Forging Resilience
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Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
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Forging Resilience
S3 Ep89 Judith Kromberg: Belonging Without Borders
In this conversation, I sit down with Judith Kromberg a political scientist shaped less by theory and more by lived experience. Judith has worked across post-conflict environments with the UN and EU, lived in multiple countries, and now finds herself in Sweden, studying the relationship between the European Union and Greenland. What stands out isn’t the roles she’s held, but how consistently she’s followed her own internal compass while moving through complex systems, cultures, and identities.
We talk about what it means to belong to a place, a culture, and to yourself and how that sense of belonging can become a base from which to explore rather than something that confines you. Judith reflects on growing up Catalan, living as an outsider in different countries, and learning how cultural intelligence, accountability, and self-awareness shape how we navigate unfamiliar environments.
The conversation also moves into resilience not as a performance trait, but as something forged quietly through uncertainty, recovery, and adaptation. From post-war Kosovo to long hospital stays after a life-changing accident, to researching Inuit resilience in Greenland, Judith offers a thoughtful, human perspective on how people survive, adapt, and make sense of the worlds they move through.
Throughout, Judith’s compass points to a simple, powerful stance: stay curious, hold yourself accountable, and keep asking better questions across borders and beliefs.
If this conversation sparked something, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves big questions, and leave a review with your favourite takeaway so others can find us too.
Welcome to Fortune Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. Join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life, so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today I'm joined by Judith Gromberg. Judith is a political scientist, international relations specialist who has spent her life exploring the world with courage and curiosity. She's worked in UN peacekeeping in Kosovo, advised the European Union, lived across eight different countries, and is now pursuing a PhD on Greenland and the EU. What's unique about Judith is the thread between it all. A woman who's trusted her own compass from an early age, drawn a strong sense and depth of belonging from home, and used that safety to explore some of the world's most complex places. Judith, welcome to the show, Forge and Resilience.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, Ian. Hola, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:So, Judith, I'm I'm drawn straight away to um political science, and what drew you to study that?
SPEAKER_01:Political science, well, the approach has changed throughout the years for sure. But 20 years ago, when I decided to study political science at Universidad Autonoma Barcelona, that's where I'm from originally, Barcelona, I felt my identity was based on this feeling different towards others because I felt so Catalan and I was too young at the age of 16 to realize what was happening. But it felt that there was a political situation that I wanted to understand. So then I asked people who were a little bit older than I was at the time to see what they were doing at political science. So I joined, completely different from what I expected, and I really enjoyed it. And then once you're at university, you can choose whether if you want to specialize yourself in public administration to understand how the state works, or if you want to take the international relations option, that was me years later, or you can specialize yourself in specific policies like health policy, or like um if you want to work for the government, you need to specialize yourself on one of the options. So, long story made longer, it was political science had an expectation, and something completely different happened along the way. So, yeah, that's pretty much why I chose political science.
SPEAKER_00:Did did did studying political science um answer some of your questions, or did it leave you with more way more questions than answers, definitely.
SPEAKER_01:And so it was a little bit like an introduction to many interesting books to be read and like knowledge to understand, but it was just a brief introduction. And even it was like four or five years. This is when I realized what is it that I now like and what I'm not so interested in. And I struggled with economy and statistics, but yet the more of the social side of it, and and why do societies work the way they do, and what's our role? And are we based on individual choices or are we the result of our environment? Is there a political agenda behind our lives? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, fascinating. I didn't think I was gonna go here, but now I've got a political scientist in front of me. I I am curious about a couple of little things then. So the sarcastic part of me wants to ask: do politicians study political science and politics?
SPEAKER_01:Well, Erin, it is a good question, actually, because many years ago it was not like that. But now I've been back to my faculty 20 years ago, and there's a very specific profile of um students who belong to the youth section, sections of these political parties because their path and their goal is very clear. They want to become politic politicians as such. Uh, it's it is well-paid money, and you feel you do have a purpose, and um yeah, it is an option. And it's quite um, I would say from my point of view, um not so not so good for the faculty because we're not so exposed to different backgrounds. It's it's quite clear, and now that makes them a pattern. So yeah, I I wish pol I wish politicians would study political science, but I think that political science should always be combined with some other discipline. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's interesting. That makes sense that yeah. Yeah. Um, I can just gently park that, but we'll come back on to that, I'm sure, Judith. So just to help us understand a little bit about your story and background and what brings us to be speaking today.
SPEAKER_01:Political science is just a label. And you can claim you've read a lot of books and you've passed certain tests, but it's what you make out of the knowledge you learn. And of course, you're very young, and and the theory is very easy, but then the tricky part comes when you have to implement what you've learned, not only for the grid, but we know, and probably the audience can relate to that at so many different levels. So, my point being is I do feel comfortable in my reality, but yet I feel I would like to find out what's behind the valley. So, this is where I always had sort of the I was thirsty for something different, feeling very comfortable, not always easy, because you feel you're Catalan, but you feel that there's some some other ways of doing things. So a little bit feeling like an outsider, but an in-betweener, which it can be a great superpower or it can be it can make you weak in the sense that if you're not aware and you feel different, you might have to work on it at some point and gain awareness. But when you're young, that's difficult actually. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, you're the now the second Catalan guest that I've had on the show. So thanks, Judita. And I'm I'm curious, yeah, since you've brought it up now twice. So what what does it mean to you to be Catalan?
SPEAKER_01:To be Catalan, it is part of my identity. That's an at an individual level. And I would like to share with you audience. Sorry, Erin, for the spoiler, but you speak such perfect Catalan. You are the foreigner that speaks best the best Catalan I've ever heard. So thank you so much for that. It's much appreciated from us. But going back to what it means to be in Catalan, it feels there's an identity that's part of me. It's I've questioned that throughout the years because whenever you live abroad, you're sort of rooted, but at the same time you flow, so you're open to other cultures, and then you question your own. But in my case, being Catalan feels like a strong stepping stone, not necessarily something that cannot be changed, that cannot be moved. But I could go on and on about the historical side and the political side and the struggles we've gone through and how I would believe my generation, we have sort of inherited, I would say, historical traumas, um, without it sounding too dramatic. But that's how we feel. We feel we've been inheriting a lack of uh acknowledgement throughout um neighboring nations. And so this affects your mindset at some point because you are exposed throughout the centuries to a narrative, and you do not have the chance to question that. So if you ask different people what it feels like to be Catalan, I'm sure there's many different reasons, but it's just this unresolved sort of matter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm what I'm sensing then in in your answer that and for me this is always an interesting discussion, especially being here, like you said, being the foreigner, that I can sometimes now, after being here for so many years, sense a tension and un sometimes unspoken tension between different groups of peoples that doesn't make this discussion very common. And we're not I don't think we're gonna go there today, but it is always interesting f for me as an outsider, and I recognize that I am sat in Catalunya, married to a Catalan woman where we predominantly speak Catalan and we have an agenda. So it it's very interesting for me to have an open conversation, a healthy conversation around this without it going to an argument or yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and and I would say that in your case, Erin, coming from a British background where you also have nations and and states and and like living different identities in a different way with a different political past, uh, the easy option would have been for you, oh yeah, this is very different in regards to Britain. But yeah, it is very different. But at the same time, something must feel familiar because what we feel like in Catalonia, those who believe in independence, is that it's not a unique claim. We share common, there's a common denominator. But without getting too political, I think this is what clicks in my head and says, hold on, I'm different. Is it because I'm different at a social level or at an individual level and why?
SPEAKER_00:I would I would reflect that question straight back to you. So for you, is it at an individual level, Judith?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a never-ending journey. I think the more I spend time back at home in Catalunya, in certain ways I feel very much a shared feeling and a shared sense and a shared identity. But then when I'm sort of abroad, I do step away from certain parts of the Catalan society. So I pick and choose, and I feel I'm I'm very grateful for having the freedom because if you do not have the freedom to choose, then you have to go with what you have. But yeah, it it never ends actually.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that the last question around uh the the Catalan thing from me, and that is what what would you hope an outsider listening would would want to take away about uh uh uh a modern voice or a new voice around Catalan in terms of you you mentioned taking historical traumas and yeah, I'm curious what what what voice would you want other people to hear?
SPEAKER_01:I would just like to ask the audience whenever they read or hear about Catalunya to try and read different sources and even question my point of view today. Whether if it's whether if you agree or you don't, but just contrast. And so maybe there's as I said a narrative that uh it interests certain actors and stakeholders in society both ways, both ways, maybe. So maybe even this division um benefits someone. So just try and read and and and yeah, even if you do not agree with uh certain media, just go for it and see what comes out for you.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. Um, Judith, you have worked in lots of different and interesting places, and I and I read an article that you wrote around Kosovo and talking about how that was such an educational uh experience for you. What what did you learn about yourself and that place when you were working there from your perspective, Judith?
SPEAKER_01:What did I learn? I would say, what did I learn? I'm still learning. I still remember my local colleague. Uh, we were working in the Serbian side of the north of Kosovo with Kosovo-Abanians and Kosovo-Serbs. Let's say they're still killing each other, uh, up to date, but you won't read that in the media. There's a lot of tension, extremely tough environment to work. And she said, this was back in 2015, and she said, Judith, you you are learning a lot now, daily. No problem. Yeah, absolutely. It was undeniable. So many things happened at the same time. But then she said, you're learning things now that you don't know. And like in a few years' time, you will realize, and that's the case. And I felt that Kosovo teaches you how you cannot control the present. And so it's this uncertain um present. Because there's you don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, you have no idea. So then life throws you back to you where you did not expect, and then you're like, hold on, but how how did my brain manage in a tough environment like Kosovo? So I think what I learned in Kosovo was uh do not have expectations. Do not have expectations, and so whatever comes to you, try and crack the system, try and see whether if it's good for you, try and see whether if it's not good, why? And I would say Kosovo is a I would say quite challenging environment. What it's it's an easy word to use, and probably your friends and colleagues and audience they've been in in conflict uh situations or post-conflict areas, so it's quite uh generic to say it's challenging, but it's challenging on a daily basis for something as easy as going to work. You don't know how you're gonna get to work. Will you be able to drive down that down that road? Or or will you ever see that person again? And so it's challenging in many, many, many ways. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:How did you end up in Kosovo?
SPEAKER_01:I would say from being very privileged, and and I own it, and I'm very thankful that I was privileged enough to go to a school where I learned English. I got to university, the Catalan government was had a project with the University of Pristina, capital of Kosovo, after the war. Um, so the university was basically not running, and a few of the buildings had been burnt down. So the Catalan government developed a project in Pristina. And so they were looking for students in Catalonia who could go to the University of Pristina and like run a workshop with students to explain what their rights and obligations were as students, especially after a conflict where like everything is run down. So I was very privileged. I could express myself in English and I could sort of hold hold this workshop, but at the same time, it I learned so much from them. This this was my click. I was like, yeah, yeah, I can come to them and explain how things work at Catalan universities and how unions work. Nine. I learned so much from them. I was like, you know what? I think I have to now change my approach completely. I was 19. 19, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I can't I can't begin to imagine what that experience must have been like from cozy little Barcelona to um to the complications of of post-war um Pristina.
SPEAKER_01:And I I'm not sure if it's something positive, but I had no expectations because little did I know about Kosovo. For me, the Balkans were just the Balkans. It was just like, oh yeah, that part of the world. I I didn't know that the difference between Bosnia, Montenegro, uh, northern Albania or Macedonia. I had no idea. So I just on a one-week ticket landed in Pristina and said, okay, what's next? I had no expectations. I had no I I had done no research whatsoever. So then it was just what what I felt like a first-hand experience. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And how long did you end up staying and working there for?
SPEAKER_01:So that oh yeah. So that time it was just a couple of weeks. And then I can't I I went back. Oh, uh, and those two weeks in Kosovo, I saw these white vehicles with these two letters on their side saying UN, and they were doing a great job. And uh we managed to meet people from the UN, and then I asked them, what do I need to do to do exactly your job? And so they said you have to study political science, you have to study international relations, make sure you've lived abroad, that you gain multicultural experience, and then you just apply. So that's what I did. So once I graduated from my BA and then my MA, my goal was to go back to Kosovo and work for the UN. So my thesis was about the ethnic minorities in the north of Kosovo, and that's where I would end up deployed working for the UN. But I also worked for NGOs and Council of Europe and the European Union, so all in all, six years of my life.
SPEAKER_00:Did how how was that experience um for you, especially once you you set that as a target to go there and work, to go and help? How was after you've been exposed to that and you'd gone through the process, how was your expectation um and reality when you were there working during that six years?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I would say watch for what you wish because uh getting there is exciting. You have the goals and step at the time, but then once you actually get hired and they say off you go, off you go, that the mountain, and off you go, good luck with all the mines and good luck with all the uh I remember driving the UN car, and I see that I saw the reflection of the car, me driving on like a window, and I thought, oh, whoa, okay, this is for real. Uh okay, okay, so but hold on, I I achieved my goal, but what's next now? So, what was next now was um face the job, learn as much as you can, and um the fact it was never a nine to five job, every day was different. So then you really had to be ready for whatever was happening, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:How how did you manage to look after yourself and your own emotional needs when when you're working in such a challenging environment to the so looking backwards now, I I would say I was not taking care of myself at the levels I do now, but I would go to the gym a lot because that's what they encourage you to go.
SPEAKER_01:They encourage you to go to the gym and they encourage you to go to therapy uh and then to socialize, because yeah, you socialize with people who feel and leave something so similar to what you are. So there's a great sense of uh union and it feels fantastic. So, but did I take my care of myself as I should have? Probably, I think it's like a paradox because if I would think too much of what was happening, I think I would have said, see a later alligator, probably. So I would take care of myself basically by extracting myself from that very specific situation, especially when it was very hostile. So you you recommended to go somewhere else, and it's called um rest and recuperation, R. And so you you you get some holidays, let's say some days off. And I would um I would travel a lot within the area, and also we had a flat in Budapest in Hungary, which was home where I lived for three years. So then over the weekends I would just go to Budapest and hang out with my normal friends whatsoever in a normal city, and then feel that I had both worlds. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah. So it's like transitioning and taking breaks from that environment. Yeah. And why why did you decide to leave? Or what brought the end to that chapter of your life?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, first of all, I I hold on to Kosovo very, very long because usually you're only supposed to be there for like 40 years, and I was there for six years. But because the next step was probably taking me to Africa, to UN missions in Africa. Which they're very dangerous, or I didn't feel comfortable enough, but it was about time. But one of my best friends, Katin, she's Norwegian, we were in a taxi together one day, and we promised each other that whenever we would get very frustrated with locals, it was time to leave. Because it's their society, and by the end of the day, you're there to empower the way to empower them so that they learn how to solve their own um issues. You're not there to be patronizing, you're not there to just get um a really generous salary at the end of the month and complain. So that day was when we're in a taxi, taxi driver took the wrong turn, could happen to anyone, and we're like, how is this possible? So it was very possible because like six months later we were out of there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And were the locals appreciative of your efforts and the things you were you doing? Or was it just another outsider trying to meddle in their affairs?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. The UN mandate experienced many ups and downs. It's not the same joining a UN mission at the beginning of the mission, where like it's they usually think it's gonna be three or four or five years, and then they're out. But that never happened. It's still ongoing. So, like the first years, yeah, it was great, and locals were very appreciative. But then when I rejoined in 2010 and then in 2015, the situation had changed a lot. They were tired and they were like, where are the results? You guys come here, you get a lot of money, but what about us? So that was a little bit the local perception. But then again, I was deployed initially to such a random small, challenging area in between Serbia and Kosovo that I thought I can stay in my office, drive around the UNG, do the bare minimum, take all the boxes, or I get off the car and I start talking to locals and I hang out with the five different ethnic minorities, and I hang out with them, and I get to meet the firemen and the police and the politicians because just to make it sort of a long story shorter, imagine a town with a double system in place, two governments. So firemen that were run by the Serbian government and by the Kosovo government. So everything was double, and most of them wouldn't talk to each other. And there, I was in the middle basically, trying to find um a middle ground approach. So that's when I was like, I really have to make a difference. And even if like 10 years later people still ask about, oh yeah, the girl from Barcelona who managed for us to have like beds in hospital or an AC, I'm just happy with that. But I really wanted to make a difference, even if it was just for for like yeah, one person that would remember what I did, but that sounds quite egocentric. But I think I contributed to Lefo Savage actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I understand, yeah, yeah. And I guess it goes back to to expectations as well, really, about having having uh an intention as to why why you're there and understanding the part of the game that you are playing there. Yeah, challenging. What happened after Kosovo, Judith? Where did you where did life take you?
SPEAKER_01:So life sometimes has other plans, and my plans were to apply for for a UN mission. And uh I was on a six-month break back home at my parents in Barcelona. And one of my passions since I was eight was horse riding. And I actually was horse riding in Kosovo, it was awesome. It was a fantastic experience, and I would always convince everyone to come horse riding in the middle of knowing Kosovo. So when I was back home, I felt like continuing with the horses, which I think and I believe that they're absolutely therapeutic. Like horses are like um a way to connect with oneself, which is very powerful, at least for me. So then I was involved in a horse accident or horse-related accident in Barcelona. I was quite brutal, brutal, and so I ended up in yeah, brutal, brutal. I ended up in hospital for four months. Um and it was it was quite tough, as in I do not have many memories of what happened, but I remember being in hospital and uh and then uh every day was just like uh not knowing what would happen. And so I remember being in hospital, which which it's kind of painful sometimes because more than 11 surgeries and uh being in all sorts of uh intensive care and intensive, intensive, intensive care, and then being fine. And so I I've I definitely learned a lot. I was not in a position to realize I was learning because I was in shock completely. But now when I have friends or or relatives who have to be in hospital for one reason or another, I'm like happy to share those things I would have liked to know at the time because it's such a you never expect to be in hospital. That's not something you're thinking, oh, at some point I will end up in hospitals. So then when you're there, you're like, ooh, okay, so what's next? I just feel like a lot of gratitude to the medical team. And uh, I still have today after effects of the accent, but uh the doctors were fantastic and my family, my family were absolutely amazing. So I think without them I would not have recovered as much as I have, probably. But uh yeah, and then there was the moment where doctors are not sure if I'll walk again. So um, yeah, that that was a time of trust and faith, 100%. Yeah. But nowadays I'm walking in the forest every day for an hour, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. Um I'm I'm yeah, we've talked about uh this a little bit. I'm curious, what do you what would you want like friends or family members to know when they go into hospital that you didn't?
SPEAKER_01:Hospital feels like a place that sucks your energy so much as a patient and someone who's with the patient all along. Because it's just like such an intense place, not only feelings and energies, and you name it, but it's the process that every person sitting or laying in those beds are going through, no matter what the condition is. It's first of all, you don't want to be there, but at the same time you want to be there, because if you were not there, who would who would help you get out of there? But then um I would say, and I usually say, it's about you. It's about the one who's in that bed, and it's not about the others. And if you're I used to be a little bit of a people's pleaser person, but I just sort of shut down and I just wanted to see my family, my closest family, and really nice friends from all over the world. They traveled to Barcelona and I said, I'm so sorry. I cannot now meet you. So it was my closest families and then family, and then when I went home for two years, I was laying in bed for almost two years, then people could come and my friends, and it was great, and it felt really good. But the hospital was a place where the most I would say strong emotions within human humanity come along because you can be extremely happy, extremely sad, in extreme pain. And then there's these angels that are the doctors and the nurses who basically shed a little bit of light in a very dark moment. And so, yeah, something sort of changes there. And if you do not expect to end up in hospital, it's gonna be a shock. It's a complete shock, and your brain is processing that something is happening and you don't know what it is. So, yeah, yeah, take care of yourself as much as you can, even if you are at at your lowest point.
SPEAKER_00:Um I know you're sat sat in Sweden, and and that's one of the reasons why we've we've come to talk about today, really. And I'm I'm I'm curious what your experience is like having lived in so many other places in the world. Um and yeah, being uh being a foreigner in in Sweden, how's that experience for you?
SPEAKER_01:And um Yeah, it's funny because in Catalan, Erin, you know, but for those listening to us, there's an expression that makes no sense in English, but in Catalan is when you pretend to be Swedish or you play along as a Swedish person, fers or suek. So, and it it it would be like something like when you bump into someone at the supermarket and they pretend they haven't seen you and they walk, they they walk away, and you're so shocked, and you're like, why would someone do that? Because in a Mediterranean culture, we're more based into like the small talk and the bonding and and like the sort of relationship-based um uh whether if it's a friendship or or getting along with people you work, it's first like, oh, I think I like you, I think we get along well, let's go for it. But then in Sweden, it's completely the opposite. It's like, what's the task? Once you have proven your worth with that task, then we can get along well. So it's completely the opposite. So thank God there's IKEA, IKEA, because it shows you IKEA is Sweden 100%. There's a very clear, uh, there usually very clear instructions for every piece of furniture. Stick to the instructions. Please do not think that there's a better way of doing it. Stick to it and and think like a Swede. It's been challenging, and I would say Sweden is not for everyone. Not that I'm Indiana Jones, I don't want to be Indiana Jones, but you better have or develop or acquire cultural intelligence. Because coming to Sweden, there's an expectation. There is an expectation. We all think or we we think we know what Sweden is, and then you come to Sweden and it's different. For better and for worse, because so many things surprise you for positive, for better. But then afterwards, as a Mediterranean in the middle of the forest, in Sweden, where introversion is the norm. Yeah, I have a few white hairs, but it's fine. Yeah, I'm working on them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, what does cultural intelligence mean to you, Judith?
SPEAKER_01:I think it all comes to accountability and acknowledgement. And this is not all this is not only Sweden. This is for whoever is listening with your neighbors, with your relatives, if if possible. What am I accountable for? I'm in a new environment. This is how I think things should work. Definitely not the case. Where can I adapt without being counterproductive to myself? So do that's accountability. What my responsibility is to understand where I am. Whether if I like it, not like it, feel comfortable, whether if there's ups and downs, whether if you're homesick, whether if you love it, where are you? And by that I would say gather information, try and learn. My my my easy option was like to join university in Sweden and trying to understand from an anthropological point of view and history point of view, where do Swedes come from? That helped. But then also, um, that's more like the superficial side of it, but then within yourself, where am I? Why do I feel the way I feel? Why do I feel so different? Do I have to change? No, maybe not, but maybe you have to adapt. And maybe you need to know that if they work in boxes, because Sweden is all about boxes, not only care boxes, but you have to tick the box. And if you do not belong to any of these boxes, maybe, maybe try and fit in one of them, but acknowledging the fact of who you are. And if you do not know who you are, Sweden will slowly suck you in in a way that do not be too loud, do not think you're better than anyone, we are all equal, uh, do not impose your thoughts too much, which this is fantastic because it's it's a it's a very free, conflict-free society. But at the same time, if you do not know much about yourself, you might get lost.
SPEAKER_00:So, how have you seen this um play out in your own life then?
SPEAKER_01:I look backwards now and I'm thinking, wow, good job. Um, how does this play out? It plays out that you face a point where if you consider yourself a social person, you have no idea what's happening around you because it works completely different. And I always say, if you want to give Sweden a chance, it all comes to the time you have. How much time do you have? You know, Aaron, I love my neighbors, they're fantastic people. We live like in a street, it's not even paved, we're in in the middle of the forest, and they're fantastic people. Guess how long it took for them to come to us and for us to go to them and like trust each other now every five minutes? I would say four years. So, how much time and how much um effort are you willing to understand the time it takes? Or will you try and clash all the time with things back at home are different, things in Scotland are different, things are all around the world that are different. Why are you guys so different? Yes, Swedes are different. Ask why.
SPEAKER_00:Why? Oh, sorry, I thought you could no, but I I seriously were why, in your opinion, are they because um it's a very unique geography.
SPEAKER_01:For many centuries they've been isolated, and they've been exposed to sort of their own culture, Scandinavians and the Vikings, and they were quite explorers and and and tradesmen. And before I get to the Vikings conquering the UK and coming back to us these days, I think that their mechanism to protect themselves is time. I do not know who you are as a foreigner, I do not know what to expect from you. So you will have to prove it on your own with time through your actions and not your words, which I appreciate that a lot. Because in some Mediterranean cultures, it's all about blah, blah, blah, and then no action. But I think it also it's also the religious past. It's this Lutheran approach of uh you on your own, you have to be self-sufficient, and you have we have to be to base um our decisions on cooperation so that we make it through the winter. So it's not only the climate, it's not only the geography, it's the religious past, and um and also understanding that um it's how they are brought up. And maybe being an introvert is an asset. So probably through their education system, what they're trying to enhance within children is to become self-sufficient, which is fantastic. You will learn how to build a wooden house in the middle of the woods in case something happens. But then you might feel insecure socially in a party with 20 people. But what do you need in Sweden? Do you need do you really need to survive? Um will you learn how to survive by being popular in a party? Or will you survive winter through building a wooden deck? So I think it's going, it's really between the lines and what society expects from you so that society works. And and everyone pays their taxes, and everyone is always in general looking for the for the common good.
SPEAKER_00:So, from your perspective then, has this caused or does it from the outside looking in cause much tension then with foreigners that that are yeah, bringing their map of the world and then demanding everybody else sees it like them?
SPEAKER_01:That's such a good question, actually. Because when I was at uni 20 years ago, we would study Sweden as the paradigm of integration. And now this is not the case anymore. So I think Swedes are open-minded and they're friendly within their Nordic context. You cannot say, oh, yeah, in comparison to Americans, they're not friendly. Right. The small talk is probably not a thing in Sweden, but they're friendly. And if you ask for help, they will help. So you must always look into the picture and the context itself. So when foreigners come to Sweden, it comes to accountability. How accountable are foreigners when they come? So I'm talking out of privilege because, oh yeah, I could join uni and study anthropology, and now I'm writing a PhD and it's fantastic. But someone who's fleeing war, someone who's not in Sweden because they want to be here, because they're refugees, because what's behind them is game over. How accountable can they be? That's the question. And how do you match the pieces? Because I do believe that Sweden has had a very generous and welcoming policy for foreigners, whether if you want to catalog them as expats or refugees, or anyone welcome actually. But now I think this has to change because society has also changed and the migratory waves have changed, and the reasons behind these migratory waves have also changed. So something has to change. But I think it comes to how accountable you can be when you're when you're a foreigner. You cannot expect things to work the way they do back at home.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, which which which for me talks back to, I can relate to that, but to to some of the work that we've done in our similar-ish fields but different environments as well. You can't take a political system from the West and implement it onto the Middle East. It doesn't work. Um or if it does, it's very short term and it falls down and probably creates more problems and challenges. Um there's a there's a there's a societal narrative there, and that that's that's complex, and I guess that's where some of your studies and research comes in as well. So I'm I'm curious then what if we were just to brainstorm what what some of the things we can do as individuals to help at a a bigger level in terms of accountability and and responsibility.
SPEAKER_01:Once again, from privilege critical thinking. As a foreigner, whatever reason is it is that you're in Sweden, try and look for different reference reference points. I'm not saying you have to go svenson and blonde all along. Just try and find some other migrants who've moved to Sweden before you have from a similar background, and how have they managed to integrate without uh giving up on their roots? So Sweden has had for many generations like people coming from Chile, from Iran, from the Balkans, and in general terms, except for like uh now we have a problem with criminal gangs, but that's that started probably 2010. So that's that's that comes at a later stage. But what's happening now is that you have many people coming from different backgrounds, but instead of trying to look at previous generations of how they managed to be in Sweden and integrate, although the word would be not the most precise, nor assimilate, but how to adapt to the local society, instead there's like a generation of entitlement. You Swedes owe me blah, blah, blah. You Swedes are so wealthy and you're not giving me an opportunity. Sweden does give you an opportunity and to levels that I would say no other country resembles, like as a foreigner, they at the beginning. Like they provide for the Swedish lessons and they help you enter the system. And so if you want, you can. But what's easier? To feel to make it to be accountable, to make an effort to write, or you Swedes are not make doing enough for us. And this is so unfair. So it's these polarized narratives that once again, and going back to Catalonia, what we were talking earlier in this podcast, check different sources, check different, check different reference points, be as critical as you can. But then again, it's so easy. You open Instagram and the algorithm probably. Will not help to critical thinking. But before I blame it on social media, as a foreigner, it's gonna be challenging enough. So if you want to sort of maximize your energy at an emotional level and logistical level, try and understand where you are. Try and understand. And you don't always have to agree 100% with the local culture. But some of the differences probably we'll see. Is it a clash of civilizations? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Is this something, is this a challenge that you see in in other countries as well, Judith? Or is it more obvious in Nordic countries or in Sweden?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, applicable to other countries, definitely. You could find similar examples. I'm thinking about France, I'm thinking about Spain, I'm thinking about the UK. Like the pattern is changing, whether if it's because of the international system where we are, and um or is it because the numbers, because migratory waves are like bigger and bigger. Um but Sweden, from my perspective, this is just a personal opinion. I think they're quite naive. Because if if you come to Scandinavia, you'll realize people are so honest and they they they they're brought up thinking that you have to trust your neighbor. And it's really cute, actually. But it's not so cute when you don't know how to caliber this honesty and this naivete. Because it's great that you want to trust your neighbor and go for it. But then if someone who doesn't stick to these same rules doesn't prioritize honesty, then something has to change. So I think cultural intelligence and political intelligence would be understanding that something has to change, but not us and them. It's it's it's a whole, it's a society, and we have to work together. So, but yeah, as I said, these polarized narratives now, it seems it's um the easiest way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. There's this there's so many ways this could go. Some of them are rabbit holes, some of them are far beyond my understanding and even comfort, I might say, but that's part of the point, is to start open conversations about challenging challenging things. That's that's part of it. Um I am curious then to to hear, as I as as I sense, if if I'm if that's what I'm sensing, then it might be true for you as well. That's that that's not always easy to speak or voice those sorts of opinions. What's helped you find your place to be able to start asking these questions.
SPEAKER_01:It has helped at some point knowing where I belong. I know I know, I think I know where I belong. So once you have a solid foundation and you think not necessarily I know who I am, because that's always uh an ongoing path, but having a very solid sort of sense of belonging to my culture makes me feel like a guest. Um so probably the rules that apply within Scandinavia or like the Swedes among themselves do not necessarily apply to me because there's so many unwritten rules that you don't know unless you were born here, that maybe they're a little bit more flexible. It's funny because they're they're quite into ticking boxing boxes among themselves, but then with foreigners, they're quite flexible. And I think Swedes are very open-minded to the rest of the world. But what has helped me and my superpower has always been that I I feel comfortable with my identity and where I come from. And I I never felt forced. Now you have to stay in Sweden for the next 50 years of your life, because it's not the same having the choice or the option of going back to where you belong. So I've never been scared of rejection, because what's the worst that you can get? A no. You ask something, someone, and they say no. Well, in Sweden, they don't say no. It's quite the, as I said, non-conflict society. So they will say, we'll see, maybe. They'll never say no. So that makes it even easier. And like uh looking for jobs, they'll never say no. They they'll say, well, maybe apply in the future, and but they're very polite. But deep down, you you get what's being read or or said. But um in my case, my superpower is um feeling comfortable with who I am and knowing where I come from and where I belong. So I use it as a comparison point, but not necessarily claiming that where I come from is the best place. Not at all. Not at all. And understanding all the very positive things uh in in Sweden.
SPEAKER_00:Um what what are you learning about the the things that you're studying with your your PhD and its relations to EU um I think it all comes to resilience. Oh yeah?
SPEAKER_01:I think it comes to resilience, yeah, it does. Because the European Union comes across or wants to tell the world that it is a strong player. Then you dig down a little bit and then you see some nuances that maybe that's not the case. But nevertheless, what is the EU trying to protect to the world? But then when my my PhD has mentioned has to do with the EU and Greenland. And so we have a Western approach of I'm strong and I have a saying in international relations, that's the EU, and then of a sudden we're in Greenland. A complete different world. You won't find a place like Greenland, anywhere else in the world. Or I would say its inhabitants, the Inuits. Okay, yeah, they live in Alaska and parts of Russia. So the Inuit people living in one of the most extreme places in the world. Do you think that a flag with the yellow stars means something to them? Well, now, yes, because they're working on it, because it's the institutional uh path. But for centuries, the Inuit were seeing Dutch uh whale hunters fighting with the Danes. And the Inuits were with their wooden handmade kayaks looking, not understanding what was happening. So I cannot think of anyone else as resilient as the Inuits. So trying to match or trying to find the middle ground in between the most resilient people in the world, I'm exaggerating, of course, an anthropologist would not agree, with an institution that's the rational approach and the economy and the market, and then the Inuits who that day do not show up at work because they all have to go hunting so that they eat the rest of the year. So I think it comes to resilience. For the Inuits, how do they embrace this new institutional approach from an international relations perspective? And for the European Union, who always have an agenda and they always have a very clear um um way with other stakeholders and other states around the world, and nine nine nine, European Union, this is not how it works anymore. You really have to understand the Inuits, because if not, there's no way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. How much longer left have you got studying this, Judith?
SPEAKER_01:Hopefully it's been what years. So yeah, hopefully when I'm done, I'll come back to you and explain that I've become an Inuit myself.
SPEAKER_00:I look forward to it. I look forward to it. Um I'm curious if there's anything that we've not talked about today that you would like to mention before we start to close out, Judith.
SPEAKER_01:The fact we're having this conversation, as you mentioned, Erin, there's no answers. It's just sharing, and that's a very important first step. And something I've reconnected within Sweden, and it's been an absolute honor for my soul. Uh, there's an expression in Swedish called Lisa Fechwellen. It's it's an honor, it's it's warmth for your soul, and it's the perspective of life as when you're a kid. So being naive is an advantage sometimes, and sometimes it's a disadvantage. This is why I mentioned the calibrating when you should be naive. But regardless of that, it's the curiosity towards the world. It's how you connect with others. And this is how we probably met, Erin, in San Kukat, because you were curious about um someone that had a story about Greenland. And I was curious about someone who had been in the British special forces in the Middle East. It was the curiosity, no judgment, just something different. And and wow, how that's that's something that I wished we as adults would not lose throughout our adulthood. And and if you have children, I don't, we don't, but uh we we still find these moments of like reconnecting with our inner child. And it sounds a little bit like uh a little bit too naive, but I I I'm really, really grateful for that. Because when you are on adrenalina mode and you know that more than I do, in the middle of some secret mission, there's no time for the inner child. There's no time to reconnect with yourself. So whether if you're in Sweden or you're in Barcelona or you're in in wherever you are, I think that should be a lesson that comes with you always, always.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, curiosity, love it. And and I think yeah, it'd be nice to reflect that it's almost a year to the day that that we that we first met here in San Kogat. And um yeah, I'm very grateful to have met you for all your support and your nudges and ideas and conversations. Um, so thank you for spending the time speaking to me after many technical hiccups to get going. Um it's it's been a pleasure to speak with you, Judith, and uh, I look forward to seeing you again soon. So thanks very much for your time.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, and as we say in Swedish Samma, the same goes your way. It's been it was a very unexpected surprise to meet you, and I'm glad that we can still share our thoughts, our ideas, and and I really appreciate your support. So thank you so much, and hopefully see you soon in Sankougan. Kim Zaviat, gracias, Erin. Adio,