act small, measure the gains that make progress inevitable.
Belief is a lagging indicator, not the starter pistol. Break goals into tractable actions, detach your identity from outcomes, and let experience recalibrate your limits. If you’re sitting on a goal because the fear feels bigger than your confidence, this is your nudge to move, imperfectly and on purpose.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs the push, and leave a review to help more people find these conversations. What ceiling are you choosing to challenge this week?
Welcome to Fortune Resilience, real conversations for high performance facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. Join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today something a little bit different on the podcast. I get to sit down with two real dear friends of mine and have a discussion and conversation around an expression that has been quite a useful analogy for all of us at different stages and then turned into a bit of a joke. The expression we're going to talk about is how there's a devil at every level. Another way of saying it is the internal thermostat, the self-limiting caps that we put on ourselves when we're trying to achieve new things or challenging things. This is 50 minutes of me chatting with my mates about real life examples of how this shows up in our own lives currently or in the past. You'll hear a bit more swearing, joking, fighting, giggling, as I do when I'm with my mates. Enjoy. Yeah, because part of me wants to welcome you to my podcast. So welcome to Forging Resilience.
SPEAKER_02:Welcome to Yeah, welcome to the job. And welcome to Weight Lost Warriors.
SPEAKER_01:Threesome. A three-way, yeah, three way. It's been on the cards a while. We talked about this last year, if I remember rightly, trying to do yeah, the sexy carrot club.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we kept on that on a podcast, didn't we? But we've never actually done one, have we?
SPEAKER_02:No, I think we actually decided it was a sexy carrot at the time. Which is ironic.
SPEAKER_00:Or probably thought it wasn't a good idea, which is probably what we're gonna find out now. When we all get cancelled.
SPEAKER_01:I doubt it, mate. You have to have more than 12 listeners between the three of us to get cancelled.
SPEAKER_00:It's all the same ones.
SPEAKER_01:John, over to you, mate. Um, you are going through a bit of a a change at the moment. We were having a conversation the other week, and there's a very good friend of ours who's got this expression. There's a devil at every level, and it really resonated with you. So we thought we'd talk about that a bit.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's come up a lot, that saying, isn't it? And we know really the purpose of this is to talk about the devil at every level, but also find out who actually said it first, I think, is more of the more the issue.
SPEAKER_02:I think with this, I was actually I was racking my brains about this because I I genuinely don't know if I remember correctly exactly how it came about. I think I do, but I'm not 100% sure. Can I just interrupt?
SPEAKER_00:We have not even introduced ourselves.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe that's a good place to start.
SPEAKER_00:Why not? Do you want to go first, Carl?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'll go first then. And I'm not John, I'm Carl, for anyone who's not listened or doesn't know us. So hi everyone. Uh I'm Carl. I am the host of the Weight Loss Warriors Podcast. I'm also a coach, and I've had the pleasure of knowing these two gentlemen for a number of years now. Both have helped me very much in a coaching capacity as friends. Also bloody good blokes and a bloody good laugh with them. So uh we decided we'd have this three-way tonight. I think bring different qualities to the podcasts that we have and uh see where it goes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, love it. I'm Johnny Bevan and I am the well, yeah, I got a podcast called The Job. We've all got podcasts, just a thing now, isn't it? And yeah, I've well I've known Ron for well, we we got this wrong to side. It's like thirty year thirty years, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:We ran out of toes and fingers, mate, basically.
SPEAKER_00:And met Carl through Ron. And um yeah, I think we're all good mates now, aren't we? So he he's like the glue holding it all together. And I gotta say, not only is it my first three-way, but it's my first three-way with a ginger. So I'm you know, it's it's a night of firsts for me.
SPEAKER_02:I feel honest.
SPEAKER_00:I am excited.
SPEAKER_02:I think this is probably the first three way a ginger's been in, to be honest. Unless it was with two other gingers, that's probably incestuous.
SPEAKER_00:So we might go there. Um and the last one but not least, here we go.
SPEAKER_01:How do you introduce yourself after that? Yeah, the highs and the lows. Yeah, so my my name's Ron or Aaron. Yeah, I've had the pleasure for knowing both of these men for different periods of time, but mean very much to me in different ways. I also happen to be a coach, another white boy with a podcast called Forging Resilience. And um, yeah, we've been speaking on and off about some sort of collaborative conversation. So this is it. Um and yeah, we whilst we will also be taking the piss out of each other and doing a bit of fact-finding and where this expression comes from, there's also a serious, a serious side to it as well. Yeah, interesting, interesting side, especially as I alluded to, but got hijacked about John going through so much obvious external change at the moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, because I've um well it's actually just over a month now since left the police, which um and to do the coaching full-time. And yeah, and we're I'll talk more about that in a minute, but first of all, I want to just for anyone listening, I want to cast some light on why this is the devil at every level, is because and tell me if I'm wrong about this, Carl, but this is what are how I remember the origin of it. So I was I can I've gone through so many tough times over the last few years doing this. I think I was sort of struggling with something. I was on the phone to Ron, and he said to me, He said, Well, he didn't say who, but he said, A good friend of mine said there's a devil at every level, and I was like, Yeah, as in like we're trying to get rid of this thing, but every time we go to this new level, there's this there's this hardship, this little nattering voice. And it and at the time, I think I was coaching you, wasn't I Carl? That's right. And so then Carl was talking about something and was like us all going through like hard times and that. And and I said, Well, I want to share with something, share with you something that really helped me that Ron told me. And I said, This there's a devil at every level, to which he looked up and went, Jakey Baston. I told him that. But then we're not even sure if you are the true origin of it because we think someone else might have said it on your podcast. But maybe you can cast some light on that, Carl.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I've never once claimed to have created that saying not once, but five or six times hundreds of times. I've repeatedly told you. No, but the thing that made me laugh the most about this, and you're quite right, was that the the the way that I had mentioned it to Ron in a com and I'd heard it, shared it with Ron who shared it with you, and it went full circle, came back to me, or triangle back to me as advice that I had you know originally shared with somebody else. So that's what made me laugh so much about it. But I think you're right. I think it is regardless of who created it, which we can go into a bit later, because I did do a little bit of research. Any of any of us, to be honest with you. But I do think it's a really useful and visual phrase that you can use and people can relate to in terms of like you said, when you hit those boundaries, when it doesn't matter how much you progress, there's always going to be a challenge in front of you. And so how you overcome that, which I think really you know makes a great topic for today's conversation. But um, yeah, we don't know who originated.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I just to add my two cents in, Carl, um, I listened to one of your very early podcasts, and there was a there was a finance coach on there, a female who was talking to.
SPEAKER_00:Do we need to get her on there as well or not?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe. And that's where I heard it from, and I'm pretty sure I referenced it. However, I never let the truth get in the way of a story. And um, so yeah, it it's it's it's it's good to see that it's had the desired effect and quite a bit of frustration, banter, and uh and insight as well. So what more could you ask for?
SPEAKER_00:And I think if we listen to a c a few of your podcasts, Ron, you you've got it in a few times, haven't you?
SPEAKER_01:I've snuck it in. I yeah, and and the expression, so uh, I was touched up with that. I I yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I've had to stop saying it in my I can't say it without laughing now. So I'm trying to try to help someone or coach someone, be all serious, and then I say that, and I can't I want to just get on my high horse and say, by the way, if Ron ever tells you he told you that, yeah, that that's not him, and it kind of ruins the patter of my uh my coaching session.
SPEAKER_00:For me though, it is such I know we joke about it, but it is so relevant, isn't it? Because I think sometimes we think we overcome something, and then you're out in the woods, and then it's all good. And what I found is that saying there's a devil at every level is almost like you sort of commit to something, you go in, it's hard, I call it sometimes the messy middle or the bloody river of misery, and then you come out, and it feels so good when you come out the other side, but it's being realizing that when you level up again, that same process is is it's gonna come back. And it's what I've done recently is I've been I've written like a contract for myself to actually so I buy into that because what I found was I was going through and you sort of pop out the other end and go, well, that was good, but then you almost try and find ways around next time to try and avoid that discomfort. Whereas I find when you realise that is the process, I think it I think it makes I think it makes it so much easier. You can like almost prepare yourself for it.
SPEAKER_01:It's quite interesting you say that because it is you've obviously got quite a an awareness of these patterns, these cyclical things that that that happen. What I find the way that that that sort of thing shows up for me is it gets subtler and subtler and and that what appears obvious or used to appear obvious and blatant discomfort and avoidance gets the the distraction or gets yeah, subtler. It's not as obvious, it's not there with blaring lights, it's not it's not this one big thing that I feel like I'm avoiding or have avoided. So it's it's a really interesting the way the the way that you can catch that for yourself, John.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and I I think it's about changing the relationship with that. I mean, and I don't know if it make I don't know if it makes it any easier, but what I think is we have this natural struggle, and my I love this analogy of like a thermostat, like we've got this intern, I heard this, I'm not gonna claim this either. This is this isn't mine. This probably comes from Ron anyway. Yeah, this comes from Carl's conversation to me, which Carl got from someone else on his podcast and claimed for himself anyway. No, this is Kay Hendricks, and he says, like, we got this internal thermostat, and we got this internal thermostat set in. And he says that every problem is to do with what he calls the upper limit problem, and it's like what you believe about yourself, how much love you can have in your life, how much success you can have, basically what you believe about yourself and what you can receive. When you go above that, your brain creates negativity to bring you back. And if you don't address that upper limit problem, then you will keep coming back. But it's about being aware of it and staying out there, so realizing that when your brain's kicking off, all it is is you've exceeded what you believe you're capable and worthy of, and your brain's just trying to default you back to that belief. And I know recently when I left the police, it wasn't so much the identity of leaving the police, it was the thing of providing for my family without having a wage. And because I was sort of initially thinking, oh, I'm gonna struggle with this, all that shame, what you I was making it mean about me, lot and lots of beliefs came up which I thought I had addressed. And this is what I realised is this for me, for me is that devil at the level is those beliefs I don't think go away. I think they just quieten, feel safe, and then when you go up again, oof, they all come they all come back.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, absolutely. I I think when when you look at them, if if we set that like the level as as the boundary of what you've you want to achieve, and on the other side of that boundary sits whatever goal, objective, wish that you have. But then the challenge is as you get closer to it, if you don't have the evidence that you've uh already done it in the past or it's something new for you, then that's where I think the self-doubt comes in and that kind of like, I can't do this, or I'm going to fail, or it's not possible because you don't have that previous experience or evidence that it can be done. And I think that comes up with so many things. It might even come up with the same thing that you've already done. But in my case, I'm definitely seeing it more and more with new things, new goals. And setting uh those new boundaries. You mentioned the process, and I think that's uh absolutely key. It's like not to shy away from setting those goals or being a no it's about being brave enough to actually face the fears that you have. And sometimes it can be really minute things, things that seem almost you know uh obsolete, and then sometimes it's really big things which you kind of expect other people to to share that same feeling with, like, you know, I want to uh uh become a an astronaut or something. I don't know where that came from. But it's kind of like sorry, is that because you want to be shot in the space? Yeah, that's that's exactly it. But you know, that seems like something that I couldn't achieve. But uh if it's something like I I I want to take my coaching business to the next level, or you, Johnny, you want you want to leave the place and focus on coaching full time. The fear that that creates, the the doubt, the shame that you mentioned just now, I don't think it feels any different to us. It's it's still that boundary. And until we're actually ready to face it, to cross it, uh and sometimes we have to do it even when we don't feel ready, is when the good stuff starts to happen. And that's something you taught me as well, actually, John. Yeah from coaching.
SPEAKER_00:And I and I think it's been for me it's really because it's easy when you're sort of coaching someone else, isn't it? Because you know you've got the emotion, but it really showed me that we set, like you said, like this limit, we set this glass ceiling, like we've set what we think we're capable of and what we can receive. And what I've realized is we set the reason we should be setting the goal is to bring those beliefs up, and they come up in the in the form of shame, all this stuff, and but often what pe and self-doubt, because I thought what I found was before, like we go, oh, we don't want to set this goal because we don't believe we can do it. But what I've suddenly realized, ah, this is exactly why we should set the goal, because you can sit there forever and a day journaling, and not that that's bad, and writing, trying to get trying to overcome a limiting belief. But I've personally found the easiest way is to go and do the thing you don't believe you can do. That belief is gonna come up, and then you work through it, and you along that way, you build trust in yourself, you disprove that belief, and then you you level up, and then what you do is you have this great process of going, oh, actually, the reason for setting goals now is not about achieving the goal, it's just to evolve as a person and to identify my limiting beliefs, what I've set, and to overcome them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, this process, yeah. There's there's an interesting pattern here that I see with myself, then, and I'm curious to see if that shows up for you lads as well. If we think of these things, so if I look at I think one of the clearest examples for me is when I was working in the gym and um trying to yeah, I was trying to sell personal training and the fear and trepidation that that used to cause around rejection, not being able to speak the the language fluently enough. It was pointed out to me probably by you, John, about how my attention was on myself, not on the other people. Um, but it's yeah, so what it real really boiled down to for me was um belonging, um self-worth and and a fear of rejection. There's just a couple of things that pop into my mind as I put myself back into that into that gym. So what I find is that these lessons have to be relearned in different ways because it's such an integral part or has been such an integral part of me or my belief system as a kid, it's not something I just get to chop off and and imagine that never happened. For me, it feels like it's coming along for the ride, and whilst that's healed and I can catch it, it's uh yeah, it still shows up. It still shows up. Um yeah, so I'm curious if that's true for either of you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think for me, I know like perfectionism, I see it now as like a sign, not a standard. So I used to think I've got rid of perfectionism, but what I notice is it comes in when I'm scared. So I catch myself first of all doing that. Like you say, I don't think it's anything that we eliminate. But and I think like we we all have that fear of rejection, haven't we? We we all have it, and I think suddenly you go about doing something, you set a goal where, like, for instance, like if you're public speaking or doing something like that, and you might fear the judgment and the rejection, but your brain gets used to it and it sort of goes, Yeah, we're safe now, because you've done it a lot and you've shown your brain you're safe. But when you then go to something else, those same fears may come up because it's hardwired in us as well, isn't it? It's hardwired to sort of fear judgment and things like that. And I think it's a great way. I always think your brain takes the easy route, it finds the thing that you fear, and if it goes, Oh, we're going out beyond what we're capable of, it goes, I'll just chuck this one in. And for me, the belief that comes up for me is which I haven't had for ages, is I'm fucking useless. And it was like really strong. I've been down by my puttbar having that belief, crying and you know, really it's really visceral. And and that belief used to come up all the time, years ago, and I thought it was put to bed, but I realized that's a great way for my brain to enter that thought. And then I as soon as it came in, I was considering going back to where I'd come from. And so yeah, I I think the same things do come up and come round, and that's the good news, because you know how to deal with them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and but the more tools that you can have, or the more experience I think you get of dealing with them and facing them, I won't say easier it becomes, but perhaps the quicker it becomes to close the loop and to to find a way forward. And you talk about perfectionism, and it's curious because even today I I could show you my phone of when I was recording. This is going live. Okay, well, I probably won't, especially not my gallery. Um all those photos you sent me, Johnny. But you know, there's there's I've got reels that I've recorded on Instagram where I won't I'm not even exaggerating, more than 50 attempts to record a 30-second reel. And I start and I stop, I start and I stop until I I get what I think is the perfect take and I publish that and it absolutely tanks. No, you know, it's barely any interaction, barely any engagement. And again, what you were saying, Ron, about speaking to people in a different language or or selling coaching uh selling personal training, you were making it more about you instead of them. I think my problem with this is that I make it more about the other person than whether or not I'm happy with what I'm doing. You know, how are other people gonna react to that? Are people gonna like what I'm doing? And this I think goes back to that perfectionism, that fear of failure, fear of judgment. So it's it's still coming up against the same fears, but from a slightly different angle, in that you know, I'm gonna be rejected by people, they're not gonna like what I'm doing, it has to be perfect, which is absolutely ridiculous. And you know, we've we've all three of us spoken about this many times, but perfect perfection, it doesn't exist because one person's ideal is completely different to another. So I think the only person who you can really truly please is yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Do you want to reword that? No, I said it in exactly the way I meant it. The only person you can please is yourself, is that right? Do you want to talk more about that, Carl, or do you want to go about the perfectionist?
SPEAKER_02:From which angle, John? No, any angle.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's many angles you can do it from if you're pleasing your. Yourself is it? I think there's only possibly one, maybe two. I don't know. I'd have to let you know. Um but what what I found is when you find because two things I want to say is one is if anyone's listening to this. Just two. Yeah, it is what I found, especially with this, with the move from the police, and this I would have hated before, and now I love it, is I know I can't do it on my own. I I know like I've got Nikki, I've been on the phone with Ron, got Carl, I've got real close people, and knowing that I can't do it on my own makes it easier, actually, because I know well I could I just got all this help. And the other thing I find is when you identify that, like so for you, Carl, that's quite a common thing, isn't it? Like that is like what you default back into. I sometimes think we can spend ages trying to change that default, trying to like coach through it and do that. Whereas if you know when you go above your limit, you start perfecting reels. If you know that, I love this concept of putting a safeguard around it. Like as soon as you notice it, what do you do? So that and and and and and I I love it because then suddenly you haven't got to change this thing. You you haven't got to spend loads of time trying to change it. You just go, oh, I'm perfecting, and my safeguard is maybe I just hit send and go and fill the fair. And I personally I found that really useful because then you can just accept yourself as you are and realize you're not something to fix. This is just a sign, this is your default pattern of where you go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think it's sound advice. I think he's absolutely right as well.
SPEAKER_01:Um I've been getting coached a bit on this at the moment in terms of my business, and what my my coach, Chair's First Cal, pointed out to me was that yeah, like you said, it's not it's not about me, it's about the system that I've created, about building business. So it's not that efficient. And there's lots of things that take me distract me or take me away from from what that is, and often it's feelings, and like I alluded to earlier, I don't always catch it. So my system isn't that effective because usually I only apply the system when I feel like it. And it is giving a great distinction or saying it's like that commitment decides and then your feelings guide.
SPEAKER_00:So so do you mean as in when you say a system, do you mean a system for recognising it and catching it, or your work or actually a system within your work?
SPEAKER_01:System within the work, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because then feelings can come up and go, and it does it's not dependent on being in a certain state to take a certain step or an action, which is is similar to what you're saying. You you get to catch it and carry on anyway, because this is the system that you've set. You've you've set a target or the commitment for that day, it's scheduled.
SPEAKER_02:But do you think, Ron, that you you utilize that as a tool based on uh the scale of of how important the thing is to you, or how much fear that's created by the thing that you uh are trying to accomplish? So, like you've got a system in place and you know that's like your your ring fence, your safeguard, you know how to utilize it. But then if something feels a little bit too much or it brings up a lot of fear, you choose not to use it, even though the tool itself would probably work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I default to feelings that that manage how I take the action rather than the system. Because the system would say, So let's take public speaking as an example, I'm not quite ready to do it yet, I'm not feeling confident enough. Whereas the system would say, Write your speech, there's the intro, there's the main body, there's the outro, practice ten times, get some feedback, and on this date I'll deliver, you know? So it's regardless of what what you feel like. Yeah. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:And this is why commitment's so important, because like when you were saying, Carl, like if you commit, I think I heard you right, like when you said but when that fear's like strong, then do not commit. The f that the fear doesn't even come into it because you've committed before. So, in other words, like so I find that these five C's of commitment, courage, curiosity, and then can't remember the other one. Three more consistency, so there's another one, the other one will come to me. Let's go with four for now. The fifth one, I'm gonna leave you hanging. But next episode.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Google it.
SPEAKER_00:Because I find that when you've got that commitment, you literally decide ahead of time, I'm gonna do it. And then, like Ron said, I love it because you just go when you come to do it, you actually anticipate and accept. You don't want to do it, you're gonna feel the fear. And I think when you don't rely on how it feels, you're not relying on motivation, you're just deciding ahead of time, and then you're deciding what's in line with your priorities and stick to it. And that takes a willingness to fill that discomfort. And but the thing is, we don't all get it perfect, do we? Like we commit to stuff and then we go, oh, and we emotion gets the better of us. But so it's not about perfection, but I think the more you can do it, I think you build a really good relationship with yourself because you show up for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so. I'm what what I'm hearing in there in that is that you you are growing in your aware awareness so that you can respond rather than react.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, it's exactly like you're what you're doing is like you you're not trying to do it perfectly, you're going, oh, I've got to be 100% committed all the time because you may not be.
SPEAKER_01:But if you if you practice it and go, what I think is if you commit to something, like this three-step process, if you go right when you make it real, is there anything that sticks out in your mind at the moment, John?
SPEAKER_00:Um right, so I mean, so I do I do it every day because ironically, I think we all like different things, don't we? Like, so I think for you, Carl, you quite like the editing doing to doing all that, don't you?
SPEAKER_02:Love it. I I I do enjoy yeah, I I enjoy the technology technological side of things. It's true.
SPEAKER_00:I use hating it to my advantage because I know I don't like it. So when I do it, I don't edit my reels because I just go hit a live go. Because it's easier for me to do that than sit there with the pain of doing it. But I think I'm trying to give an example. I use it every day now. If I well, I I'm trying to think of something. I've I think like record a simple thing, like recording my program. I was putting that off because I go, oh, I've started it, and then suddenly I had a module to do on decision making. Ironically, I was putting it off. The irony was lot lost. So I suddenly went, right, this is done. So I commit to it. This is what's going to be done, and commit small. I'm gonna have the intro and video one done by this time. And then I as it comes to it, my I wanted to do everything by record it, my brain's going, oh we do this, reach this, give Ron a call, go on all this. And then you go, no, we've we're doing it. Start, feel the discomfort, but then a big thing which I think people miss is then measure the gains. So what I did is I started the video and suddenly I couldn't stop and I recorded the whole module. And in like 10-minute videos, in in an hour, it's all recorded, job done, ready to go. And then you see the benefits of commitment, and you realize you get rewards from leaning into the fair. And I think then what you do is you can rest, because what most people do is then go, Oh, I can commit to loads. No, you break, and you know that when it's time to work again, you just gotta commit, feel the discomfort, measure the wins, and then then it happens. And that for me has worked a treat with everything, really.
SPEAKER_02:That's great. What about leveraging accountability? Because there's still and if we we think about the devil at every level, no matter how much this tool works for you, do we have to credit you for that every time it's said at all?
SPEAKER_00:I was in the middle. I was the cheese in the sandwich. Don't bring it up. Cheese in the sandwich. Right. I was the true victim. I was the true victim because I was using it in a professional capacity and it got thrown back in my face. Because one of the references I was coaching was the one that had given it to him.
SPEAKER_02:I need to find out who the who the podcast episode was with and and ask them where they got it from. But um but leveraging accountability, because I I love this idea of having commitment there. And and when you were talking about that, one thing that come to my mind was there are situations in which you are almost forced into a commitment. And you talked about public speaking, and I thought instantly of my brother's wedding, I was best man, had to give a speech. Do you know you were best man at runs? Perhaps you didn't particularly want to speak in front of everybody. I think you've probably been waiting years for it, but they want to be there.
SPEAKER_00:That's why I didn't pick you up from the air. Well, not the only man there. I think that was the where you realize I was the best man.
SPEAKER_02:But so this was a situation where I mean I quite like speaking in public, so for me it wasn't an issue, but the commitment was there, there was an expectation. I agreed to be a best man, therefore I was gonna have to do a speech. So it wasn't optional for me. And I'd made that commitment, but I would do it. So leading up to it, no matter how nervous I got, no matter how worried I was about speaking, there was that accountability there that I was gonna do it, and the commitment was made. By being accountable to somebody else or being accountable to a result and making that commitment, I think that's the way to perhaps force yourself to do the thing. If it's what you truly want to do, but you just feel nervous about getting there. So for you, Ron, with with speaking in public, you say you know you don't feel ready. But if you commit to a Toastmasters competition or something like that, and you know then that's coming. So regardless of how you feel about it, it's important to prepare yourself and to still put the work in because you've already created that that expectation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and to be honest, I've smashed that devil at that level. But so if I was gonna say something that is real for me at the moment, it's the thought of outreach again in terms of trying to build the business. I can't be bothered. You know, going back into initiating conversations, but then that's because I'm making it mean something. I'm anticipating rejection or um yeah, and so that I make that make that mean something, and so I then let my feelings decide which moment, yeah, do it tomorrow, mate. That's there's no point on Friday, because it's virtually the weekend, isn't it? So might as well do that Monday. Oh look at that, I can't do it Monday. You know, it's it's it's based on that rather than the com the the commitment or the system and and and the pre-arranged commitment with myself. But I can understand why accountability would be interesting there. And I I'm partly tempted to just pick up on something you said around having to do it, but um yeah, I don't I don't think I will. But yeah, what what comes up for you, John, as you listen to speaking?
SPEAKER_00:I I've I've got a bit of a different view on accountability because what I think is uh this is how I view it is it's great to have that support, but just say, like you for you doing that best man speech, why because you did have a choice not to do it, you could have gone there, not for me, but why did you do it?
SPEAKER_02:Because on this occasion, for me, speaking in public is not something that I have a huge amount of fear around. So that wasn't actually it was an example that you know for somebody who doesn't want to speak in public, but for me personally, it wasn't an issue. But I'm sure there are things that I've said yes to, feeling like I don't have a choice when really I do have a choice, but then the fear of of saying no is greater than the fear of saying yes, despite the fact I don't want to do it.
SPEAKER_00:And what I find is like you imagine the relationship you get when someone asks you to do something which you don't want to do, and you do it for them. So like that relationship's strong, isn't it? Because you're they're going, I know you don't want to do this speech, but you're doing it and and you won't back out because you honour them so much. Like that thing of saying no, you would you would prefer to put yourself through that uncomfortable experience rather than disappoint them. I think we can do that for us. In other words, like when we commit to ourselves, and this some people call it the higher selves, I think that future self, like when you go, I am doing this for you. So when I don't want to put post this and have that, when you have that same commitment that you'd have for someone else for you, the self-efficacy you get is huge because you just go, rather than go, just like you say, I'm not gonna let you down, you go, I'm not gonna let myself down. And then what I find is because what I found is if I'm not saying it's bad because I think it does, it has got leverage, but then what I find is if you're say you've got a good accountability partner, you might avoid them then, or you might go, Oh, I know I'm gonna, I know I'm not gonna follow through on this, so I'm not even gonna commit to it. But I think when you're so you have that same accountability with yourself, it's huge. And the byproduct of it is you do this stuff, but you start loving yourself even more because there's this side that never wants to do it, but you're so committed to that future, and it's like this other side thanks you. That's what I've that's what I've always thought about accountability. I think sometimes it can be good, but I've always thought I want to be accountable to myself and move through that fear so I can go. I'm really scared of this, but my future self is gonna thank me. They want this, I can't let them down. Here we go, and off we go.
SPEAKER_01:I like the sound of that, but that sounds so far away sometimes. Well, that's my microphone.
SPEAKER_00:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:Well, your cheap mic. Sorry. I just thought it was a wart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I know there's a massive thing on. I mean, sometimes I go. One thing that's helped me is um like and you could argue this is accountability, although it's not really because I'm not promising them. I see like my boys, like I want my boys to see that you're scared, you move forward and do all that sort of stuff. But I think even if it is far away, I don't think it's an overnight thing, you just go, oh yeah, I'm gonna do it, but you do it small steps, and that's what I found was like I go to stuff sometimes, and I still back away from loads, probably loads of stuff, but there's some stuff I go and go, oh god, I don't want to do this. But doing it for you the same way you do it for someone else, for me, it just you walk around going, I fucking love myself. You know, this is this is great. I've got this great relationship because I've got one pulling me, and this other one with compassion going, come on, off we go, we're gonna do it, and then we rest and then we level up. And I just think then you know the thing you're putting off. This is my view, you can be honest and go, I'm just putting that off, I'm scared. But when I'm ready, I know I'll go. I know I'll go. And yeah, I I just think it's a great thing to harness because the byproduct of it is an amazing relationship with yourself, really. Because you because you've got that same relationship. Like if you've got a friend that you never let down that always shows up for you no matter what, you love them, don't you? And you think, fuck me, they are dependable, they're good, and you have that with yourself. You know you're dependable, you show up, even when you don't want to. And for me, that is it's it's quite powerful really. Question marking on that if I can.
SPEAKER_02:Because I I think that no questions, no, not tonight. I think there are many things that I do value myself or love myself enough to have my own back on to that extent. But like Ron just said, for some things it feels like a an impossible task. It feels so far away. So how do you how do you allow yourself to harness it in the same way for something that does feel beyond like something you because if you have self-belief in certain things and you know, I responsibilities I have or certain things I do for other people, certain things I do for myself, and this is something I've learned, you know, from losing weight, making the gym, for example, part of my lifestyle, something that's very important to me, which before I used to just stack off after a couple of months, because I I've I've given myself that importance and self-love to do that. But then some things like becoming a coach full-time, or I don't know what, it just seems so far off. I don't feel like I can apply the same rules or the same tool to actually do that.
SPEAKER_00:And I'll ask you a question. Why is that? Why why do you think you can't apply the same to the coaches?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's a lack of self-belief. It's it's a bit the belief that I can't do it.
SPEAKER_00:And this is the thing. What I've what I've learned about belief is we can't rely on it because we don't have it. We don't and but this is something I learned with the time hackers, is a lot of people you say, Oh, you got as long as you're in 51% belief, we go on the thing of 1%. If you're doing something, if you haven't given up altogether, like just say you're doing something, we tell ourselves we're not in belief, but you go, but you're still trying it. You like things that you don't really want to do or really don't believe you do, you often just don't do them. But when you're doing something, you're in the game, but you're like you there's clearly belief there, otherwise you wouldn't you wouldn't even still be in the game. And this is where the commitment's so key commitment and courage and that compassion, because you go, you you do it. I did a talk on this at the Home Life in You. You this is doing it messy. You do it before you believe. And that in its really small steps, it's not like suddenly you're in front of 10,000 people, but you go and and your brain's going, we don't know fucking this is awful. It's terrible, we don't know what we're doing. And you go, yeah, you're right, and we're gonna do it. And for me, it's the short it is the shortcut. I think the amount of things I've coached on and gone, oh, I don't know about this. Okay, well, and and you got but you think I must have a belief because I'm starting it. You must have a belief because you're you're you're doing it, you're considering it, and I think waiting for belief, I realize like belief is you got your goal, your action is out of line with your belief, and there's a lot of discomfort.
SPEAKER_01:Like your cam like your camera. Sorry, John. Sick dodgy microphone, shit camera. Carry on, mate.
SPEAKER_00:That belief will catch up, but often I don't think always, I think you you build belief. Like since I've left the police, my belief is so strong now that what I'm gonna do is work will work. When I left, I'd say it was in the low 10%, less than that. But I didn't have time to wait to believe. And and and I go, and I think you build that belief as you go, and you have an action plan and a belief plan, but you commit and get going before you believe. Otherwise, your belief is always going, oh we can't do it, we can't do it. You literally disprove that belief by moving. That's my view.
SPEAKER_02:What about yourself, Ron?
SPEAKER_01:What was what was the the question? I mean, did you ask a specific question? I was sorry, mate. I zoned out as the devil at every level after that. Was there a specific question?
SPEAKER_02:In terms of the the the scale of things, but I think it was actually with you that that it started, you know, some things it it's it's a good theory, but to actually apply it to certain things seems too far away. Do you have any thoughts on how to bring yourself closer to that or to kind of take action regardless in order to still move towards that goal, even if you don't have belief there yet?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think I think what comes up to me a little bit like John is is to get clear on what I want and the commitments that I'm gonna make ahead of time. So that it yeah, if we lose use the gym one, if my if my health is important to me or I want to lose this amount of weight or lift this amount of weight, this is the process plan and this is the commitment three times a week. I'll go to the gym as as an example. So that's how I'd logically tell myself about it. And I think if I go, if I talk about that in terms of business, then it will be um knowing what targets I want to hit in terms of revenue, for example, working out how many clients that would take to get me there, and then making or making a commitment to show up and send X amount of messages or to invite for X amount of conversations, things that I can control on my way to get that. Am I there yet? 100% no, no. Um work work in progress. And I think I think that's something really important to mention. Is regardless of background or or role or job, there's there's always something to learn. Um, and there's always a different challenge and there's a saying.
SPEAKER_00:Um there's a devil I can't remember it.
SPEAKER_02:I don't I don't want to say it, it's not mine. Are we gonna just just we should have agreed this before actually starting to record this episode, but are we gonna finish by all three of us saying it no beautiful?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it looks like it.
SPEAKER_00:One thing I found though, this is what I found is really one of the keys, is you've got to have a good relationship with yourself. Because often we don't chase a goal because if we fail that goal, we make it mean something about us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You and and so if we But when you don't need the goal, and it's taking me a long time to get to this, Mike, when you go, I don't need this, if this doesn't work, this fundamentally means nothing about me, then you can be a hundred percent in. If you are whole, as in like you think if you've got nothing to prove about yourself, and this thing means nothing about you, so weight loss warrior, your coach, whatever it is, it means nothing about you as a person, and you go, I'm gonna try and double this, I'm gonna do it, and you go for it and it fails. It's like, so what? But it's often because of what we make it mean when it fails, which is why the fear comes up, and then we tell ourselves, well, we need to believe before we get going. But I just find it becomes fun because you can go, well, that seems really far away. Let's commit and let's go. And yeah, and you just but you're not taking you're just taking consistent action every day, little bit and showing up, and then suddenly you see this thing become closer, it comes closer. But I'd be interested is like I've probably run out of time soon, but like those things that you think are out of reach, and we all think certain things are out of reach, but when you realise that's the ceiling, and we go, Oh, I can't go and do it because I don't believe I can go and get it, and you think that's the reason we should probably set it as a goal, because there's a limiting belief there that is it's like it's just like a restrictor on you, and it's gonna feed itself until you go out and disprove it.
SPEAKER_02:And quite often the thing that we're chasing that we think is so far out of reach and we can't do, we hold a candle to it, but we we make it so important, or we have an expected outcome, or we think it's gonna create X result, but it doesn't even happen in that way sometimes, anyway. So there's no way to know. So quite often, you know, we give so much importance to something, and I think this is aligned to what you're saying, you know, both of you, but rather than just actually getting on with it, breaking it down into to behaviors, to actions that can actually get you there, we make so much about what it's means if we get there or if we don't, but it kind of holds us still. And yeah, I I want to I want to share a quote at risk of of kicking off again. No, but you know what, people I actually I don't know if you subscribe to James Clear's email from Atomic Habits, but he's not used there, is he? I'm sure he's got a better lawyer than me as well, so I'm not gonna even question that. But he sent one an email out today, and I just thought, because we're having today's conversation, it was an object in possession seldom retains the same charm that it had in pursuit. And that kind of made me step back a bit because I started thinking, yeah, it's it is about the process, not necessarily for result. Because when you get there sometimes, I've heard time and time again people talk about when they got hundred thousand followers, when they made their first million, when they did this, when they did that. It didn't live up to their expectation of what it they thought it was gonna mean.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and where you are now is was once your dream, wasn't it? And let's be honest, like we talk about I remember when I first started coaching, I remember led on my bloody bed, but getting coached and going, Oh my god, how am I gonna get these guys? I'd literally just signed up to coaching. They went, but what's and this is the key, they went, what's the one thing you have to do today? Oh, I've got to read that book, then that's all you're doing. And you realize, and asking that question, what's the one thing I need to do today? But like now, my dream was to be left the police and be coaching. And I'm like, well, I'm there, but then we want to chase, we want to chase, we want to chase, and I think it's that balance of being grateful and having, and realize anything because of dopamine, anything you get, you won't, you will no longer want unless you consciously draw your attention to it because your brain is wired just to go out and get more. And I think that can be where you get the danger of being, which is a lot of people I coach, have a lack of fulfillment. They're very successful, have a lot, but not very fulfilled because they're chasing that dopamine was always the next.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. You're saying about when you first died just made me think that poor Ron had to deal with me in coaching. When he met me, I was gonna set up a spice business. I was gonna be selling seasons and rubs. Well, you thought you meant to spice us in the drugs. Oh no, I accomplished that years ago.
SPEAKER_00:It's probably easier money, if I'm honest. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think they have a devil at every level? I mean, you might be able to speak to that. Yes, the drug dealers.
SPEAKER_00:But it is interesting, but it is interesting as well, listening to everyone, because everyone's got everyone has got that level, haven't they? Like, this is the thing is that we've all set. I think this is the ironic thing is we think of it as like a physical thing, but like we've set this with our mind.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, all being taught.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, but it's still with our minds.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Our mind has accepted this limitation. I was speaking to someone the other day, and he was said, when he was going for a job, he said to his dad, There's this promotion at work, and he went, Oh, don't know about that, son. I think you've reached your level. And he was like, Well, I don't think I have. But he but this is how limiting beliefs are adopted. Someone else puts their limiting belief on you through normally love, protection. I don't want to see you fail. So then that we've had we've then agreed with that unconsciously and set the ceiling, which is exactly why we should set those goals, because we want to be able to give those beliefs back and realize there is no limit, it's only the one we're setting all the time. That's it. And I think the reason when you say it feels so big, I wonder if it is because of the feelings you'll feel. As in, like that fear, and what I've realized is it's we've when you can along the way increase your capacity for fear and self-doubt and realise that will come up, but if you've got a bigger container for it, it doesn't become so much of a problem. You're like, oh yeah, I feel anxious, I feel fair, but you can take it with you. I think it gets smaller as you do the same thing, but I think as you keep doing this thing, your capacity for it just gets bigger. And that for me is the key because then there is no limit. There is no limit, and it becomes really quite fun in a way, because you go, next time I know I just got to set this goal, I've got to set the goal, commit, fill the fear, rest, measure the winds, go again. And I really believe if you keep going, you'll get there, whatever you're doing.
SPEAKER_01:Love it. I think I think we're almost there for today. And I'm curious if there's some facts that you want to spit at as Carl, having spent hours researching this.
SPEAKER_02:So all I really want to say is from from my research, the earliest known saying of there's a devil at every level was by Tyrese Gibson, who is a famous actor, singer. He was in Fast and Furious, not known for his philosophical speeches or quotes, but that was the earliest I could find. Was he the one that died? No, that's Paul Walker. Um I don't know if Paul Walker was his I said it like I was telling you off. How dare you not know that? Um but I don't know if Paul Walker was his character or his actual real name, so I'm not sure if I got that right either. But there's various versions of it. Um another version was that it came from uh um like a gospel church many years ago as well. So there's variations of it, but I think probably in some way or another it's it's existed. However, I will find out exactly who I got it from and find out if we can credit them.
SPEAKER_00:I like getting these conversations circle back it, circle back round, because we started off talking about pleasing yourself, and now we're talking about fast and furious, and it's like it just sort of all sort of blends in nicely, doesn't it? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Well, on that on that on that climax of uh an ending, I reckon we call it quits there and see if we get more than three lists. Well, yeah, but uh you know, other people. Um yeah, well, why don't we do another one again in a month or in the new year? Yeah, I'd be happy to. Awesome. Great. Thank you very much, guys. Lots of love, love you both.
SPEAKER_02:Bye bye, you too, mate. Love you more.
SPEAKER_01:Me a bit more, probably.