S3 Ep96 Becks Cant: Renegotiating Identity

Bex shares her story from early life in London, shaped by a loving family and growing up fast while her mum lived with MS and her dad worked decades in policing. She reflects on a career filled with both extraordinary moments and real trauma, and the pull she’s always felt to “give back” by passing on what works beyond policing into everyday leadership, work, and relationships.

A core theme is self-awareness. Bex talks through the “iceberg” exercise she uses with negotiators: what people see on the surface versus what sits underneath values, beliefs, emotional drivers, past experiences. Her point is simple: you can’t lead well, help well, or negotiate well if you don’t understand what’s driving you first.

From there, she makes negotiation practical and human. Active listening is the foundation. Seek to understand someone’s perspective before trying to move them. Earn trust through tone, pace, and presence not just words. She also warns against “preset scripts,” and offers softer, more opening language like “Tell, Explain, Describe,” instead of sharper “what/why” questions that can land as accusatory.

The conversation closes on transition and resilience. Leaving the police wasn’t clean or easy especially alongside losing her mum because it brought grief, identity loss, and the sudden absence of structure and support. Resilience, for her now, is broader than “cracking on”: it’s building a healthy network, setting personal challenges, choosing work that fits, keeping things fun, and learning to say no without guilt as part of protecting what matters.

Reach out to Beks via LinkedIn or her website. 

Transcript

Meet Bex Kant And Her Mission

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to Forging Resilience, real conversations for high performers facing transition. Aaron Hill. Join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Forge and Resilience, I'm joined by Bex Cant. Bex is a former senior police negotiator and national training lead who spent over 30 years operating at the sharp end of crisis, conflict, and human emotion. Beyond operational work, her legacy sits in modernizing negotiation training across UK, integrating evidence-based psychological behaviour models to improve outcomes and save lives. Now through DARE, the company Bex translates those hardworn skills into leadership, organizational, and everyday human context, helping people navigate difficult conversations, transitions, and the quieter but often harder work of identity, meaning, and resilience. Bex, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1:05

Thank you very much. What a lovely warm welcome. Brilliant, Aaron. Thank you.

Speaker 1 1:09

I do a little bit of homework, and that says as far as it extends. But um, yeah, we had the pleasure of having a conversation before, and um, yeah, I've I've taken a few threads from that and and woven it in. But Bex, for those that are listening today, help us understand uh a little bit about you and and your story um and and all the experience that you've accumulated.

Never Give Up And Find Your Rock

Speaker 1:30

Oh, that's a great question to start with, isn't it? It's always you know, it's uh where do you start with that? Because it's you know, you want to start at the beginning, don't you? And it's and I suppose for me, um, yeah, I I sort of started off living in London um sort of early years, had a a fantastically um wonderful sort of background childhood. You know, I had a very loving family that I was very fortunate to have. Um and I grew up uh I think sort of fairly quickly because my mum had multiple sclerosis, so she was suffering quite, you know, poorly with with that um for many, many years. And my dad, he was a 30-year cop, bless him, you know, himself as a PC. And you know, I I sort of like drew from their strengths as as I grew, um, you know, from through childhood, you know, into you know, my own journey and and where I it's taken me through to now. So um yeah, I think um I've drawn a lot from from them going through my career in policing. As you mentioned, um I've I've I've done a lot, I've achieved a lot, and I've seen a lot, experienced um some most amazing things and some most you know traumatic things throughout my career. But you know, I've I've not had I'm very fortunate I haven't got any regrets. I've I've sort of ticked as many boxes as I can within policing. And you know, with that in mind, that has really sort of like stood me in good stead leaving policing after giving, you know, my my sort of like my working life um and trying to get that balance, as you know, is is very difficult, working life and family life with with policing, and moving on now to that transference of being able to bring what I've learned, what I've experienced, you know, over the years, um, and bringing that into the you know, into the the big bad world, so to speak. You know, it's not just for policing. So my my skill set now that I developed over the last 15 years in hostage and crisis negotiation and training the UK negotiations and international negotiators has has really developed. And that's you know, for me, that really has it's it's a it's a a lovely thing to be able to say that I can now actually bring that to you know to other people in the context that it's it's it's it uh it's it's something that you can actually you know utilise within the workplace, within business, within corporations. You know, it's it's it's tangible, it's it's there, it's to be given. It's not it's not a uh a magical secret or you know, it's not a hidden secret, you know. This this is all stuff that we use open source. So it's you know, we we can use it in transferable skills and be able to bring that to the table to people. So and I love that aspect of it, you know, I really do love that aspect.

Speaker 1 4:24

So I it's something that you you mentioned last time is quite important to you is to be able to give back and use your experience to do that. So I'm curious then if the internet cuts off in three minutes, what what would be the thing that you want to try to communicate today, then that in a snapshot of your experience that you would want people to know in terms of negotiational transition resilience?

Know Yourself: The Iceberg Exercise

Crisis Everywhere And Why Listening Wins

Teaching Listening We Forgot To Teach

Speaker 4:48

Never give up. I I suppose for me it's it's never give up and and and never never be beaten down by the the toxicity that can be around you at times. And I think you know, keep going as you know, as hard as times get, you know, reach out to people that you know. And you know, if you go through a given crisis yourself, then you know, through some of the the traumatic experiences I've had within policing or within my personal life, you know, for me, you know, reach out and seek, you know, seek support from other people. And I think for me that has really got me going, that's kept me going. And I think you know, my my husband has been a fantastic rock for me. Always always find your rock. You know, if you can, you've got to try and find your rock. Um, and he has been a a steady rock for me throughout my career and you know, married life, it's been you know, I've been very fortunate to have that. Um and I think I've that stability and that you know resilience has come from um you know my seeing you know my mum and dad, how they've got through some really troubling times, and and drawing from those and actually you know pausing yourself at times and actually reflecting on some of those moments that you've experienced and actually pause and think, do you know what? Actually, you know, it's I I I can go in this direction or I can change directions if I need to, if or you know, I can I can actually have a conversation about how I'm feeling. Because as soon as you open up and you start being honest with yourself and knowing yourself, then that really does translate into how you can move forwards. And I think that's some of the that's some of the science-based stuff that we actually teach train negotiators on the courses. You know, they they arrive on day one, you know, completely thinking, oh, you know, they're the most, uh, you know, they're all great communicators, don't get me wrong, we're all great communicators, we can all have a conversation because that's what we've learned. But you know what? It's they they turn up on the course and it's it's you know, it's a real start realization because we do an exercise which is probably one of the most um grounded exercises that we that we do to start with, and it's called exercise know yourself. And we it's you know, all training courses, you've got to have an iceberg, haven't you? The iceberg theory and the training course. And the iceberg theory always comes out really, really well because you can actually get to know what is actually underneath you as a person, and you know, everyone else can see, you know, Bex Camp, she's you know, she's uh she's you know retired from the police. She this is the obvious or the other turf top, the surface. But what is ticking underneath, you know, what do we know about that? We you know, very you know, people know about the fact that you know, um, I've you know, I've I've got a family and I've got dogs and so forth, but in actual fact, what is the emotionality and what is going on behind me and what are my values and beliefs? You know, people don't really know that unless they're close to me. And I think negotiators we always get them to do that exercise, know yourself. So we get them to draw their iceberg and we get them to actually look at what they show on the surface, but actually what is making them tick underneath. And for me, it's a powerful exercise because you cannot help other people or lead other groups or be a leader or actually go out there without knowing yourself first, and it is a and and and until you can do that, I think that's that is a real turning point. And you can see it's like light bulb moments when you know negotiators do that on that day one, and it's like, oh wow, I didn't realise that about myself. We've had some very emotional um, you know, sessions, you know, negotiators have realized that you know the impact on something is why they behave on the top, are they a little bit more argumentative when it comes to you know um situations, and that's because of something that's happened that we didn't realise until it's all underneath the iceberg, it's there and we start unpeeling what's going on, and it's like fascinating. So that's you know, some of the methodology we use, and that does translate to when we're going out and and obviously negotiating, you know, people in crisis, you know, which is it's primarily you know 70% of what you know police are in negotiators, that's what that's what we do. Um but um and I think when we look at how things are now in the world, you know, without going into politics and going into too much detail there, I think we live we just live in this world, don't we, with in crisis, you know, there every every door you open, every time you turn on the tell, every time you you scroll on your your mobile, there's a crisis happening, whether it, you know, be it be you know in your surrounding ripple effect or either be personal to you, there is something happening. And it's always it's always between human beings. It's got to be. And the human the human being aspect is you know, how do we how do we improve on that as individuals to make that better within groups, organizations, and how does that converse? And I think you know, it always comes back to that that first point of of call is the active listening. And it and it will always do for for you know for me and for you know, in negotiation, you know, it's it's it's key to it, it really is to help, you know, save lives. And it's transferable into and that's what I'm finding now, going into corporations and businesses and actually flipping that. You know, if I'm for example, you know, able to go and negotiate with someone um that is standing on the ledge, you know, ready to take their own lives, and and you know, the the numerous times I've experienced that and and and you know engaged with someone, built a rapport and being able to actually support them to bring them back to safety. That moment in their darkest hour that you know I've been able to do that for me, it's um it's transferable when if I can do that to someone, I can't just walk away from that, you know, if if the deal's not going great, if they're not engaging, if they're not helping, we're in actual fact, you know, in the corporate world, if you're trying to if you're trying to, you know, fine-tune a deal and actually get to a point or actually move some business on, then in actual fact, you know, you don't give up because there are ways and techniques that you can use to be able to do that. So yeah, no, it's it's it's it's a huge world, Aaron. I think that's for me, it's it's a it's a huge world, as you can you can tell. It's like knowing the basics first for me and teaching the basics because you when you come into a a a session or a training session, whether it be from my policing background or or now, one of the real eye-openers is uh that people can't uh actively listen as effectively as what they should be able to do. They miss things, and to build rapport and to build trust and to be to gain that relationship is you need to be able to do that, you know, to emotionally, empathetically, you know, tune in uh to someone. And it's uh it's a learnt skill. It is a learnt skill. Um one of the things I always I often uh I often say, and it's it's it it's quite sad actually in in you know in our in our sort of like you know we we don't ever teach our children to actually actively listen. We teach them in schools, we we send them to school and do show and tell. You know, we get them to stand up there and build their confidence with, you know, bring this, you know, this picture I painted at the weekend in, you know, and and and show and tell about that, you know. So you're building their confidence and their, you know, their enthusiasm to be able to do that and and give them lots of stress in the moment to do that. And it is, everyone's you know, getting stressful, and then the parents are getting stressed, dad getting stressed, and it's like that they're talking to their friends in their little group, oh you know, it's my turn, it's my turn. And it's really like, oh my and then, but what we don't do is the rest of the class, we're not sitting there going, you know, so how are we actively listening? No, what what did Beck say when she brought that painting in today? You know, we're not doing that, and that's the key to communication, you know, it's uh something we're really missing. We we're really missing with our with our you know youngsters as as we're you know developing our youngsters growing up, you know, as parents and as you know, as as teachers and trainers. And I can I can I can talk with authority on that because I've had some fascinating conversations with um uh uh a good friend um in education services, and you know, she's she's in agreement. So, you know, I think um it's it's definitely something that um we need to improve on. And if I can bring that to the table and help others in that way, then you know that's that's what I would love one enjoying doing that.

Speaker 1 13:35

So yeah, there's you've given us quite a lot there, Bex. So thanks for that. Um I'm gonna practice my active lesson skills by taking you right back to the bit to the beginning, and in terms of your iceberg moment, even if it might not be in the same uh practice or or session, I'm curious what you learn about yourself when you start to look inwards um rather than outwards, because that's what I heard when when a lot of new negotiators come, it's all outward face until they pause and get shown actually and starts within. So I mean I'm curious what you learn about yourself.

Punctuality, Beliefs And Self-Awareness

Speaker 14:07

So I I actually early on in my career said we didn't do the iceberg when I first did my training sort of 15 years ago. We didn't do anything like this. You know, we just went out there and we, you know, we we had some basic some fantastic, you know, mentoring and training, don't get me wrong. And you know, and I I I I give huge credit to that. But it's something that's been developed over the years, and for me, it wasn't it wasn't an early days piece of you know, um sort of development. And I wish I'd had that. But when I when I did actually do my own iceberg, and it was with funny enough, one of my business partners through the Dare Group, um, you know, Katie Martin, we we you know, we did that within a session, and and and it was a real i don't know. My i don't know was it was probably more, I look back on that now, my my reflection on it is quite, it's more um uh funny because I actually understand why on the top of my iceberg, one of the things I'm very, you know, I'm I'm time driven, you know, I'm uh not time driven, but I'm very, you know, if I'm gonna be late for something, it's really, you know, it it I I get you know really anxious, you know, and it's something, it's a very common problem in people. But it wasn't until I started to um uh uh develop my um you know my my iceberg underneath in respect of it this all came into you know being fairly structured within you know my upbringing with regards to times and so forth, you know, you know, when mum, when we were caring for mum, you know, she needed, you know, medication on certain times. She, you know, my my dad always had to be out at a certain time for his shift work, so you know, dinners were getting prepared, and we were very structured like that because that's how our life ran. And actually, I started to actually align the two and realise that actually that's why I'm like that with my kids. So if we've got to be somewhere, I'm really, you know, I'm I'm quite hot on it. And actually, it really resonates with me now. So if I if if if we're if we're running late for something, it's like, come on, kids, and they just oh mum's, you know, she's off again. And it's like, you know, no, it's it's it's it's gotta be done. It's like, you know, it's something that for me I have to, but it's a really it it's not a a very deep perspective in respect of myospoke, because you know, in in in obviously going there from my personal perspective, but there are lots of other, you know, things around my own beliefs and and values that that really resonate that you is why you see the person here today becks can't and and who I am.

Speaker 1 16:30

So yeah, and I I think it's really interesting that about you being late and the punctuality, because you're right, for certain things it is is critical in terms of giving me giving medications that that that people are dependent on, but there's still uh uh I think what it alludes to is that our own belief systems and structures created around that, or more importantly, the hand-me-down belief structures around that, and whether it just question whether it serves us or not, and to get to look at that from a bit of difference or perspective, is it uh if yeah, for my own opinion, yeah, I like you, I don't like being late, but I've detached myself or I catch what I'm making it mean when I am. Nobody really cares. I I make myself out to be a bit of a knob if I'm late, but you do you know what I mean? It that that is just a construct in my own head, yeah. Um yeah, so it's I I think it's what it what it does do then for me is that exercise is puts things on the table and you get to decide what what what serves, what doesn't, what yeah, what you want to take.

Speaker 17:31

So and that and that and that's you know, as an example of that, as as we're on that that that area, you know, you if if I was uh you know a manager, you know, a senior leader in a company, and I had a an issue with one of my employees that you know, one of my staff were were constantly being late and so forth. Now you've now got to manage those feelings of inherent to you and what you display on the top. How do you manage that person? And then that's one of the things that you know we we are able to develop and guide on on the courses that we that we deliver is is how how you manage that and how that manifests, because that could manifest quite negatively in your approach to that person.

Speaker 1 18:13

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 18:15

Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 1 18:16

No, no, no, no.

Speaker 18:17

So so so it could manifest quite quite negatively, but in actual fact, you know, what we want to do is we want to to be able to get that alignment and be able to understand that person, you've you've got to walk in their shoes. It's one of the phrases we use, you know, what have one of your feet in one of their shoes and walk that journey with them. What does that look like right now? You know, why are they behaving in the way they are? Why are they doing, why are they saying, why are they responding, why they're reacting? What's going on underneath in their iceberg? What's behind the scenes? What's happened in the past? What do we know? I'm not saying that, you know, leaders and managers go out and start, you know, completely peeling the layers of the air iron onion back. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, you know, just have some empathetic understanding to that.

Managing Others Without Your Bias

Speaker 1 19:04

Yeah. Yeah, I could go down a rabbit hole here, but I think I I'm curious, Bex, after being in an organization for so long, 30 years, a fair old time, um, how that transition period has been from you walking away from such a structured, yeah, such a potentially a tight identity for some um to to job and and work and and even if just over by default and time. Um, so how how's transition been for you and have you how have you managed that from?

Leaving Policing And Losing Identity

Speaker 19:38

So, yeah, I mean it hasn't if if I'm honest, and you know, as as as my training always gives me, honesty is the best policy, you know, never lie. So, you know, I'll be honest with you, it's not been easy in the sense of the emotionality of it. You know, you give 30 odd years of your of your life and career, and you know, you you you come away with a lot of mum guilt because you potentially you haven't been able to give what you you know you not be missing sports days and stuff like that when you know there's a a crisis happening. So you have to, you know, sort of step that's that way beforehand. So for me, you know, there's a there's there's some sort of regrets, but but I'm actually now transitioning those regrets into actually my my both my beautiful children, bless them, they're they're amazing young adults now, and they're coming back to me and saying but you know, conversations, open conversations, which is healthy, you know, for for my transition for into into into the world in that respect, and and for them to understand the journey, what we've gone through as a family. And I think being open and honest when then's been has been is been the best thing. And we've had some, you know, I I lost my mum literally as I was retiring. So what should have been a euphoric moment of of you know celebrating the 30 odd years of policing, you know, hit very hard because the emotion was, you know, on a on a grieving scale because I lost mum just before. So it was a it was a a real, you know, I I completely lost my identity. You hand your warrant card in, you know, as you leave the door, they're asking for your laptop, your phone that you has been part of your life 24-7, and you walk out that door, and you know, you just think, okay, so that's fine. I'm grieving. I'm now my both my kids have they're at university, they've left, and you know, so the house is quite quiet, you know. We've luckily we've got a couple of dogs to sort of like, you know, make a little bit of noise. Um, but how do you how do you you know move on from that? And I'm sort of 18 months, 19 months on that journey now. And for me, I've fully focused on thinking let me bring my skills, let me bring my experiences. To this world. I'm not going to leave that value behind. And, you know, being able to now go out and actually deliver some of this, this amazing, you know, techniques and some of these amazing things that actually, you know, work in this world and can develop people in their own careers and their own businesses and corporations really effectively. And there's some real light bulb moments with it. That's brilliant because I'm still giving back. I'm still, you know, I've but have a life of, you know, saving lives and, you know, as cliches that sound, you know, do it doing my bit for well, king country, you know, I've I've I've done that. But what now? And I think it's it's that gap, isn't it? So finding my identity, you know, I I used to sort of like be a little bit smug when I had heard people saying I'm, you know, trying to find my identity, but dear God, have I had to find my identity. You know, you lose your uniform, you lose, you know, that side of it, you know, that whole support network, you know. Um, you know, you don't have the the ability just to phone up, you know, occupational health to say, look, you know, I think I need a little bit of trim training. We've just had a crisis, you know, situation, trauma's still there afterwards, you know, it's still sometimes long term. So there is nothing there to help you with that in that respect. You have to go and seek and find that post um leaving policing, sadly. Um, but you know, I've I I make sure I've got a great network and I've I've built that network into very like-minded people, um, and and people that have have left policing as well. So, you know, they're healthy conversations, you know, and I've you know make sure that I've got that opening to be able to um, you know, enjoy moving forward into this next phase in life. So yeah, it's not retirement. We don't say the R word, do we?

Speaker 1 23:50

I didn't think I did, did I?

Speaker 23:52

No, no, no, yes, it goes on to say that it's like one of those things that you know we uh don't don't ever say Bex is retired. So it's like no, no, no, no, no. Bex hasn't retired, no, no, no. We should she's uh moving on, it's next phase.

Speaker 1 24:06

What what what I heard in that um is almost like a renegotiation, a bit of empathy for yourself and acceptance and and and yeah, building those tools and skills uh around you, a bit of inward looking as well.

Speaker 24:19

Um no no massively, but and it goes back to knowing yourself.

Speaker 1 24:23

Yeah.

Speaker 24:24

And I think this is the thing, if you can do that, um, you know, so it it it and at different stages in in your life, in your career, in your family life, you know, you know, pause, reflect, and actually literally, I mean, draw your iceberg, literally draw an iceberg, you know. If you journal or do something like that, you know, put put an iceberg in there. And it's actually quite cathartic to be able to do that. And it's actually you're reflecting, ah, okay, you can get some really resounding results from it, personally. So, yes, I do, I do use it, you know, on a regular basis, I suppose.

Speaker 1 24:59

Changing subjects slightly towards negotiation then and some of the things you teach, uh, some of the experiences you've you've had, what what couple of tangible things might you be able to share with with listeners that they might be able to apply to their own lives or or business situations in terms of, yeah, if we if we imagine some sort of deal or minor disagreement, help us understand how we might be able to approach that in a in a more effective way.

Rebuilding Through Honesty And Service

Speaker 25:28

So again, you know, you've got to seek to understand that person. You know, you've got to, whoever you're dealing with or whatever you're over managing, you've got to seek to understand what the issue really is underneath. Go back to the iceberg. You've got to be right with your so that's about perspectives, making sure you understand someone's perspective. You've got to be um you've got to be right with your your timing around growing that rapport with them. You know, you've got to earn the right to be able to actually get them to trust you first, and that's through actively listening. You've got to make sure your delivery is it's not what you say, it's how you say it. So when you talk about your pitch-tone pace, you know, your your tone is very important when you're talking to people, your pace is very much so as well. Um your non-verbal communication is vital in this when we when we look at the the you know the science behind that, you know, it's it goes back to it's it's not what you say. And sometimes, you know, it's how you're actually presenting yourself to that person as well, you know, when you when you're actually having that engagement and that conversation. And embedded in that uh, you know, some key principles around I mentioned earlier on around being honest, you know, don't ever forfoul, you know, even the lot white lies, you know, the little white lies that you know you probably grew up saying or doing, you know, when you're when you're when it's this you know, serious business, you know, you've you've got to be on the page. Be honest, you know, don't ever get caught out. Don't ever get caught out in a lie, because your rapport will diminish and you'll you'll never be trusted again by that person. So I think, and that that does resonate in business as well. Don't ever let anyone down, don't everyone lie in that respect. So it that is really key to to you know the the the techniques that you know people can go out and and utilize. And I think um I remember I I it's it's actually going into a conversation. I remember I remember a job uh early doors when when one of my first few negotiations that I was involved in, and it was it was a guy and he was barricaded in into it was a a domestic situation, so he's barricaded into his house and he'd got um a knife and he he wasn't coming out, it was a domestic uh incident, and you know, I I rocked up thinking, okay, I got this, you know, I've I've got this, I've had the I've had the training. And um, and um uh unfortunately one of the things um I said to you, I I sort of said, you know, hi, I'm Bex, you know, I'm here to help. And he the first thing he shouted out the window was uh, are you are you gonna um are you gonna call me an ambulance? Because he was suffering from some form of psychosis as well, and really, really poorly mental health issues. And and he said, you know, are you gonna call an ambulance for me? And there's me thinking, well, yeah, of course we're calling ambulance. Well, we've got one here actually. So I, you know, said, Yeah, we just one down here. We yeah, come on, come on out, we we get we get you to hospital. And of course, there's me presuming that I understood him and I knew what his perspective was, and he went absolutely ballistic, because that was a thing that he didn't want. He didn't want to go to hospital. I thought that's what I just presumed that I understood what he's so yeah, so it's seek to understand his per sect perspective. I think for me, it's you know, or their perspective, that's you know, get to the bottom of it, you know, give more time to it, don't rush the conversation because you know, you you've got to understand that before, you know, before you can actually make any grounds and and and and and develop that any further within um a given context, obviously. So um, and if it works in crisis, it's gonna work. Well, it does, it works in in every day. Um, you know.

Speaker 1 29:19

I'm I'm guessing I kind of already know the answer to this, but do you have a set block of questions to start working from, or is it literally feel that you go in with um or uh your favorite get out of jail free question that that that can open doors or conversations, better said?

Negotiation Fundamentals You Can Use

Speaker 29:39

No, I will never have a preset list of cues, absolutely never. That's just you know, it's one of those things that I I would never think about. Um every job that I went to, you'd obviously have a drive to that job. You'd have half an hour time to actually think about what I'm going into. Um, but I would never think about what I'm gonna say to that person per se. Because I don't know. I don't know. I've been given a set amount of information that the control room would have given us, but in actual fact, I don't know that person. And that gives me an opening. I'd rather not know if they've got any, if there was any intelligence or any information on that person, I would not want that to know that because that has tainted me with stuff that is is external to what's going on in that person underneath the iceberg. I don't know. I'm gonna find out and I will listen. And I'll use, you know, I won't use questions, open open questions, you know, like the what, where's when's. That's one, you know, steer away from them if you're trying to balance um, you know, more of a uh, you know, conflicting, you know, argument or conversation about something, steer away from them. If you've tried to find out something, use the TED, what we call the TED questions, you know, that they're beautiful to use. Tell, explain, describe. You know, tell tell me why you why are you like feeling like this, you know? Explain how we've got here today. Describe, describe to me what what's gone on. But if you start saying what, where, when, you know, what, why, accusatory straight away. So people don't like that, whether, you know, and that's not just forget that's policing world, that's within, you know, in the boardroom. You know, start developing this softened language, you know, when when it it it feels much better, as especially as as leaders, you know, uh of companies and supervisors in in in place, you know, get get the language right, you know, try try to avoid that um that real harshness, you know, be a little bit more empathetic. So, yeah, so I think no, predict predicted dialogue is different in respect of, you know, you know, and I funny enough, I was having this conversation with my daughter the other day and about this. And predicted dialogue is is different in the sense of if you're gonna be picking up the phone and you know that this person you're gonna be speaking to is a little bit awkward or a little bit combative, or uh, you know, you're gonna have a difficult conversation with them. There are generally only one or two ways that conversation can go. They can be really um, you know, animated, expressive around what they're gonna say to you, or they could go the other way and actually just be quite submissive. And knowing what the context of the conversation is, you can actually predict that dialogue. So if they say um this, then you could actually prepare your your, you know, what you want to say to them in in respect to that. If they say the other, then in actual fact, have that ready. So that's slightly different around predicted dialogue, but yeah, never I will always open the conversation and and listen. It's more difficult if someone's non-engaging, but again, that's a whole different toolkit that we would use utilise. Um, but you know what? If it's silence and effective silence, you know, that's that they've that's their right. You know, you give them that autonomy, you know, give that person the space that they need to have, but just to reassure them that you're there and you're listening is quite key. Um, especially when someone's upset, in crisis, or having a really difficult time. You know, you pick up the phone to someone, a friend that's you know, um going through some trauma, you know, just be there. Them just hearing, you know, your you being there, the your breath, your breathing, that's sometimes good enough. You know, less is more sometimes. So shut up now.

Speaker 1 33:40

I love it. And and and I suspected that, but I'm curious, yeah, I was curious. And uh and and yeah, so to follow on from that, then if we I know it's slightly different in your work, or I imagine it would be certain situations, people uh there's a lot more tension, a lot more um yeah, I can't think of the word. Consequences are probably certainly higher emotionally. Um how do you keep coming back with with with being attentive, with with empathy when that door gets getting closed in your face or or slammed, um irregardless of how how you're showing up and asking questions or or listening, being there for them.

Seek To Understand: A Field Lesson

No Scripts, Use TED Prompts

Speaker 34:21

Yeah, so every conversation is different, as as you know, and you you have to strip back to to being a decent human being and actually wanting to open that door to be able to get to help that person who could be in that that darkest moment, you know, completely. But it's that that will and want sometimes, you know, sometimes you know, you you could be you could be at home and you've just finished, you know, a long shift and you just walk through the door, dinner's just on the table, and you just sit down and then the phone goes because you're on call and you've got to roll out again. And my family laugh. They do, you know, they used to, the kids when they were growing up, they say, Oh, you know, the bat sign's gone up, you know, they used to love Batman. And the old bat sign, the light's gone up, mum's out, she's off, she's gone, and there I've gone for the night, and you know, three, four o'clock in the morning, you rock back in after, you know, um bringing a uh, you know, someone a subject back to safety or you know, whatever it is, a situation. And I think you know, yeah, when the door keeps closing on you on those types of jobs, potentially, then you know, for me, um I'm I I I delve into the intrigueness of why why are they wanting to behave like that? Yeah, there's a reason behind it, there's a reason behind every behaviour as we know. So for me, that's that intrigue. I'm intrigued to understand, and I want to help that person. It's a not normal situation, you know. Police surrounded a house or police on a bridge, you know, it's not a normal situation for someone. You know, why have we got to this point? I want to help that person, I want to. And and I think it's just that we're all different, aren't we? And you know, some people would say, Oh, you know, I don't know how you did that, you know, how how how on earth can you, you know, keep going back? So sometimes we used to have the same people that we turn up to as well, that unfortunately the services couldn't help and you know, support in perhaps the way we should as a society help people. So for me, you know what? It's I was still doing that job. I was I was filling the gaps and the in the moment there and then for people that weren't perhaps getting the the right support that we should be giving people um from the border perspective. And I think so. For me, yeah, that was that was probably it's always a you know a point whereby that's a motivator for me to, you know, and I think a lot of my colleagues in policing were very much like that as well, you know. Um, and do you know what? One of the biggest things, and I've I've got this is really important actually to say because one of the biggest things that we found there was a lot of attrition rate with regards to negotiators because of the uh the trauma that they were dealing with and the situations that they they would be faced with. And even going through the the training courses, you know, you get a week into the course, people giving their the sort of their life and soul to the course and the training. And sometimes people would step away, you know, and they I absolutely gave every piece of respect to those people that walked away because they said, you know what, this is just not for me. And I for people to actually resonate to understand and understand their own selves about knowing yourself, and to be given that I used to give people so much kudos for actually identifying that actually wasn't for them because it isn't for everyone, it really isn't. So yeah, so that and and and I know you know people will listen to this that have there will be people that have been there, you know, in respect of that. And I, you know, and I I'm still in contact with you know, several people that, you know, have walked away from negotiating for the right reasons for them, you know. They've they've done their their bit, they've they've done a huge amount for for people in, you know, in the community. And you know, at some point you've got to have that self-preservation and complete respect to those people identifying that at that time, at that stage in their careers. So yeah, I think it's important on that one.

Speaker 1 38:22

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for mentioning that. I I'm I'm I'm curious, Bax, you've kind of alluded to this a little bit, but what resilience means to you now and how that has changed uh over the years in terms of looking after yourself, showing up for yourself.

Silence, Presence And Non-Engagement

Speaker 38:40

So yeah, no, I think um resilience, I I you know, I for me it has it's changed, and I think that's through, you know, through um going through obviously, you know, the grieving process personally and through leaving police in. So a complete, you know, I was institutionalized, let's be honest. We, you know, like you know, you you you get institutionalized in in your careers, don't you? And I think you have this, you're in this bubble of, you know, this world of sort of protection and security of of who you are and who who's looking after you. And so you almost can feed off, you know, your resilience is almost, it's it's almost calculated within um, you know, a service or or public service. I think it's almost calculated because you know, you're expected to be resilient. And I think, you know, that's that's the harsh bit that you know you have to find your way. And I I found my way through my own mechanisms, you know, w within policing. But it was really clunky. My it was clunky. Um and and it's only now that I've I've actually learned and I'm utilising other ways to actually, you know, ground myself, make sure my my own well-being, you know, is is is looked after. And I'm really attuned to that now a lot more than I ever was within policing because I thought I had this security blanket around me. It's really weird, but now I haven't. I'm actually more open to that. So, yeah, so you know, the uh one of my ways of getting my my mind around, you know, my grieving process and and finding my identity was randomly deciding to run the London Marathon last year for the MS Society because that ticked loads of different boxes for me, you know, from an emotional perspective, give me, you know, physical, sort of like, you know, improve my fitness and you know, all of the all of the above, and then doing something for the charity, you know, because that was great for mum, and you know, being able to actually record that journey was really lovely. Um, and setting myself own personal challenges, I think that's that's key to it, and and developing something that I've always wanted to do, you know, and actually, you know, developing my own consultancy within my world and what I'm doing and my experiences and my skills, you know, just doing the business with the Dare girls, you know, that these are all the things that it's not just, you know, um eating healthy, sleeping, you know, all the stuff that we we you know, we we we hear about, we know we've got to be doing to build your resilience. But personally, actually, it's it's a little bit of everything in moderation to keep that balance to actually give me the strength to now, you know, go and actually um deal with difficult situations in a different perspective, you know, because I'm Bex Kant. I'm not Inspector Kant anymore. I haven't got that protection. My resilience is different now. I've got to build that in a different way. Um yeah, and I think it's um for me, it's it has and it's still, hey, and well, I think we joked about that before when we met. It's it's it's you know, it's all a journey, but I I don't particularly like using the journey, but there's there's no other way of describing it, is there? I think that's for me, we're on a journey, you know, we've all got an expiry date, so I'm gonna make the most of it. Hugely make the most of it, and um, you know, no best before us here.

Speaker 1 42:17

It's an interesting one saying about the the police almost expecting you to be resilient. And I think sometimes it's misunderstood as well as just cracking on, no matter what has gone on, and I know that has changed over the time, but I think that's one of my biggest shifts around that is you know it's not zipping up the suit and just cracking on, it's not being tough, and it's not yeah, it's uh it's a lot wider and hostilic than that. So I'm glad you alluded to that. Bex, as I'm I'm curious as we start to round this up, um, is is there anything that we've not mentioned that you'd like to talk about or or yeah, as we start to to finish off here for today?

Motivation, Trauma And Walking Away

Speaker 42:56

No, I think one of the one of the coping mechanisms I think um that haven't mentioned, which is is which really um good for me, is actually um agreeing to be part of um a consultancy for the SJ Group International, who um I'm working with now also, which deals with um risk management and um kidnapping extortion and and and that side of of my previous world. So for me, I've still got that link in, but in a from a different perspective. And I think that's important to be able to go and do something very similar, but not as like what you were doing. For me, that's and that's that's given me a huge um you know boost to me as a person, and you know, I'm not just sat on a shelf, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not giving up everything. I can still utilize my skill set, I can still go and help people in crisis, I can still go and you know deliver where I can. So that helps that being able to co. and be resilient to the the sort of the factors that surround you in everyday life, you know. Um so yeah, so no, that that's that's a love, a nice piece of work that I'm doing as, you know, with the within the consultancy world. And having lots of fun with the Dare girls as well, you know, going out and doing stuff. You know, when we're we're in Belfast next week, rocking Belfast, we're doing lots of networking. We're doing, I'm doing the Whit and Grit Live on next Friday with Katie. So doing fun stuff, making sure work is fun as well. You know, work can be fun. You know, I mean this is I couldn't wait for this morning, you know, because you know this it was just exciting just to come here and have this conversation. And like we said at the start, conversation with a purpose. I'd absolutely love you know love this stuff. And being able to pick and choose what's healthy for me. You know, if I didn't want to do this podcast with you, Aaron, I would have said so, been quite honest, you know, going back to my own values, I would have been really honest with you. So you know don't be afraid to say no to anything because that helps you, you know, with being resilient. Don't be afraid of saying no and I've you know I'm I've perhaps been you know not so good at that over the years but now I'm learning to say no to stuff that I don't want to do or don't need to be involved in. So yeah it's um it's getting the balance.

Speaker 1 45:19

Yeah yeah and and it isn't in that a journey saying no to stuff.

Speaker 45:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1 45:25

Bex listen thank you very much for taking the time to to speak to us today. It's been fascinating to hear about some of the stuff that you've got up to and and have some practical things to take away as well. But um yeah I'll put everything in the show notes and where we can get in touch with you. But yeah thanks again for your time and uh thanks for your service.

Speaker 45:41

Oh Aaron it's been an absolute pleasure it's been it's been great speaking with you this morning thank you so much.

Speaker 1 45:47

Pleasure