Forging Resilience
Join us as we explore experiences and stories to help gain fresh insights into the art of resilience and the true meaning of success.
Whether you're seeking to overcome personal challenges, enhance your leadership skills, or simply navigate life's twists and turns, "Forging Resilience" offers a unique and inspiring perspective for you to apply in your own life.
www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-hill-synergy-coaching
https://www.instagram.com/aaronhill_79/
Forging Resilience
S3 Ep94 Tom Dear: Creativity Is a Muscle
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This conversation with Tom Dear explores creativity not as artistry, but as a fundamental human capacity for problem solving. Drawing on his journey from amateur rugby into the creative and brand world, Tom reflects on the tension many high performers feel between seemingly opposing identities. Rather than choosing one side, he shares how learning to sit in the middle where structure meets play became a turning point in both his work and his sense of self.
A central theme is the distinction between pressure-driven action and genuinely creative states. Tom introduces the idea of NEA (Negative Emotional Attractor) and PEA (Positive Emotional Attractor) states, showing how urgency, stress, and constant stimulation can shut creativity down. In contrast, practices like play, nature, mindfulness, aspiration, and compassion open the space where insight and flow emerge often when we stop trying to force outcomes.
The conversation also gets practical. From simple doodling exercises to rethinking how leaders, founders, and creators approach content, branding, and idea generation, Tom offers grounded tools that help people access creativity without performance pressure. His approach reframes creativity as something already present, waiting to be unlocked rather than imported from outside.
At its core, this episode is about permission. Permission to loosen the tie, rethink how we work, and stop outsourcing creativity to “experts.” For high performers navigating transition, it’s a reminder that flow isn’t found through more force—but through creating the conditions where thinking, energy, and authenticity can reconnect.
Connect with Tom on LinkedIn, Instagram or via his website East and West Studio.
Welcome to Forge and Resilience, real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Aaron Hill, and join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Forge and Resilience, I'm joined by Tom Deere. Tom's a friend, former rugby player, turned surfer, designer, and a creative coach who helps build, which is like building, but a very creative way, builds brands from the inside out. In this conversation, we're going to explore flow, creativity, and a few moments in his story that shaped how he works, thinks, and creates today. Tom, mate, thanks for being here, buddy. Hey, I love it. Thanks for having me. No worries. Yeah, likewise, mate. I hope Joe Rogan isn't too annoyed.
SPEAKER_01:Um, no, no, he's fine. I uh he understands that you know that you come first.
SPEAKER_00:So he is a mate, so he'll get it. Um Tom, I think the first question I'm gonna ask is yeah, give us a bit of an introduction and uh a bit of uh of what's relevant in terms of your background story, mate, for today.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, mate. So um as of right now, I'm a creative director and um I said brand specialist. Um I think brand is probably the brand and creativity is likely gonna be where this conversation leads. So that's something that I am like fully immersed in. Um I come from the creative industry, been in the creative industry for nearly 15 years now. Um, and I've worked mainly in the sport, sport and retail space. I feel like that's where my head usually goes, so it lends itself quite nicely. Um and um, you know, whilst working, as you said, I was playing rugby. Um, I'd say competitive rugby, I know you've had a lot of professional rugby players on here, but I was definitely very, very amateur. But um, what I found within that was this unique ability of um creating this almost like creative athlete approach to to like creativity and and and my work, um, which I found was like a real nice little niche that I could really sort of own and sort of navigate the the design world from.
SPEAKER_00:Love it, mate. And I I know in following in in past conversations we've had, I think it's something really interesting. Um, around yeah, these are my words, not yours, the tension that sometimes we might feel between two dis what we anticipate are distinct worlds, as in creativity and rugby. And I've talked about this um with you as well, you know, my background and coaching, so military and backgrounding, or military and father, and the yeah, the sometimes all or nothing, or the sometimes that we're only one and not the other. I'm I'm curious if you'd like to speak to that a little bit, um, and and how your journey's evolved with yeah, that that the brutality of rugby versus the the yeah, the the the creative side as well, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean I think um historically, well, there's two things that I that come to mind here. I think historically, for me personally, I always felt like I had this yin and yan like like either the the rugby play in graphic designer or the graphic designing rugby player, and in either environments through probably like like a safety blanket for myself, I would dial up the juxtaposing piece. So around the rugby lads, you know, I would really talk about all the creative things that I'm doing. Like I used to make candles on the weekend and all this sort of stuff, which is obviously so far from the typical sort of rugby team sort of environment. And I really like owned that space, but almost like not in a dis uh like disingenuous way, but I just sort of like really amped that up, almost like cartoon-like character version, um, like a character, I guess. Um, and then equally on the opposite side, like like this is this is my ego took by said love on a Monday going into the design studio with like a black eye and you know, my ears hanging off and everything, and and everyone just being like, Jesus, what's happened to you? Because obviously, like typically in the design world, like that isn't usually how how things operate. Um, and equally, like the way I would speak to people in the design um studio, I'd be a lot blunter, a lot more like I'd be in the rugby world from the training pitch. And actually, when I stepped away from rugby, I actually suddenly didn't have that those two, that like seesaw. And actually, what I found was like this lovely, beautiful like medium where I could just like celebrate both and not have it hide behind this like security blanket of like um by dialing it up, I would find that there was a safety in that because people couldn't like take the piss or whatever out of you because of that, because you're like you're owning it, but actually, like yeah, sitting in the middle of this seesaw is actually where I'd feel a lot more comfortable. And I'm like, I love having those DMC creative chats for people, but equally I like to go and you know put a bit of brute force into stuff occasionally too. And I think I'm just like happy in the in the middle now. So that's sort of what what I've seen, I'm sort of jumping straight into it now, but it's especially like we've obviously met through a through a coaching group, and a lot of the people in there are ex-pro athletes, um, some still pro-athletes, and what my preconceived ideas of them would be they'd be very like meathead process, like same with the special forces, like that kind of like you know, do the basics right, do this, and X, Y, and Z. And what I've found is actually that space that we're a part of has really sort of opened up that there's a lot of people that think the same way, and maybe I'm not as quote unquote unique in that in that field, but maybe people just kind of need a bit more coaxing to get out of it. Like, I've had some amazing, beautiful, creative conversations with people who I never thought would be that way, like mindset-wise. Um so yeah, like I think that myth, so to speak, of like I'm not creative or you know, I'm not a creative person. I just don't really buy it. I think we all are, we just it's a muscle that people have let that atrophy over time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's it's a good point, and I'll I'll jump in there and say then two things. First of all, what is your definition of creativity? And then I won't say the second one because I've forgotten, so I'll let you talk about what you think creativity is, and hopefully the other one comes to me.
SPEAKER_01:So to define creativity to me, it's just like a unique way of problem solving. Like I don't think I think people mix creativity and artistry up.
SPEAKER_00:Like it.
SPEAKER_01:And I think artistry is the door through creativity. Like you've got to walk through creativity to get to artistry, but you don't need to be. I think people think, oh, I'm not creative, equals I can't draw or I don't like you know, sit at home arts and crafting. Like creativity to me is like there's a traffic jam and you found a different route home. Or um, I mean, let's take let's take COVID, for example, right? Like all those years ago, like how many people started cutting their own hair? How many people um had a Zoom call for the first time? How many people decided to make sourdough? And how many people had like family um quizzes? Like, all of that is creative problem solving. The problem is we're stuck in our houses, what can we do? That's the solution. So I always go back and say, like, we're we're all born creative, like kids. You don't see any kids um at school like in the corner, like crushing out an Excel spreadsheet. Like everyone's every they're all playing and like and they're creatively thinking, they're looking at stuff in a different way. And then I just I believe over time we are maybe like I don't know, a a child is good with numbers or something like that, and and and just through the way that the world works, they go, Oh, you're this person, you're good at maths, like and then maybe because they're not good at good in in in um quotation marks there, like maybe by like the traditional standards of what like drawing should look like or could look like, but oh you're more of an artistic, um, you're more of a mathematical person, and then that person, that kid starts believing like I am not creative, and then they just like park that. But actually, like I think there's so much room for play in creativity, people just aren't aware of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and like and I guess from hearing you speak there and and connecting the dots, it's it it that has a trickle-down effect because there's an assumption that like you've mentioned there, which is kind of what I was trying to get at, um, that it's not always artist the artistic ability, yeah, it's problem solving, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so you need problem solving. That's what I sort of look at it as. Um, and I think there's a lot of like fun to be had with that. You know, there's uh you've got a challenge ahead of you, and say there's the usual route to get to wherever it is. But actually, what happens if I think we're all just we've got this idea that like you have to go down these like normal channels, but actually what if what if you did it something something completely different? And then that starts to become a bit more fun. Um, and certainly in the one-to-one like creative coaching calls I do, like open people up to that idea. Bait, some of the stuff that comes out isn't is just so sick. Like, I love it. Um people who just they're in their sort of corporate suit and ties and thinking that they're not creative, and they have to like bring in this creative person to give them the answers when actually they've got the answers, like it's all in there. It's just they need to they just need a bit of steering to to unlock it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So how do you then uh start to steer or unlock people if they they're coming with the assumption that I'm not creative maybe because they can't bang out a Picasso in an afternoon?
SPEAKER_01:Um well, there's a few things like if it's if it's brand related and it's around like a company needing to go through like a brand, rebrand, or or or you know, want to move in a different direction, through my um brand strategy sessions, I kind of I take a more of a coaching approach rather than a consultancy approach and I ask them the questions because what what I found is when people say you got a founder or someone's got a startup, like a brand comes from uh like a good brand is it's not a logo, right? It's the feeling you have when you interact with that. And I find that a lot of the founders or people just starting these brands, like they can feel it. Like they they have the the thing inside of them and they just can't get it out because they just don't know the the relevant channels. So it's just asking the right questions and putting it back to them rather than trying to tell them what their brand is. And like, yeah, I give my interpretation and some ideas and stuff, but I just use I guess I just use coaching as a tool to kind of like pull it out. Um so that's one way, and then also there's I talk about um NEA and PEA states, negative emotional attractor and positive emotional attractor states. Um and it's interesting, like a lot of the time, even in the design world, like in the the amount of design studios that I've sort of freelanced that or we come in and they you go, right, we've got this client and they need this job done, and we need to get it by this time frame. And suddenly like everyone's like super, super stressed. And that that is an NEA state, like NEA state is about action, it's sort of um anxiety or like time frame led, and it feels very restrictive. And like I actually believe that the NEA state can be good, like there's there's benefits to it, like it's that get off the sofa and actually go and do something. But if you want to actually unlock creativity or be in that creative state, then I I get clients to um go through one of five five pieces, which is like if you enter either like mindfulness, compassion, play, aspiration, or just be in nature, that naturally shifts your mindset into that PEA state, and that's when you can start thinking about things a bit more conceptually. That's when like the shower thought comes in, or you're taking the dog for a walk and something comes up, or you know, you're having a conversation with someone you admire, or just like you know, that you and you feed that energy, like you come away and you feel like you've gotten like energy from someone. Um yeah, those are the sort of things that I like to play with.
SPEAKER_00:What were those five again, Tom? Mindfulness, compassion, nature, play. And there's one I'm missing an aspiration. Aspiration.
SPEAKER_01:So um for me, that can be aspiration could be anything like having a good conversation with someone. So, you know, when we have our conversations, mate, that's that you know, gives me the juice. I call it the juice. That's like the creative thing that gets you going, right? Like that gives me the juice. Go in and just like um I used to I go to a lot of music. Well, I used to when I used to live live in Bristol, not so much now in that in deep dark Cornwall, but used to go to a lot of like gigs and and that just gave me a lot of a lot of like yeah, um, that like charge to think about things differently. Um even just like watching a good film or something, like, or listening to good music, like like just in your own home, like all of that stuff, it can just it just elicits that that side of your brain. Um and what I think is interesting as well is like in the world of social media, like we're all when we've got our time off, all of us are sitting there scrolling, and that is just all that is doing just pulling you into that NEA state. So, like if you're sitting there trying to come up with a new creative idea and you're sitting there doom scrolling looking for inspiration, like you're not gonna get it because you're just you you're you're you physically cannot think creatively if you're in an NEA state.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, it's just something that's fascinating. There's loads of things that come up for me. Hopefully, I'll remember onto this, remind that thought. But so would there be a difference then in in terms of how you'd approach that with uh an individual? And let's imagine typically uh some listeners, small business owners or leaders wanting to bring new ideas or or or even just uh a new coach trying to write their first write their first post or post a first video on on social media as an example. Um so yeah, is there a difference there then between individuals and and organizations and how you create that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think ultimately if you're in the organization, you're just speaking to um multiple people, but they are are all individuals. So I would probably look at it in a similar sort of way. So one one exercise I get people to do is, and this is quite fun. Like you get a blank sheet of paper, and I go, first of all, I go, right, go find something circular. And so that already gets them thinking, like, oh right, let's go. You know, where can I creatively find something that's like a circle? And then come back as like a coffee mug or you know, coaster or you know, whatever, lid to a candle jar, I don't know. And you um I give them to draw a circle on a blank piece of paper, and then I just give them X amount of time to just doodle off of the circle. I'm like, circle's your starting point, just like draw. It like doesn't need to be a work of art, it can just be whatever, just like riff and and do something on it. And that sort of doodling nature, everyone sort of settles down a bit, everyone can kind of just do a little thing, and suddenly like their heads starts going in a it just it just starts getting you into that more like relaxed PEA state.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love it. And what it's funny is you mentioned those the those five ways that you help people drop into that. It screams at me to me personally, mountain biking. Um, and I I wonder if that's those sort of qualities you find in surfing as well, or most of them, yeah, as in mindfulness, compassion, maybe not so much so, but or maybe for yourself when you pile in, but you you're in nature, you're playing, and there's probably some decent surface around, and yeah, mindfulness by the fact that you can't be thinking about work when you're when you're paddling, or it makes a challenge. Yeah, um, that yeah, yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I don't I think um I've never really thought about the like what out of those five actually come into certain, but you're right, like I could list there's mindfulness in it for sure, like the conditions are good, or maybe you know, a bit a bit hairy, you gotta be on, you've got to be like you're not thinking about anything else, right? Um play, obviously, it's just like we're a bunch of adults trying to stand up from moving water. Like, I just don't think it's that serious, it's fun, right? Like, it doesn't need to be anything more. Um, and then yeah, nature obviously and aspiration. If you're there with people who are better than you, like great, you know, that's cool. So yeah, I think um, yeah, I can totally see that being well like for me anyway. I just I I just like being out in the water regardless, but it definitely 100% like fills my cup up and gives me the juice, then go off. Yeah, I think it's just as important as like having a meeting or reading a book or whatever. It's like making sure you fill that part of you up. Um yeah. I was having a conversation with a friend about this the other day, actually, about like they felt guilty about going off and you know, say they've got work on, but they want to go bouldering with their with their brother, or I think I was with his brother. And interestingly, um my friend's a he he's a coach too, a lot of coaches around. Um but maybe we this sort of lends itself more into this like brand ethos that I've got right now, but the the idea of like if he's if he if he's building his person I I use personal brand with quotation marks because to be honest, like that that phrase gives me the ick a bit, it kind of like conjures out sort of like Instagram influences. But like if you are your brand and you are living that and you and part of like the values that you have are to go off and like go bouldering, you know, that is topping up your mindset about you know whatever you're doing in the most authentic way, just as much as it is sitting down and having to read the book that you've been putting off, you know. It's there's a balance between procrastination and and and doing something that like charges you up, but um, I think it's just as important, mate. Like it's it's you've got to make that time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's a really interesting one. And and when we're fortunate in in terms of where you live, close to the ocean, ocean and and and me and the climate I live in and the access that I have to the hills when they're not closed for um, yeah. At the moment, there's an outbreak, a disease amongst the wild boar. So they're all the I've not been out to the the hills for a while, and plus a shoulder injury, but yeah, I definitely noticed that I come back very differently. And I know we've had talks, we've had conversations uh an hour after you've got out of the water as well. And yeah, just the energy is different. I recognise that we're fortunate, but I don't think it always has to be all of those five things. It's it's being uh from what I'm hearing, it's being able to drop into one to see what comes up. And then would I be right in before we step into that that that that task or that yeah?
SPEAKER_01:I I just the the other thing to mention as well is like having an expectation on if I go into nature for Example, I will have this credit, like that in itself pulls you back into an NEA state because it's all about like action and restriction. So it's it takes a bit of time, and like I do this, I do this with um with clients as well. And I just sort of say to them, like, you've got to be open with the idea that nothing comes from this, and just like be at peace with that and just know that worst case scenario, we're having we're just gonna we're gonna have a fun, sort of different um alternative way of looking at something. And something always comes up, but it's like I don't ever see it, I don't feel the pressure of nothing coming up. But it's when people go in and go, We are going to, you know, I am gonna go and do 20 minutes of headspace, and then it will equal creative, you know, enlightenment. It's just not gonna work like that. So it's just about it's about playing both sides of the brain, really, and just and and utilising those those chapters, um that but yeah, just that that to me is just like the the start point, right? And then once you've got the little idea, then you can start to run with it and have a bit more fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a little bit. Um when when you personally, Tom, or any of your the clients that you're working with are are struggling to come up with ideas, what what what do you go to? Where where's your yeah, what's your sort of re reset button in terms of what's interesting, like I for me usually if I'm being employed, it's because they are maybe struggling with ideas in the first place.
SPEAKER_01:So um I I feel what what I hope or you know what I what I put out there is I I always want to create an environment which is just energetic and fun. And it doesn't matter if we're having a coffee or sitting in a boardroom, but like sick, we're gonna we'll tell them we're gonna have this sort of conversation, and that in itself starts to bring um like more creative thinking. And I just get people to think big as well. Like I don't I don't necessarily care about answering the problem initially. It's maybe thinking like the the pro the the creative issue that they might be having is actually tied to something like way bigger. So for example, let's say for like a rebrand, like people go, Oh, we're we're not making enough sales, we want to look better, that will equal more sales. And actually, and they go, Oh, we need a new logo for that. Okay, let's just like let's just look at like the bigger thing. And for me, like I said before, like a brand, if we're looking from that lens right now, a brand is like something that you like have a like feeling towards, like that you're like a good brand. Like if you think about like Nike, you know, think about if you have a body, you're an athlete, just do it. You think about the sort of more renegade kind of athletes that they champion, there's like a sort of a bit more of a there's a bit more grit to them, what they certainly certainly used to be. Um you when I say Nike, you feel a certain way. When I say um like Puma or like feeler, kappa, you know, you feel a different way. Um and so to go back to that creative problem, it's like, right, how do you want someone to feel? And you get into the more emotive pieces, and then you're like, right, what is the game that you're playing, the infinite game that you're playing? And I know we've we've spoken about this, right? It's like what's what keeps you going every day? And then you work back from that. I I talk about like working back from crazy. It's like, what's this like mental thing that that you see if everything goes right? What does that look like? And then you can start to pull that back. And once someone has got like that exciting big thing over there, they don't care less about it's not so much about making the sale, it's about building everything else, and then the sales start coming naturally. That's like a a quick example, but yeah, it's more about the bigger picture, really.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love it. And and I I I I'm curious then, so is is there a an intention from your side as well as an understanding between you and and and the person that you're working with in terms of yeah, I'd I'd I'd say making that environment fun, thinking big and and releasing outcomes. Is it is that a preset in your mind as as or or theirs? Do you communicate that?
SPEAKER_01:I think um well, I'd I like to think that by bringing the energy that I bring, it brings them up to that too. Um I wouldn't I don't necessarily I don't go into a meeting thinking I bring this energy in order for them to bring this like energy. I'm like, right, I'm gonna show up as like my authentic self, the way that I feel. And if you want to talk about like my personal brand, like the game that I'm playing, um I show up into the room with that. And if it lands, great. I mean, usually by the time we've gone into a room, they've like bought into what I'm about anyway. So, but if on like say a discovery call, for example, like I'll bring that, and if it's um met with the same like level of energy, you're like, yeah, cool, we've got something here. Like there's but you know, we can create we can create some magic in a in a room.
SPEAKER_00:Sounds true, yeah, yeah, it does, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I'm I'm hearing it's not necessarily something that you yeah, lay out on the table, but by the time you're there, they they they get that gist anyway. It's it's who you are, nothing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because I yeah, I mean like I I I bring my personal brand to the table, and they have an emotional reaction to it and a and a buy-in, and then from that the the buy-in comes naturally when you're in the in the room or creating the space, you know. What I love is when you've got uh client being like, mate, I've been looking forward to this all week, da da da like that to me is a signal that they are you know it's less about me, it's more about them being in their creative headspace to to go. Like that to me is a pro a great signal that we're gonna have a great a great session.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what's um it's it's something we talked about quickly then. Uh and apart from people believing that they're not creative because they assume it's links to artistic ability, is there any sort of other myths or or things you love to shoot down?
SPEAKER_01:Um it's not necessarily a myth. I think we sort of I mean we've sort of kind of been speaking about it already, but I I believe that everyone what what I have let me re-reframe re-rephrase this. I think throughout my 15 years of like being in the brand world, I have found a really interesting crossover of the structure of building a brand can also be used for an individual, whether or not they've got a business or or not. Like I think when you like the core big things are like your mission, your vision and your values, right? And that's for building the brands. But I think it's just as powerful for you know, whoever working, uh, I don't know, like a teacher, for example, someone who's like like loves teaching. But if you ask them, you know, if they're not feeling fulfilled or something like that, or like there's there's something not quite right, you can use this brand structure to to help them understand, like maybe where they've gotten quote unquote off brand with themselves. So, you know, you could ask the vision, like what big game are you playing? Like, where do you want to go? You know, what what will get you up in the morning every day? And then the mission to me is the vehicle to take you to that vision. So how are you doing that right now? Okay, you're doing that through, let's just use the teacher, for example. Doing that through teaching, and then outside of outside of the school, we could be X, Y, and Z. And maybe they'll realize that actually they're not in the right vehicle taking them to where they want to go to. And then we go down even further into the core values. Um, and for let's let's take it into the brand world for a sec. Like your core values are um representative of how you want to show up against your competitors. But I believe that your core values is something that you should really look at as an individual, as a person as well, you know, and then you can see where you're out of alignment because you know, you you write them down, you get them in the right place. Oh, suddenly I'm not I'm not moving with integrity, I'm not moving with commitment, or whatever it is that your core values are. You can see that and and move it. So I think needs to come up with a new word or phrase other than like personal brand. Maybe it's like internal brand or like internal identity, something like that. But I don't know, I'm I'm really having fun playing with this crossover because yeah, it doesn't necessarily just all need to be about logos and colour palettes and font choices, you know. It's the the the the the mechanics of it work just as well one-on-one, person to person, doesn't necessarily need to be a business, business related. So that's something I'm really having fun with at the moment.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. Changing tact slightly, then, mate. I'm I'm curious if I speak to my own, something that I've found for myself. When I was producing content in terms of writing specifically on LinkedIn, a lot of that came from personal insights, personal reflections, insights that came up through coaching other people, um etc. etc. Um and what I was encouraged to do, and there's no judgment of this uh around this, was to try and block off certain times for content. So I used to try and have Monday mornings for content, yet for me personally, I found that really pressured and just like Sex Panther, 60% of the time it didn't work any of the time. Um, because I felt that real constriction. However, if I didn't sit down at my desk for though that that that time block and try and write something, then it would it so easily drops off the priority list for me. Um yeah, so I'm yeah, my guess my question is around like content blocks for people that are trying to produce um in this case written content as an example on on LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, your thoughts around content blocks and I I love content blocks and I I I um I do it myself, especially if I've got like a stack day time blocking everything out. Um as I said before, like it's not necessarily the best place to elicit like the creative ideas of like what you want to let's just like you, yeah, the LinkedIn post. I would say you're not necessarily gonna get the best LinkedIn post by being like, right, I'm gonna sit down, I've got to come up with this idea right now. But what you could do is potentially create a time frame for you to just let go and be creative and switch on that PEA state of your brain. So maybe in that, say it's a two-hour block, the first hour you could go off and go for a walk or go for a bike ride or listen to music and just again, like I said, like surrender to the idea that nothing's gonna come in and just go, or just like you know, doodle, do do that exercise I was talking about, and just like be okay in that space, and then guarantee you some level of like inspiration might will hit you. So might will like it's it it's likely that something comes up for me. I I find like going for a drive, like driving for me is like the best because I'm I'm focused enough on driving, but my brain is wandering as well. That's like a nice little like medium. Um and then suddenly something will come up, and you're like, okay, cool, I'll write that down. And then you can take those ideas, those concepts, and then put that into the block of okay, how can I take these creative ideas I've got and formulate them into a LinkedIn piece? I think that's a way better way of doing it rather than sitting down and be like, I have to create this now. It just to me doesn't really feel it, it kind of I think there's fun in it. Like you can have fun with it. Like if you create if you created, say you had an hour block to write a LinkedIn post, be like, okay, make it a game. That's a better way of doing it. So be like, right, um start with like a conceptual, like bigger idea. So I don't know, say there's something that you want to write about around um leadership, right? Put leadership as like the the word in the middle, ideas that come off of that that you think of with leadership, and then like, yeah, okay, start having fun with that, playing games, like getting a bit silly with it. Then suddenly, like, you can start to formulate something in a much more fun, creative, PEA-focused way, rather than yeah, just sitting staring at the keyboard and just be like, right, I've got to churn this out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and what I'm hearing as you speak there for myself is I've always made the assumption I have to complete it, but I think what would be really interesting is to start the idea, yeah, if there is two hours, to do something to drop into the PA state, to get down the concepts, the big ideas. Um, yeah, and see what comes up, and then come back to it another time or the next week or whenever it might be, you know. So, yeah, taking a bit of pressure off and expectation off as well.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I have a I have a little note section in my phone, and if ideas come in, I just I I put them down or I hear a nice quote from something or whatever, I'll I'll I'll list it and then um shelve it. Because I I don't know about you, mate, but like I hit get hit with these ideas, I'm like, I'm gonna do this. This is and I I I'm very aware of like maybe it's coming across in this in this podcast, like an idea over here and then an idea over here, and you're sort of like flying all over the place. But actually, if you just put those ideas into a bucket and let them rest for a bit and come back, you'll see which ones have a lot more weight to them. You're like, oh, actually, yeah, that that feels a lot more that that's got some weight to it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Rather than just like shooting all over the place.
SPEAKER_00:So so how can we make this process slightly more fun? Bearing in mind we're stiff up a lip in a suit.
SPEAKER_01:Uh well, first of all, take the tie off. Come for it. There's loads of things. Like someone that I really look up to and someone who's influenced me a lot is is a man called Kevin Carroll. And he he was I mean, his backstory is amazing. If you know people listening, I highly recommend going and checking him out. He's got a load of TED Talks on um on YouTube. Um, but he essentially his his just outlook on life and just his his his attitude and and his personality was so infectious that he along the way met someone at Nike just organically, and they just said, I don't know what your role is at Nike. I just know that we need you in there. And they pulled Kevin in and he actually became what was known as like the creative catalyst, and he um famously got uh like the board members of Nike, um, the you know, the the top dogs in whatever respective um part of the company, they were trying to solve a problem in this boardroom and like it wasn't coming in. He ended up saying, right, we're going outside and we're gonna play a game of tag. And he just made everyone play play a game of tag, and they had to take the blazers off and you know, loosen up the ties and go and just have some fun. And then everyone came back into the boardroom, and they're like a lot more loose and they're fun and they're joking and they're playing like and then suddenly all these ideas come. And he ended up, it ended up becoming like a it was even like a weekly or a monthly thing, and he ended up at one point getting the entire um organization, the entire Nike HG outside playing tag. Um, so he's a he's an amazing guy, and his attitude's infection. So like I would say do something like that. It's like going against the norms. Like, I think we've got this idea that you've got to be so stiff, you know. If you're open, ideally, if you're speaking to me, like you're already open to the idea of thinking a bit differently and like looking at things a bit creatively. So I would rather do something that's a bit scary for someone and then come back and be like, actually, that was pretty fun. Yeah, so something like that, man.
SPEAKER_00:Just love it, love it. Yeah, I think that for me, one of my go-tos has been just to change the environment, but that would be a lovely thing to play with, is making it really, really fun. And my brain's I'm gonna have to just gently bring it back. And luckily, I make notes and record these conversations as well to listen back to it. But yeah, that's that's uh that might be a lovely way to do it, making it fun to see what comes up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like I mean I mean, this is a classic coaching question. Uh I know that it's come up in our in our calls a lot, like people got this problem and they're looking at it as like this issue, this like big thing that's that's uh gotta fix or we've got to solve or whatever. And then if you just look at it from a different perspective and just tell yourself, like, okay, what if this was fun? That's been like game changing for me. You know, what and then suddenly you start looking at things a bit differently, or what if this was creative? What if this was easy? You know, all of these words you can it's very interesting seeing how people interpret that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I'll I'll share you this with you, mate, because it's an insight that I've not shared yet. But from uh conversation with uh a guy a few days ago. What are we talking about? Business, that's right, new business, and um and from yesterday's call um or the other day before, yeah, what came to me was the idea to send uh emails to the people that I've worked with or want to work with, and it's almost going uh off to their future to give them permission on their behalf, and I yeah, like that that sounds like really fun, really challenging for me. Um with certain people that I know, it'll be a bit easier. Um yeah, but that that feels quite big. That that would take a lot of creativity, it'll definitely take a lot of uh stepping into the PA space for to be able to put those those feelings that I've got for them into words and bit of courage and and uh decisiveness to press the sun button. But yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But equally, like if I'm hearing like a lot of um sorry, there's someone at my door, mate.
SPEAKER_00:Go for it, answer it, mate.
SPEAKER_01:I should go classic. I should be a bit more big time, mate, and have a little blinking red light on the front door to say, do not knock, having a podcast with um what I was gonna say is equally like I'm hearing it's like big, these big things like that are gonna require da-da-da-da. You know, again, if you went back, but like, how could this be the most fun possible? Or like, what's the most outrageous um idea? Something as well as like, what's the worst idea? Like, what is the worst idea in how to do this? And people come up with some absolute stinkers, but from that it gives you a starting point. Yeah, okay, well, what's the opposite of that bad idea? And then you just kind of come up with some more more ways of just different ways of looking at things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, great look. Love it, love it. Tom, I'm I'm gonna I'll start to wrap this up slowly, but I'm curious if there's anything that we've not mentioned. Mentioned today that you'd like to talk about, or or yeah, I'll leave it at that.
SPEAKER_01:Um things coming up. Like I just I hope that it comes across. I I just love talking about this stuff, man. I love my my biggest win that I see is when you get someone smiling who is, you know, maybe super stressed out about an issue or whatever. Or when I have a conversation with someone and I can see them like relax after because they feel like they've gotten everything out and it's been like acknowledged and pulled into a into a place. Like I don't know, like I just love I love these conversations, mate. And I love the conversations that we have. Like, you know, it's um it's always fun. And I just just love collaborating with like-minded people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, awesome. No, um, yeah, likewise, mate. I've really enjoyed you. You've been really supportive of me. So I'm very grateful for your the space that you've held, the ideas that you've given me. Um, yeah, your encouragement and your courage as well, mate. So yeah, I appreciate you. I appreciate this conversation. So thanks very much for for being you, Tom.
SPEAKER_01:Appreciate it too, mate. It's been great. Love it.