S3 Ep98 Joel Spooner: Trust Under No Control

The room went silent when Joel’s son didn’t take his first breath. From that instant, everything accelerated: 45 minutes of resuscitation on the kitchen floor, an ambulance ride that felt like forever, and the surreal calm of a NICU buzzing with experts. Joel takes us inside the father’s experience what it’s like to do infant CPR with shaking hands, to watch a newborn turn from blue to pink and back again, and to face a conversation about end-of-life decisions within 24 hours of becoming a parent.

Joel and his partner had prepared with intention midwives, a seasoned doula, infant first aid and that groundwork mattered. Inside the NICU, they learned to advocate with clarity: tracking plans across rotating shifts, asking precise questions, and challenging changes with respect. He shares how listening deeply, naming emotions without blame, and aligning with caregivers turned overwhelm into a shared mission to protect their son.

The emotional terrain is raw and human: flashes of rage, memory gaps, the disorienting relief of a “miracle” MRI, and the complex grace of accepting help. Joel talks candidly about pride, money, and what receiving really means when community shows up with meals, rent, and late-night messages. He also offers simple anchors that carried him through breathwork, “I am” statements, and the mantra “I am here now” and how those practices still guide bedtime meltdowns and ordinary days.

If you’ve ever wondered how resilience looks when control disappears, this story is a compass. If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave a review to help others find it. 

Joel is also very open for people to get in touch with him, should they wish to do so.  Connect with him via his website or Instagram. 

Transcript

Welcome And Intentions

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to Forge and Resilience, real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Fortune Resilience, I'm joined by my friend Joel Spooner. Joel's son, brother, father, partner, and ally committed to radical self, accountability, and honest connection. It carries both the fire and the compassion, embracing life as it unfolds, including the most joyful and confronting chapters. Shaped by profound moments of love, uncertainty, and growth, Joel moves from place to place of presence, communication, and responsibility. Joel, welcome to the show, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Thank you, Ron. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

No worries, mate. I'm curious, um, how did that feel when it gets read back to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Ah, I tingled. That's beautiful. Love it. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Joel, let's I'm gonna go straight to it, mate. And what what what would make this a valuable conversation for for you tonight?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Uh for me, I think it's it's it's really I mean, one of the reasons why I was keen to come on the podcast is I've been asking the question is what value can I offer to other people through the experience that I went through. So this is how I mean, yeah, this this this really isn't for me in that sense. I've done a lot of processing of this, I've done a fair amount of talking, and I I uh have unpacked a lot of what came up in my experience. Um so even though I'm wanting to express value to other people and to open up my world for other people to potentially I I have no idea how it's gonna land with others, um, but it's really being driven by what I can offer back out um as a result of what I've gone through. Um, and I also also know that going through this process as well is gonna um be another form of processing for myself. Um, you've not uh heard my story, um, and so even just sharing this in in this sort of way is um another beautiful space. And I think just even having you create this space of 45 minutes an hour to to hear me and to be curious, like that is a huge gift in its own right. Um, it's a massive gift to be listened to um and to be asked questions. That's that's powerful. So for for me in that space, I know that if I create a space to be heard uh by another human being and related to, then that's powerful enough for me as well.

Why Share This Story

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Awesome. So you you you mentioned it earlier, mate, that what you went through. So what what is it that you went through?

Preparing For Birth And Support Team

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Well, I became a father. That's that's a journey in its own right. Um that is a journey in its own right, and then um in the becoming of a father, um we went through a rather intense um uh birthing experience. Um and I think I just like I love I love that your podcast talks about resiliency and this it's all about resilience, and like this is I am going to very much talk about my experience of this. I'm not gonna talk about my wife's experience, I'm not gonna talk about my son's experience, I'm gonna talk about my experience in this. Um, and it's just also really important for me to acknowledge the resiliency of my wife and the resiliency of our boy. Uh I've just through going through this and just witnessing a woman go through pregnancy, birth, and post, I've got a whole newfound reverence for women. Like the the resiliency that exists within them, within their bodies, within their emotional, spiritual spectrum. It's uh incredible, and I feel deeply honored to have been able to be present in that space. Um, yeah, and it's just yeah, so it's really just important for me, just in terms of like resiliency. Like, there is huge resiliency in in the women in our world and the children. Um I think if I've what I'll do is I'll just go like kind of like straight to the point, and I'll just acknowledge like what I'm going to talk about now. Um, it was it's pretty intense. Uh it it it may bring up things for your listeners. Uh, this does involve a childbirth, it does involve um emergency situations, it does involve uh being in hospital. So there may be things that I'm saying that might be slightly tender for some people, just as a heads up. Um and like I said to you before we got on the call, uh you can ask me any question that you like. Um, I will go slow through this process and um and open to any sort of inquiry. Um but we let's just go um pregnancy was all smooth, beautiful, golden, couldn't have asked for more for that. Um scans all clear, everything all great, real strength and bond between me and my wife, um, and both did a lot of prep in terms of being set up for for bringing a child into the world. Um, and then um our boy was born at home, we were always planning a home birth, would always still do a home birth. Um, and we had an incredible team that we'd built around us. We had um our local midwives and we also had a doula on board. Um uh when our son was born, he had um uh uh right-sided CDH, so congenital diaphragmatic hernia. So he had a hernia in his diaphragm, a hole in his diaphragm, which resulted in all of his lower organs coming up, blowing through his diaphragm, squashing his right lung, pushing his heart over. We obviously did not know what was happening, um, and uh and then we consequently ended up in a uh an emergency resuscitation situation. So that's that's what happened.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Can can I just ask then, Joel, when when he was born, was anything visible no, so well um no, nothing had come out of his.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

There was no uh external wounding or external um signs other than he didn't take the the first gasp. Um and so I'm I'm I'm kind of open to to being guided by you in terms of where we want to dance in this because then there's that. So we had a 45-minute resuscitation at home in the kitchen, then we were three hours in an emergency, and then we were 51 days at um BC Women's Children's NICE. So there's like there's a lot within all of this?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Yeah, yeah. I I I I think I've sensed a a a panic coming up at myself just hearing that um as I'm sorry, I'm curious what yeah, where the fuck did your head go when you saw that your little one didn't take the first breath?

The Home Birth Turns Emergency

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Okay, I'll I'll take a little step back before that. Um because up until that point, even in and amongst all of the unknown of birth, um I felt very trusting in the process and was able to hold myself emotionally just in terms of everything that was going on. And Ardula was incredible, absolutely incredible. She's very, very experienced, held an amazing emotional space, not only for my partner but for myself, and I had also done a lot of prep work with my partner in advance. So um I felt um empowered to be in that space as a father, as a partner, um, and very much part of that space, and also built a communication with my my wife around how we work together in that space, knowing that she's going through something um uh kind of uh don't have the word right now. Transcendal is what transcendal is what I want to say, but um so uh her labor was four hours long. Um so the first the first kind of shock to my system was 5 a.m. wake up. We were sleeping in separate rooms the night before. 5 a.m. wake up. I had work that I was gonna go do um uh outside in the pouring rain, and um my wife came in and was like, My waters have broke. Bang. So it's like that's the first thing I hear, and then I'm like, okay, we need to sort this out. And then I'm also like, I've got to figure out what I'm doing for work, like I can't let people down. Like that's one of my things, is like if I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna show up. So I've got my wife there, baby kind of like could be imminent, but also we'd been told, you know, water's breaking, you could still have a baby 48 hours later. Um, so it's time wasn't there, so I was just like, okay, well, I've got to make sure I'm um showing up or not showing up to work. Um and then uh yeah, so that was probably the first shock to the system um of of now this is reality. Okay, so this it this is going to be happening, um, and then I'm gonna just fast forward because there's a bunch of stuff that happened in between. But the the label was four hours, and my wife pushed like ten times, so it was it was intense for her, intense. And um I was there with her, she was in the bath at this time on all fours with only like six or eight inches of water. Um, and the doula was there as well, and um the doula actually caught our baby as he came out.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Well, sorry, mate, what's what is a doula?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

A doula, yeah, okay. So a doula is um well, I I imagine they describe themselves in various different ways, but what our doula was to us, um what they are is they they're not medically trained. They they understand the birthing world, they understand pregnancy, they understand women, and in kind of like a sort of simple form, they fill the gap up until a midwife would arrive. So they've got enough experience and understanding that they can carry you through emotional spectrum, they can hold space for a woman going through these different birthing experiences, and they have enough understanding of uh physiological sides of birth that they can support uh a family um up until the midwives, but also like they can support you through the whole birthing experience. It's just that they don't have the medical training or licenses to technically be there as your medical um team. So um, whereas like midwives, if you're having a home birth and and probably even if you're birthing at the hospital, will only come at a certain point, they won't come and sit with you whilst you're Netflixing and chilling, um, sort of thing. Whereas a doula is there to be with you through as much of the process as you want them to or you agree with them to. Um so fortunately, our doula had actually gone through many, many, many births, was incredibly experienced, and we had built a a very, very strong sense of trust between the three of us. Um and that was that was pivotal for for all of us, um, and an incredible resource to have neither myself or my wife have family close by. Um, and so having the doula was just a real strong sense of um emotional support, and actually gave as for me as a partner, um gave me uh the ability to be able to still be present but not have to step in and sort of like take responsibility for or things like that. I could I could my role was very clear to me, um, whereas I could see that if I wasn't um if if we didn't have our doula there, I I would have then been like, how do I hold space for my wife and myself and hold all these sorts of things? Whereas like I yes, I was holding space for my wife, but the doula like when she stepped into our apartment, I just like it's everything just calmed. It's like real, and she's just like knelt down next to my partner, and um it was amazing just to watch and witness her process of being with a woman going going through labour, um, whereas you know I have no experience with that, um, and uh being a man, you know, connected in a different way, so yeah. As I see it.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Was it her that took the lead on things then, Charles, when you realised that things weren't um yes and yes, yeah.

CPR, First Responders, And Shock

Building Trust Amid The Unknown

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I mean, yes and no. So um so it was a quick labor. We'd been in communication with the midwives. Um there was a point in which um our doula was with my wife, um, and then mm the doula and I switched out, and so I was actually with my wife very close to when the baby was coming, and doula was on the phone to the midwives explaining what was happening. So the midwives were now on their way. Um, but literally by the time she got off the phone, I think my wife only had to push like one more time. Baby came out, passed passed him through her legs to me, and just like this huge, like I don't like joy, but joy on steroids of just it maybe it isn't even joy, I don't know, but it's just like whoa, like suddenly there is this like this little being that I'd never met like physically, and I'm now holding him, um, and just like incredible, and and even just like things like we've done so much work, he had the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck. If I hadn't done the the work beforehand, that probably would have freaked me out because I'm like, oh, he's gonna strangle himself. The dude was just like, just unwrap that around his neck, and because I knew that it's not a big issue, it's just like a simple thing of just like wrapping that around from around his neck, and then she passed him through to me. I had a moment with him, and then just passed him straight up to my wife, and it was amazing then just to see her connecting with him. So there's this this period of seconds, but felt quite slow of of just beauty and joy and uh connection, and then yeah, then there wasn't much responsiveness from him. So Ardula did say to my wife to start just sucking his nose and um clearing his airwaves, so she definitely because she so she could see something was not quite right, and again, she's been in many many situations, so her level of uh calmness and grounded uhness was just uh amazing. Um and then you know, we're rubbing his feet, and then it was like okay, call the midwives. So she fairly quickly she was like, call the midwives. So we called the midwives to be like, right, calm. But their immediate thing was call 911. Um, so now for me, kind of answering the first question you asked, where was my state of mind? Is like I've just been in this like space of like witnessing and being close with my wife going through this incredible huge thing, and just like that's a whole podcast in its own right, just like resiliency of women and birth. Um joy to then like shit 911, call 911, um and so my state of mind if I was to reflect back was one of um panic. Um and and and it is kind of interesting because there's there's this panic, dread was huge, like a huge wave of just like gut-wrenching, just like um and and then and then interestingly the state of mind is also just like well what's next, what has to be done next? So it's kind of like it's it's a real really weird combination of experiences, um, and at this point, like oh he's not taking his first breath. So there's not this kind of like sense yet of the severity of it, yet it's still quite severe. Anyway, so on the 9-1, and I can't, yeah. So go get some towel, go get soft, you know, even this, like this is like the panic mind. He was like, Go get some towels. So I ran in and I'm like, Do I get a big one or a small one? Yeah, what what a what a fascinating question to ask in in that sort of situation, and I would call that the panicked mind of like, I need to do something right, but like, what's the right one? Because this is out of my control, and I have someone on the phone right now. Um, and he goes, It doesn't matter, and of course it doesn't matter. So I I really remember asking that question, just like wow. Um, anyway, took towel back in and then we'd we and we've been rubbing and rubbing, but it's just like, and so in that time he still hadn't taken a breath. So I think even when I came back, it was just like he's not breathing. So then the guy on the phone was like, You've got to do nine um CPR. Um a thing about this whole experience is everything happened um perfectly in in what is a chaotic world. Um two days before we had done a baby first aid uh program, so I knew how to do CPR uh on our baby. Um, and it's it's a mechanical thing at that point, like emotions kind of go out of the way. It's just like I took took the baby off from my wife's hands, umbilical stalk cord still attached, she's in the bath, put him on the bath mat, and then boom, two fingers down, breaths chup tup tup. And this is this is where my emotional ride, I would say, really started to like ramp up because now I am in a space of sense of responsibility, um and I I am also I know what I'm doing. I'm not an expert, but I know what I'm doing, and I even felt him respond to the breathing, and literally the sense of like, oh my god, I've just brought my son to life, which is a boom, and then the reality of my mind goes, No, no, John, that's that's not how this works. I've got to do another round, and I don't know if you've done CPR ever on a baby, but they are slippery. Like if you go do the training and you've got some rubber doll, and it's like, oh yeah, solid, heavy. This is a slippery newborn baby. And the first time I did it, you mouth you've got to get your mouth round then, nose and mouth. I got a great connection the first time. Second time, I I can't get a grip on him, he's just slippery and slimy, and and and then my panic starts to go up, but I managed to get enough on him round two, but then I'm like, fuck, this isn't working, and and and that's now so I've just gone from so again, it's just like this dance between huge, like elation of joy, and like, oh my god, I've just like save my boy to like no no no the reality is like he can't breathe, and CPR is like I don't know about this now, and then so just coming from that to then just dread again and just like literally just like my gut's just like flowing. Um, and then two firefighters bang through the door. Um, so immediately I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna step back, um, and then just let them get on. Um, two firefighters, and we're in a small bathroom, like it's it's smaller than the size of the room I'm stood in now. It's just pretty tiny. Two firefighters in there, followed quite quickly by two midwives, and there's paramedics. Um, so what went from kind of like three of us somewhat um, it's pretty intense from a while, but um was suddenly now a bathroom with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight people, including my son, um, and then three or four other people in the kitchen prepping for a resuscitation. Um so that was like intense. And then there's there's like so many steps along the way that I can can explore, but I'll just pause for a minute there.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yeah, I'm I I I think I know I know you wanted to talk about trust and and and I'm I'm I'm curious, was was was that an active thing going into this process, or was it was is that a reflection that you've had post um experience?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

As in trust itself.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

That was actively built throughout. Actively built throughout. Um and that was that was down to you know Well, I mean you take you take birth in its own right, it's a huge unknown. The human race seems to not like the unknown. We try to find numbers and figures and reason and all this stuff to find peace in what is the unknown. And um for me at least I find peace in finding peace with the unknown. Um and I also love to control things, so there's an element of like safety in that, and um, and I think that's why this is of a beautiful uh experience to have gone through for that exact like highlight of where we just control nothing, yeah other than how we choose to show up, yeah. Um yeah, trust was built through conversations with the midwives. Um and you know, even like there wasn't a lot of pushback on homebirds, but you know, once you say we're having home births, different people's fears come up, and it's all just dealing with fears, you know. So it's like then it's okay, so people have different fears, so we're then having conversations, and then it's advocating for yourself. So that there's me as a as a partner, but then there's my wife and what's important to her, you know, and and then articulating that and communicating that to your medical teams, to family members, to other people, and so you're then going through an experience, and yet you're also then having to navigate other people's fears and have discussion and conversation around that, which again is a process, it builds trust, and and and through that, even conversations with uh the doula, for example, yeah, we built really big trust there and trust there because we were able to um question some of her thinking and and see some of where potentially there were there were blind spots in like where we're actually connecting, and then to so so for example, like the medical system used to scare the living shit out of me. I've got like my mum's gone through asthmatic things and like so I've gone through a lot of different medical stuff. I've also had an upbringing of a mum who does acupuncture, Chinese helpful medicine, she is our community healer. Um, and so I've had this kind of like really weird relationship with the medical system growing up, um, kind of like not seeing it as something that's that's wrong, but it's seeing it as like something that's maybe not as empowering as it could be. Um and then and then so you now take walking into like a birth space, um, which is a natural process, and as a natural process, can have serious ramifications and complications. So suddenly then there's there's the fear um that that results in that, and then you've got you know different systems and and and different people's agendas that start to play in in societal narratives around two people who are trying to create and bring a baby into the world in the safest way possible for them. So even just navigating all of that and those discussions and building our team around us um created trust because there was um uh discussion, dialogue, and discourse.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Is is that something that would have been quite strong for you before becoming a father, Joel? Um and yeah, I'll I'll go into a follow-up on question is and has that experience had carry over in terms of trust into certain areas of your life and how you show up?

Advocacy In The NICU

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So I'd say it was it was always important to me before becoming a father, and just in my own experience things, I had so much work to do in terms of being able to communicate and articulate myself and and navigate discussion, discourse, wants, needs, other people's fears, discerning what is mine and what is someone else's, um, is it's still a work in progress right now. Um, and so it was always something that's incredibly important to me, um, and I committed to it, so I leaned into it, um, uh not knowing what the results were, but just being heart-led in the sense that even being able to um I'm gonna say the word confront someone, but it's like hearing someone speak and then going, oh, there's something about that that doesn't resonate within my system right now that doesn't create a sense of trust. So can you speak to that? And there'll be so many times in the past where I might not say that for fear of their reaction, for fear of them thinking I'm this or whatever. So me getting caught up and taking responsibility for their part to play. Um, whereas the more I've started to take 100% responsibility for myself and allow other people 100% responsibility for themselves, that's where trust is allowed to build because I'm expressing my experience of of how I'm experiencing a conversation and doing it in a way of curiosity. And then once those words of truth have left my mouth, it's then the responsibility of the other person to choose how they want to to continue in or or not continue in discussion. Um, and that's that is such a I I I used to be shit scared of that space. I love that space now because um that that's where trust is built.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yeah, and I guess then if I was to reflect or zoom back a bit from that, there's an art to the way that you communicate that.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Um yes. And do you like do you want to know like what that art is in from my perspective or it's like yeah, yeah, go for it. But it it's to be able to hold oneself in love and um hold any judgment that one creates or one hears externally without needing to fight it. Um, and so the more I've created that self-compassion within my own being, the more I'm able to sit with someone else's discomfort because I can sit with my own discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Yeah, so what I hear for myself is there is that the ability to be present and grounded.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Present and grounded, and also present enough to know that if I've completely gone unground, well I not completely because if I've completely gone ungrounded, then it's gonna take me a little minute to come back, but to notice where I'm like, oh well, this is where I've I've just lost my I'm in fear, fight, flight now. Yeah, what do I need to do? Do I need to step out, take a bit of fresh air, then come back in? And and and that has been a quite powerful place for me to catch that and then communicate that because again, that's coming from a place of love, it's coming from a place of I'm I'm I'm flooded right now, I'm not seeing seeing clearly. I want to stay connected and engaged in this conversation, but in order to do so, I'm just gonna have to take five minutes to go breathe and come back in.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Yeah, yeah. Joel, but I'm sure this will come back round in again as well. As you mentioned that you've gone through a lot of processing um after this experience. Um I I'm curious what some of the things that have shown up for you and what are some of the things you've learnt about yourself in in in talking about this in processing this whole experience.

Asking For And Receiving Help

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Um well just uh god, there's so many things. Um trust is a great one because there were so many areas of of of area so even before coming into this space, like I I always found myself to be quite a mistrusting person. I'm always quite highly vigilant and um through a lot of this, this kind of just heightened a lot of the stuff I was starting to work on. Um where it's like how like where am I mistrusting in myself? Um so I've become a lot more trusting of myself, um, and and in in that allows me to communicate more clearly because I trust myself. Um so that would be that would be huge because there were several things that happened along the way, especially when we were in the um NICU that I I intensive care was and sorry, the the in in the NICU um the neonatal intensive care unit um where um we were there for 51 days. Um so you're kind of like out of the intensity of the birth, the resuscitation. He also had to go through a surgery, and then you're in a recovery place which has got its own intensity, um, and and then you know relationally, you obviously don't have the same people in necessarily each day as shift work, so you've got multiple different types of people coming through providing care to your child. Um, and I'm incredibly uh uh I listen very well, and we're dealing with doctors' numbers and amounts of drugs that he needs to be put on, and we're tweaking them, we're weaning him off them. You know, then there's that communication that passes from one shift to the next shift, and then someone might have a slightly different perspective, but we're the one constant that goes all the way through, um, and we were present at every single rounds that the doctors would have. So I I was not as experienced, but we were just as informed as the team. So there were times where I had I chose to stop the doctors and saying no, that is not what the plan was, um, yeah, and then just other areas. So, like again, it's like that that um it's it's a really it's it's an inclusive well, I think the way I've always I've started to look at this more is like how do I include another and myself as opposed to you're wrong or I'm right. It's like how do we create something together, and that can only happen through through conversation, um so that that would be one thing, and then I think one of the other really big things that I've learned, like massive actually, um, is that in order to be part of community, um, I have to ask for help. And have to be able and willing to ask for help. Because if you if if I want to be in community, um it's all well and good saying, Oh, I I can show up and I can support you, I can come and help. If I don't go, can someone help me? Or if I don't go, someone's offering me support and go, do you know what? Thank you. Actually, that would be really helpful, and sink into the space of I want or need help. I'm denying other people the opportunity to connect with me, therefore, I'm denying the opportunity of community of what I consider real community where there's exchange of value. Um, because if I'm willing to offer it, why would I not be willing to receive it? Um and you know, just I I can give you a tangible example. One of the things was friends of ours when we were in the NICU set up a GoFundMe for us um because I wasn't going out to work. Um, and I struggled with the idea of saying yes to that. Um and then one of our parents just went, We're gonna pay for your rent. And again, like I I didn't feel I didn't like the idea of it, but in my body, literally just I opened up and I was like, Oh my god, that would be so helpful. So we said yes, and then so from the point of saying yes, dropping my pride around having to earn the money and letting people gift us money because that's what they could do, because they wanted to support us through something we were going through that they would not want to go through, allowed me to be present 110% with my child and my wife because I wasn't going, how am I gonna make money? That was taken off my shoulders. That like my community, our community took that off our shoulders to have to think about money, and that for me, like if if I was stubborn and stuck and was stuck in my pride, I I could have fought that and been like, no, we'll uh we'll get through this, and then try to carry everything. Um, so sharing the load would be the the um thing one of the things I've learned from myself. Um and just one one other thing that's it's come out more um recently is um being a dad, suddenly you've got I've got a child, and especially going through I don't know, so I can only speak from my experience, but going through what we went through, my number one priority is his care. As a result of that, the way I've then listened to or communicated with my wife is I've not necessarily heard what's important to her in the context of postpartum because I've just been thinking about what I think is right for our son, thinking I'm hearing what's right for my wife, but from reflection going, okay, if if I were to have gone through this again, I would probably well, I would pause and actually go, what is it that's important for you for your health? Um and that's and that's very much more from a from a relational communication standpoint of of of um again inclusive of both both parties.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Um yeah, in terms of asking for help, mate, I I heard you got help, and and was there times when you had to put your hand up and ask for help? Because I yeah, very different circumstances, but um I thought I'd seen and done a bit and until until I held my first child, and and that opened up a whole new world of experiences, as those of us that are parents know. Um, and similar in the sense of our first son's birth was going really well until it wasn't, and then to find the hospital ward flooded with wow, yeah. I I don't know how many people um that that was shocking to me. And once he was safe and in my arms wife, I broke down. I've I don't think I've cried like that ever from relief from the lack of control. Um yeah, yeah, I can't remember where I was going with that. I had a question.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Asking whether I've actually asked for help.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

So I there you go then. So even though nothing went wrong there, the emotional charge around these certain things, um, I could I can understand um why sometimes might need extra support to to let things go to process.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah, and so I think in that regard, yeah, I'm I've I've I've for my own individual support, I've I've been pretty good at that. And we were so like BC Women's and Children's Nick U in Vancouver, BC is one of the most incredible places. Um we were so well supported all the way through. I mean, the whole the whole process, even through like the emergency, it was incredible. Um, one of the resources we had access to at BC Women's and Children's was she was pretty almost like 24 hour like um a psychologist on board. You literally go knock on a door, have a 10-minute intensive, um, and I made full use of that. Um, yeah. Um, because especially in a space where it's like that is an incredible resource, uh, because I was able to go and share whatever was coming up for me, andor myself and my wife would be able to go in and share together what's coming up for us. Um, but I could go in there and have someone hold some space for me so that I could come back and hold the space for my wife and my child, you know, and so to have that was incredible. And then I've also got a pretty amazing community around here and um involved in the conscious connected breathing world, and one of my good friends, he's a facilitator of that. So I said to him, I said, can I come have a breathing session to help settle the nervous system um and just uh give myself space? So all the way through I was and and we also then sought this was more together. We sought a counsellor outside who used to be a midwife and now she deals with traumatic births. So even whilst we were at the hospital, we started to go see her on a regular basis. So, in that regard, like I would not be where I am right now had I not asked for any of that support or or even and the thing is I'd been doing that sort of stuff before we even went into childbirth. Um, and I guess kind of knowing my tendencies and or my previous tendencies and knowing what we went through and the intensity that that shakes the emotional spectrum and psychological spectrum, I could see there'd be a very, very different outcome if I didn't ask for help and or hadn't previously taught myself to ask for help.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah, yeah, there's so much in that. Um, and and asking for help and support. Uh yeah. Um, Joe, what what would you consider is the most challenging part of that experience?

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Or uh I mean the it's one the the the most challenging part for me, um, and this may not actually be asking sp answering specifically the question, but the one thing that always comes up for me, and I've done some work around it, was the the place where I felt most um alone is the word, but just like the biggest sense of dread was from our apartment to the first emergency hospital room. Um because it was just me and our son in the ambulance with the midwives and paramedics. My wife was not with us. Um and just going back when we were when he was being resuscitated in the kitchen on a baking sheet, um, I was there by his side, and it's incredible to watch a baby being I've never seen an adult being resuscitated, so I can't speak that. A baby being resuscitated because he was blue, um, bluey purpley, and he just went pink from head to toe. Um he just went pink from head to toe. And um, because the midwife who was resuscitating didn't know what was actually physiologically going on with him, she stopped resuscitating because technically he would be he would be in a good position. So when she stopped, all the oxygen just went. So he went from pink from purpley blue to pink to purpley blue again, and that happened twice at home when we got in the ambulance. Um this is like a it's a seven-minute drive to the hospital, and this is like an ambulance, it's just letting it rip. We're flying around in the back like this. There's keys flying out of people's pockets, and like I'm there. Um and the reason why I think this is one of the the most challenging places for me is because I couldn't remember some of this, or I blocked certain pieces out, um, but whoever was resuscitating him because he was having to be continually bagged the whole way, um, they lost it, and he went dark blue, like papa smurf blue. And so bearing in mind, like I've gone through like two or three of these like success drop, success, drop, success, drop. This was now a success to a drop, but now so I think this is where like it comes and comes to the trust thing. I could not remember that the midwives were in the ambulance. I thought they'd hand it over to the paramedics. I didn't have a relationship with the paramedics, so I thought I was alone with people I did not know in an ambulance, and my wife was not present to see our son die. Because I thought I thought he'd gone then. I thought fuck this is it. Um and like that just that that that was the point at which I think I lost any sense of um control, hope, um, anything like that. Because all went way before that it was it was golden. And like if I if if we didn't if we hadn't asked midwives and people to come back to kind of do a debrief when we arrived home, I would have always been sat here thinking the midwives were not in that ambulance, and that created anger because fear, you know, the fear I'm gonna blame now, and then it's like blame and it's like oh anger, anger, why were you not there? You know, that's where my mind was going. Um, yeah, so that was the because then at that point there, and then arriving at the um emergency hospital. Um I can't even remember really getting I can remember arriving, but I can't remember getting from the front door to the room. But I just remember arriving at the room and it being full of about 40 or 50 people, and my son being in the far background, I don't even know where my wife is at this point. And I'm just like, I guess I walk there, and so I just walk through this room of all the and I just like squeeze past, and then I get to his bed, I'm just there, and I'm just shouting at him to stay alive. Um and I just like well, first off, I Is like everyone in that room was incredible, and there was a lady that was working on a son, and she just turned to me and was like, You can be here, but you're just gonna need to not shout because we need to be able to communicate. So her like the resiliency of the team dealing with a newborn baby in an intense resusc situation, having this dad come in raging, raging, but like he's not raging out at anyone, but just like yeah, shouting like in in fucking shock. The this the level of compassion and love in them to be able to be in what is an intense thing where they're communicating all this stuff to be able to turn to another human being who's distraught, lost, go, you're welcome here, just shut up. Like I I heard her, yeah. I heard her.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

I was just like, okay, and and I've that lands over here as well, mate.

Miracle MRI And Complex Emotions

Memory Gaps And Coping

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah, and just incredible. And like like communication is one of the biggest things I think I've I've learned in all of this as well. And um in just in terms of the power of it and how effective and amazing, like all of the staff have been all the way through. Um I remember at that point there, like now we're kind of in it, and there's huge and having gone through in the ambulance, uh, rage started to come in my world, and I was just there, and like that's that's that's taken me out of connection many times in the past. Um, and I I literally was there for a moment because then the rage in my understanding in that space is like I don't have control, I'm I don't have control, and I need to control this, and I'm I'm like I've lost my son. It's like and I just had this, I wanted just to tear the place up. There was a big cabinet next to me, and I was just like, I'm just gonna go just smash this. So it's like huge, so I'm on that, and then then kind of having to go snap out of where you're like come back to your boy, you know. So it's like just huge, huge. Um so that that was like intensely confronting um uh in a very short period of time. Um, and then there was a lot past that. Well, I mean, because it is like, and this is I'm just because we we arrive at the the NICU. So there's a special transport unit which have been contacted. The NICU send over um doctors to come and prep baby to go to to the NICU. So they already are fully informed. So when they arrive, we get there, and the next ambulance arrive is actually a more steady ride. That's a weird one, actually, is is being in an ambulance driving through the centre of downtown Vancouver um and just like sitting there, the sun setting is being beautiful and also just like incredibly like we're encapsulated in this in this this world of of of chaos and just watching people go on their day-to-day lives, just staring at an ambulance going by. So really when I look at ambulances now, I look at them with such a different light. Um, because something is happening in someone's world right now that is not fun, um, and that that was something that really kind of sat with me. That yeah, so there's been a lot of learning in in this in terms of just appreciation for medical teams and also just appreciation appreciation for what many human beings go through. Um, and then you know we arrive at the uh NICU, and once they've got everything settled, we're taken into a room um uh to have a conversation with uh another again, communication, conversation, no hiding, just straight, straight talking stuff. And he asks us if we understood what's going on. Um, and our boy was having to have to go into a high-risk surgery after having gone through an intense resuscitation, and they were pretty certain he was gonna have significant brain damage. Um, and um as a result, he would not as a result, but he so he's we're now dealing with significant brain damage potential, and he's gonna have to go into uh highly risky surgery, which is normally scheduled, is normally picked up in a 20-week scan, and then normally straight into the operating theater because they're straight onto oxygen and then get operated on. Uh, so they were saying you will want to consider what it looks like for end of life for your baby should the MRI come back with significant brain damage, as we suspect. So within less than 24 hours of him being born and having gone through multiple stages of us thinking he's dying, we're now having this conversation of we need to talk about what it might look like for us to end his life now. You're like welcome to parenthood thing is for for myself and my wife does share a similar sentiment on this, is we've been so blessed because our son is fit, healthy, no brain damage. He he's been discharged from neurology, cardiology, surgery, with like glowing remarks. We've we've had follow-up teams coming in from infant development program, checking in on how he's doing, and he's like he is running around, he is communicating, he's laughing, he's been curious, he's been cheeky, he's being an amazing young boy. And it's literally like none of that happened. Because where we were there is like we've lost our son, we've lost our son, we've lost our son, we've lost our son. Then we're going, we're gonna have to go home with all this medical stuff, we're gonna have to go home with all this medical stuff. So we're going home with one medicine, which we then were off pretty quick. Um, to him, like he's got full-size lungs, he's fit, healthy. Yes, he has, you know, he is a another child who goes through sicknesses and stuff like that. We did have one time we had to go back into ER for breathing. Um, but this it's it's a real it's a it's a it's a really strange space to have gone through something psychologically and emotionally where you feel like where I felt like we've lost our son, but then we haven't. Because I could be sitting here with you having a very different conversation of grieving, what it looks like to grieve having lost a child and having gone through something intense, and in in a way that would have been more rational to understand. Um and it's like so it's so it's almost feels like I can't speak about what happened. I think that's kind of what I'm getting at because like that was that was back then. So even as I was just I think why I've gone there is because when I s paused after saying that, I'm like, geez, like that I wouldn't want anyone to go for that. That's like pretty that's pretty heavy. That's pretty heavy, like and then like but in terms of that like human resilience things, it's like you're you're in it when you're in when you're in the shit, that's all you can deal with, and whereas everyone else on the outside were were reeling emotionally, it's not to say we weren't reeling emotionally, but there's there's not the capacity to if if we followed that, we would not show up for what was directly necessary and important for us. Yeah, it's not to say you know everyone reacts differently, but this is in my experience, it is amazing to watch family members go through this emotional turmoil because they can't do anything, yeah. Where and and and and and they are like potentially in a place of like helplessness, and they're witnessing their their children and their grandchildren going through something that no one wants, and then friends like having these emotional explosions of like this is so unfair, like we've got such health, and you're going through this, and and us seeing these emotions, but going like we can't we can't relate to you. So there's a place where it's just like relational stuff is just like it's it's a really weird place to dance in because even when the MRI scan came back, doctors were in tears. It was unbelievable. They're like, this is a miracle, this this this is not the right scan. And and we're not even we like we've we've we've created space to celebrate that afterwards, but it just doesn't land emotionally in the same way it has for others, um which is a really really weird thing because I sp I speak about it and I'm not like oh my god, it was an like I'm I I don't feel it. It was it was a it was a an experience you went through, but didn't I dunno whether the highs and the lows at the beginning were just so intense that everything else just had to just be like and you know MRI great, but yeah, now we've got to do a surgery, and we've got like an unknown period of time in a hospital for however long. I it's it's it it's a really and I'm I'm fascinated by all this sort of stuff, um even down to like the level of like how the brain works, and like I can't picture there. Was one nurse who met us when we arrived at the NICU, she sat us down to talk to us and let us know kind of what's going on. I literally have no recollection of that. I cannot picture, I cannot bring a picture up. She came in to support us later on within those 51 days. I did not I don't think either of us knew we'd met her. She was our favourite nurse, she didn't say anything to us at this point. She was our favourite nurse or one of our favourite nurses, and and then later on toward the end, she discussed well, we we I think we were talking to her about because we started talking to different people about what it was like when we came in. She was like, I was one of the people that sat down with you on the sofa to talk to you, like no recollection of that, and and even in talking with her, it doesn't bring up anything. Yeah, this is fascinating. In that same space and that same time frame, we we were part of the discussion of all of these different um departments talking about our son's situation and and how to move forward, giving us detailed, specific information about the so I can't even recall stuff now, but like the mind, the the diaphragm, all this sort of stuff. When we got taken into that room to talk about potential end life care, he asked if if we understood what was happening. I was able to recall very clearly what the situation was, and like information that you know is is numbers and timelines and what's going on. So, like part of me was very connected and present and able to take information in, and another part of me was just like boom, gone out to lunch, not not around, filter can cannot remember, recall, or anything. It's it's it's that that I'm like, what is going on there? That's fat that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Yeah, yeah. Joel, I think I've got I've got two more questions. Well, I've got 102 really, but I'll narrow it to two. But um, I I think the penultimate question would be um so how do you show up now having lived that experience, having danced that dance?

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Slower. Love it. Um and that's that's his an ongoing practice, just slowing down and acknowledging that I only have control over how I show up. Um, and then what is important to me, connection, community, communication, and so those are the things that I then come back to um as the most important as a way of a place to operate from, um, that's a constant reminder, and having gone through all of this, and then just even just being a dad, it's like like number one, it's just like my greatest tool is to be able to go, I'm gonna slow down. Nothing's gonna happen. I don't have to do anything, I can just sit here and be with whatever's going on. Um, so that's yeah, that's um going slow.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Love it, mate. Love it, incredible. And and and I think the last one is if if there was somebody listening to this that has gone through this experience or yeah, what what might you what what advice might you recommend somebody that's walking through this experience currently?

Communication As A Lifeline

SPEAKER_01 57:27

It's kind of like ask for and receive help is one thing, but that's that's kind of like a straight if someone's like physically like in this right now, that's that's asking he is asking a lot for people that maybe aren't used to doing that. I guess I guess it's like communication. How comfortable are you with communication? Um and 'cause it's a very powerful tool, and communication is a it's a it's a two-way thing. It's like some people might feel like they're very good at communication, they're just very good at talking at people. Um so communication includes listening. Um and communication includes hearing your own inner reaction to one your own voice, but also the voice of others. Um because I believe like building that skill and honing that down is something that is one of the most powerful tools in any aspect of life in a really big way.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

Agreed, agreed. Love it, mate. Joel, I I typically finish these these podcast episodes asking, is there anything that you want to mention before we start to close out that we've not talked about?

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Yeah, I think I think one thing that would be really powerful is just intention as well. Um I was very intentional going into becoming a father. Um, and and and and I could even just be like, okay, if if we weren't intentionally trying to create a child, I created intention for how I how I want to show up in the birth space. Um and um so even in the time leading up to it, you know, I started getting out of some of my habits which kept me in a good place, exercising, breathing, meditating uh like morning. I used to do some morning breath work that I used to do quite a lot, and I'd stepped out of that. And I was like, okay, I need to pick this back up because I'm about to go into something that's going to test me in many ways that I do not understand. So I'm going to intentionally create a space. And one of the things I did was um started the thing called presence process. Um, and um it's a book by Michael Brown, it's a breathing exercise, and one of the mantras you say to yourself is I am here, I I am in this, I am here now, I am in this now. I know I can't remember exactly what it is. Um but that mantra helped get me through. I am here now in this. It's like just I am here, it's just helped bring presence to everything. Um and then the other intention as well, which which really helped me get through a lot of this was um I was working with Callum, Callum Wilson, the coach, as you know him.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:35

Heard of him, heard of him.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Um and we had started playing with I am statements, and those are some of the most powerful things that I used as anchors through every every day of every moment in that space. And it's as simple as I am love, I am present, I am held. And anytime I was like there in the room shaking, because everything I was saying, and I would even say them to my boy, but there's I'm saying them for myself, and it just for me, it's just like that created so much. So that is now a practice that I use all the time with him, even if he's like losing it because we're weaning him and I'm holding him, and he just wants mum, but like I'm there and I just I repeat the affirmations and that intentionality of of coming back to those anchors is just it's powerful because I I my mind can't argue with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Love it, mate. Love it. Joel mate, thank you so much for for showing up today. Thanks for for sharing some of your story as powerful as it is, like the man you are. Um, yeah, I'm blessed to be able to be able to witness that, mate, and and a lot of it has landed, and no doubt I'll uh got some reflecting to do as well. So, yeah, thank you very much, mate. It's been um it's been incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

I really appreciate the space in a really big way. So thank you for for opening this up and for all the other ones. I've listened to some of your previous uh episodes, and it is powerful just hearing some of the other people's stories and how they move through things. Um, so yeah, it's a great podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

Awesome, thanks very much, Joe. Lots of love, dude. Speak soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

Pea, bye.