S3 Ep100 Susan Charlesworth: Preparation Beats Panic

Astronaut training sounds like a world away from everyday leadership, until you hear what Susan Charlesworth learned at the European Space Agency: the best crews succeed because they master the human skills, not because they are fearless. Susan is a psychologist and human performance specialist who has trained astronauts, mission control teams, and Antarctic expedition crews in leadership, communication, decision making under pressure, and the human factors that keep complex systems safe.

We dig into what “soft skills” really look like in extreme environments, including how training uses case studies from aviation and space incidents to create urgency, then turns that insight into practice through simulations, clear roles, and disciplined communication loops. Susan also explains how astronauts are supported with tightly planned schedules, nutrition, sleep routines, debriefs, and psychological care, and why that structure can actually reduce stress compared with many workplaces on Earth.

One of the most gripping moments is the story of Luca Parmitano’s spacewalk near miss, when water began filling his helmet and communication became harder. It’s a powerful reminder that resilience is not a slogan: it’s preparation, procedures you can execute when your brain is flooded with adrenaline, and simple tools like box breathing to steady yourself in the moment. We also explore problem solving and creativity, why “shower moments” happen, how play can unlock better ideas for technical teams, and what humans may still do best in an age of AI.

If you lead people, work in high-stakes roles, or simply want to stay calm when pressure spikes, you’ll take away practical, grounded techniques you can use immediately. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with someone who thrives under pressure, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Get in touch with Susan on LinkedIn or via her website. 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Forge in Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life. So we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Forge in Resilience, I'm joined by Susan Charlesworth. Susan is a psychologist and human performance specialist who spent more than a decade working with astronauts, mission control teams, and Antarctic expedition crews. People operating in some of the most extreme and high-stakes environments on the planet. Today she brings those lessons into organizations through her business, Charlesworth Human Performance, helping leaders and technical professionals develop the human skills required to lead teams, make decisions under pressure, and perform when their stakes are high. Susan, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Thank you very much, Ron.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Susan, to kick us off, give us a little bit about your story, about your story and what took you into this fascinating world of human performance and working with astronauts.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, so I have and still have two passions. One was flying when I was a teenager. I was in the air training corps, the air cadets, and so I absolutely loved flying. And the other one was when I started studying psychology at A-level, which I know is a very popular subject now, but we're talking 25 plus years ago. Wasn't quite so well known, wasn't quite so popular, but I started studying it at A-level and absolutely loved it. So I was always in two minds whether I wanted to become a pilot or go to university and study psychology. And um I decided to study psychology and went into teaching psychology. And but the flying never really left me. I got my pilot's license when I was 17 as well. So I absolutely love flying still. And then I think it was, I can't remember, um, at some point I saw an advert, I think, in an aviation magazine for a master's in human factors and safety in aeronautics at Cranfield University. So it was all the human side of aeronautics and obviously how important uh, you know, what a big impact that has on safety as well. So we're talking, you know, human factors, human error, and you know, the good stuff as well that humans do to kind of save and prevent accidents. Um but it just was like, wow, this is the perfect mix of psychology and aviation and flying and everything I love. So uh yeah, went off to do my master's, and again, whilst I was there, this is talking, as I said, 20 plus years ago. They had a career service where you actually went into the career service and sat down and and um they had a job uh, like this is towards the end of my master's, they had a job position there, um, which was for the European Space Agency training astronauts and ground control crew or mission control in human behaviour and performance. And I was only 25 and I just thought that is the coolest job ever. Obviously, I'll go for it. So I did. Um, and yeah, they just took me on you know, probation for six months. And I think the fact that I had the flying and the um and the pilot's license, but I also had all the psychology and the human factors kind of experience and qualifications. So they took me on uh yeah, as I said, for a six-month probation. I ended up staying there for five or six years teaching um, as you said, astronauts, mission control crew, and Antarctic uh expeditions for um, yeah, in all the human behavior and performance stuff. So leadership, communication, teamwork, problem solving, decision making, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Fascinating. Um I'm I'm curious, what's the biggest like standout lesson do you think, if you were to just cast your time back to those five years with the with the European Space Agency?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

That is is that is there one thing that you yeah, I have had people ask me this before, and I find it really hard to think of one thing other than just a general yeah, well, a general observation. I think people always they're always fascinated by space and astronauts and exploration and the kind of person that would, you know, uh put themselves forward to becoming an astronaut, which is an incredibly rigorous process, but the kind of person that's you know goes to goes to space. And um, I always just say like the astronauts are I'm gonna be cheesy here, but they are very down to earth. They are all really lovely, normal people. They're obviously incredibly well qualified, you know, they have really interesting experiences. That's how they became an astronaut. I mean, the as I said, the selection process lasts for a year, two years sometimes. So there's an incredibly rigorous um process they're looking for. But at the end of the day, they're humans, right? And that's what I always say, you know, whatever organization I go in, or when I give speeches and I look out into the audience, I just think a people are people, right? They are just the same as you and me. So yeah, incredibly interesting, incredibly experienced and um intelligent, but they are still just human beings. So um that made my job a bit easier when I realized that, I think.

Why Humans Go To Space

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah, yeah. There's so many similarities. I know we might have touched on this, but I I I mentioned this to uh uh my mentor and my friend Sharon, um, how many similarities there are in between your paths, and I couldn't help but chuckle and I chuckle again to myself as you re-account your very similar but different paths and people, people being people. Um I I'm also curious, Susan, that in terms of what the European Space Agency, this might be slightly left field, but what's the point of the Europeans having a space program out of my ignorance?

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Okay, so um, I mean, what's the point of anyone having a space program? There's a lot of people that would argue we don't even need humans in space. We've got, you know, satellites and robotics and all this kind of stuff. Like, why do we need humans up there anyway? So the International Space Station, which is about 400 kilometres above Earth that orbits round Earth, um, that's where the that's where the astronauts are going. And we can talk about future missions in a moment, but um that's where they are at the moment. They go there for about six months, and you know, they test the human body basically. Uh the human body, the psychology. They do a lot of scientific experiments on the payloads and things there as well. But you know, at the moment we need humans to do that. It's really interesting to see what happens. I do remember, so I worked quite a bit with the British astronaut Tim Peake, and we were kind of uh sounds very glamour, so we were in Chamonix having a couple of drinks with some other um really interesting people, and um and you know, people started kind of saying, Yeah, why do we have put humans in space? Why do we need that? And he just said, like, it's about exploration, right? It's about pushing the boundaries. Why do humans do anything? Why do we, you know, climb ridiculous mountains or you know, go to these extreme environments? I mean, you've spoken to so many people that do this, like, why do we do this at all? Um so that's kind of you know, once once he said that, I just thought, yeah, there's it doesn't have to be like a logical explanation for absolutely everything. Although, as I said, they also do an awful lot of um research and and that on the space station that makes it very important. And then for the European Space Agency, it's our way, obviously, you know, unless you're born in Russia or uh America, you know, that so it's the Russians, the International Space Station is um, I always say it's kind of almost half, sort of, you know, in terms of the size, Russian, so Roscosmos, the Russian um space agency, and half uh American, so NASA. And then we have the Europeans have, you know, the Columbus module where we do a lot of the Europeans do a lot of their experiments and things. The Canadians have a robotic arm that captures spacecraft. Um, the Japanese have the Jaxa, they have their module there as well. So it's a way for, you know, it really is an international space station. It's a way for lots of different countries to get involved in the space, in the human space um program.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Going back to one of the things that we decided to talk about, which is leadership and depression, and I'm curious, Susan, as a as a young woman of 25, walking into that that sort of environment, did you ever find any pushback and in in terms of what you brought or? And if not, no worries, but how did how did you set yourself up to be able to deliver those sorts of topics to these people from a different, well, I'm gonna say planet them, but that's a bit cheesy, but from yeah, from yeah, from a different environment, completely different way of working.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

So I'd say a couple of things. Um, one is that I was obviously incredibly nervous. Um, I do also always say I didn't know at the time, I didn't know the term imposter syndrome. So I didn't have it. Um has kind of become a bit of a thing that I talk about quite a lot. Um but so I didn't have that. It wasn't a self-fulfilling prophecy that I felt, you know, nervous and imposter and therefore I shouldn't be there and all that kind of stuff. I felt nervous because you know, I was 25, I was, you know, a young woman going into a very technical environment. I, you know, didn't know, I mean, I knew, you know, a reasonable amount about space and aeronautics, but you know, I wasn't the expert in terms of going to space at the time. Um, so yeah, I definitely acknowledged that I had all those feelings. What helped me was that I knew an awful lot about psychology and human factors and how important it was. And as much as the people I was teaching, as I said before, were incredibly experienced and intelligent, the things that they were experienced and had qualifications in were very technical. They were very different. They hadn't studied psychology, they probably hadn't even done it, you know, at high school. They were very, you know, they were engineers and scientists and things like that. So actually I realized pretty quickly that they didn't know, you know, and why should they? They didn't know the basics, the foundations of psychology, they didn't know, you know, what human factors was or why it was important. I mean, some of them obviously did, but um, you know, the vast majority, because they hadn't ever studied it or, you know, or had any experience of it. So I had that. I also, um, the person I worked with, the European Space Agency, my boss, my mentor, you know, obviously she helped, um, she was much um had a lot more experience, so she helped a lot um as well. And then it was just getting the stories of all the people there. So getting to know the astronauts, getting to know all the ground control crew, sitting in and all their simulations, all that kind of stuff. It's just, you know, as with any new job, building up the experience, I wasn't expected to know everything at the age of 25, you know, in my first week. So um, in that sense, it was the same as any organization and and starting a new job there.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

And and I'm guessing then if people have gone so through such a rigorous process to be there, there's a certain capacity and desire for learning. And so if somebody is presenting a new way of explaining the same thing or a new subject, that they're they'll be quite open to receive, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, going back specifically to the astronauts, but they all get so much training. Um, and you know, again, I've heard many times that people say, you know, ask the astronauts like, were you nervous, like sitting on the launch pad, etc.? And they um they say that they weren't because they have so much training. I mean, their basic training is like 18 months to two years before they're even assigned to a mission and have that really mission-specific training and and all the you know really in-depth simulations and things. So they will have years of training before they ever um fly. Uh, so yeah, they they are definitely used to to learning to yeah, uh, to have the kind of training that I was delivering as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

In terms of some of the training that you were delivering then, in your experience and what you were teaching, what what tends to give out first? Is it the systems or is it the human next to it or behind the system?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

So in terms of the in terms of the training, did you say?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Well, yeah, or the or the the things that you have, yeah, I did I did say in training, so yeah, that's wrong with with training.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

No, it's okay. Um I don't know if this is answering your question, so ask me again when I've said this. So uh that how I see when you sit and talk about systems, I think of systems and processes and procedures and those kind of things going wrong, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Um so I always say so um just to complicate things slightly, when I got the job first at ESA, I was teaching human behavior performance. So it really was what we call the soft skills, which I think Ron and I, we had this conversation, these are the most difficult, hardest skills um for people to acquire. Uh they are not soft and fluffy, they are really important. So that's what I was teaching for the first sort of five or six years when I was working for ESA. Uh, and it was really about kind of, as I said, communication, decision-making, leadership, all that really good stuff. However, my master's and what I actually went back, so I set up my own business four or five years ago and was asked by ESA to come back to teach their new core of astronauts. So in 2023, 22. Um, and this time I really was teaching them human factors, so they do actually differentiate the two: the human behaviour and performance, so the soft skills, and the human factors. And this was much more about how the human is interacting, like very simply, but interacting with like the hardware, with the technical stuff, with the processes, procedures, the systems, you called it. So they do at least at ESA treat them quite separately. Um, and I taught both. Um, and and they they have courses on on both the human behavior performance and on the human factors as well. Um, so I don't know that probably doesn't answer your question, but just to clarify what I was teaching.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, no, no, no, it does. That and and um and for me then it what sort of things were you teaching that you might be able to give us a small insight? No, it's such a massive question on such an in-depth subject here, but what sort of things might might listeners be able to hear um in terms of yeah, the human human behaviours and and how they're showing up in in terms of being being a leader, the the the soft skills, as you mentioned, that aren't that soft, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah. So I mean, if it might help if I just kind of explain like our method when we were teaching, first of all, was um, and this sounds really awful when I say this, but we kind of had to deliver almost the shock value. So, why is this stuff really important? Why do we need why are we teaching these soft skills? Um, so the first thing we always, well always, but most of the time when we were introducing a topic was to give an example of where this had gone wrong. So it would be, you know, the aviation accidents or shuttle or Columbia, you know, the space shuttle um accidents. So we would start off with a case study of where this, you know, where the human behaviour performance wasn't optimal and things had gone wrong, um, so that they would really realize what the implications and consequences of this are. And then obviously we would give them kind of the you know different techniques and things of how they could improve. And we would also always run through, you know, scenarios and give um, you know, and and simulations and things like that where they would actually put it into practice. And it wasn't always negative, so we did um have so so, for example, uh with communication, we would, as I said, talk about like an aviation accent where they weren't communicating properly with ground, or you know, they were different languages or different acronyms or whatever it might be, and um, and then we would also then talk to the astronauts and they would have the um so it's just when we were teaching like the ground control crew, so they would have to set themselves up as a ground control crew, they all had different roles, they don't all just talk to the astronaut or talk to each other all the time, they have certain you know, um loops that they talk to each other on and a kind of a hierarchy, so they all talk to the um flight director who then talked to the in um to the Eurocom, which is the same as Capcom in NASA, and they they are the only person that then talks to the astronaut. So we would run these scenarios with them where they would, you know, have to sort themselves out and you know, sort out the communication lines and that so that they weren't all talking over each other and and that kind of thing. So lots of examples like that. We also um, in terms of case studies, we did get told once um, so a lot of the people they would come to Cologne where the astronaut centre is for their training, and then they would all, after our training, they'd fly off back to you know wherever they were, because the European Space Agency has locations all over Europe. And one time one of the ground control teams said to us, you know, we absolutely loved your training, but we're just about to get on a flight now, and you've just given us a week's worth of aviation experience. Um, so we did still give the accidents uh as examples, but we at least on the last day, um, actually I used it as an example for decision making. We used Captain Sullenberger who landed the um plane on the Hudson River and everyone survived. So at least on their last day, they were left with a more positive case study um of an aviation accident. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

So what what what sort of tools and techniques uh again? I know it's a really in-depth potentially there, but that just to skim across the surface, the the tools and techniques that you were showing them for, yeah, let's say communication or leadership and uh under pressure when things are starting to go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah, so um, well, if I can give an actually an example because it now it's on my mind about the decision making. So obviously Captain Zellenberger and his co-pilot, um, you know, they had excellent communication and he showed great leadership there. So that was a great example. And then in terms of the decision making, so this is used quite often in aviation, we use the four-deck model. Um, so I've completely forgotten what they are, can't remember what F is, but options, and then they have to go through the risks and benefit, they have to make a decision, they have to execute the decision, they have to check it, and then F is fact. So, yeah, get your facts first. So we would use different models, as I said. A lot of it was based on aviation training. So I don't know who you've had on the podcast as in aviation, we call it crew resource management, so CRM training. Um, so you know, very similar type of training uh that they give all the pilots and the cabin crew as well in aviation because they realize, you know, way before, you know, years and years ago, how important this type of training is to prevent accidents. So we based a lot of our training on that as well and learnt from aviation.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

I'm I'm curious if if you've seen feedback loops that come back. I mean, coming from the military, obviously, we do lots of simulation, lots of practicing, and then sometimes real life can look so, so different. Um yeah, have have you seen that play out?

A Spacewalk Near Miss And Debriefs

Stress Management Preparation And Box Breathing

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Absolutely. So all the astronauts, when they come back, so I said they are on the space station for about six months, and then they come back, and you can imagine um they have literally months of not only physical rehabilitation, uh, but also they have lots of debriefs as well. So all the scientists that have had their payloads up on the space station, you know, they obviously want to know how things went from a technical point of view, but they also have debriefs as well on everything else. So that's one way of getting feedback of kind of what worked and what was effective. Another really interesting example, though, um, was that of one of the East astronauts, um, Luca Palmatano. So he had a real near miss when he was on the space station. He was doing a spacewalk or an EVA. And um, whilst he was out, like, because they have to spacewalks as much as they look fun and like, oh, that's what astronauts do, they go on spacewalks. Actually, it's one of the most dangerous things they can do on the space station because obviously they are coming outside the space station into an incredibly dangerous, extreme environment. So it takes, you know, A, they lots and lots of training, they only do it if they really need to fix something on the space station. It's not just a jolly um and a bit of fun. Uh an awful lot of preparation goes into it. And again, talking of training down um on the earth as well, you know, hours and hours and hours and hours are spent training uh these space walks. But anyway, so he was on a space walk fixing part of the space station, and he noticed that he could feel some moisture on the back of his neck. Um, and it is common, although it's not ideal, it is common that sometimes they're drinks bags they have to obviously take out because they're outside the space station for seven, eight hours, so they have drinks bags and things like that there. So he thought that was leaking, but it kept, you know, he kept feeling more and more moisture. And um how it works in space is actually that it created like a film of moisture around his face that he couldn't kind of shake off, so he realised pretty quickly this was, you know, a serious problem. So he had to um, you know, get back to the hatch and get inside the space station, you know, clearly to take everything off. And as he was doing that, you know, he could feel the film of water start to cover his eyes and nose and mouth and his ears as well, so he couldn't hear the astronauts inside the space station or outside, he couldn't hear ground control, so he really I mean, talk about resilience um and leadership of his own self, you know, he really had to um you know sort that out himself. So, I mean, there's an awful lot more to that, incredibly interesting, he survived, um, just to put it out there. Um, and but clearly when he came back down to Earth, he had um, you know, in terms of the investigation that went on there and all the things um that went wrong and went right and and all the rest of it. And he then actually, I wasn't involved, I'd left Easter at this point, he then actually joined the human behaviour and performance training that I used to do and would spend like, you know, uh I don't know, a day or so with the new astronaut corps to talk to them all about, you know, why this training is so important and how it had helped him um get back to the hatch in time and and yeah, this therefore was not did not have fatal consequences. So yeah, we definitely take feedback from the astronauts in that sense too.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah. So what sort of behaviours are are they encouraged to practice and to help them stay calm when the stakes are so high?

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, I mean that's a really good question because I'm just thinking about see just bear with me because this when I did the training, it was yeah, a good 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

But I'd I would I would I would I would give you a get-out clause here, Susan, as well, but using in the sense of it doesn't have to be textbook from back then and using all of your experience, and we're using uh uh space as the for this conversation, but with in all of the work that you've done and and and taking it, branching it the umbrella of leadership in general, but uh because pressure's not only um relevant for for astronauts and and leadership is a lot more relevant for people, so yeah, it doesn't have to be pervadum, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, I mean, so the stuff I do now then, thank you for giving me a dev uh get out. Obviously, uh now I you know coach and train people that are on Earth that are never, you know, they work most of them still work in space organizations, but they are not astronauts, they you know build satellites and and things like that. Um, but literally last week in my one of my programs, I was talking to them about stress and stress management. And so, you know, we again it's the all the normal stuff that we talk about, you know, day-to-day, you know, delegating, like you know, looking at kind of the resources that you have. I mean, clearly in the case of Luca, he had the people down on ground, he had the astronauts in the space station. It becomes a lot harder when you can't actually hear them and get their support. So then he really did have to rely on his inner resilience. I will say also he is ex-military um pilot, so he, you know, would have had a lot of um, you know, uh training and experience in very high pressure situations. Uh, and that again, when I said about the selection process to become an astronaut in the first place, you know, um, that's really, really important. Um, but yeah, the kind of stuff I do now in terms of you know, stress down on on earth is similar to, you know, the kind of stuff that you'll be familiar with, as I said, you know, in terms of delegating and having resources and you know, talking through stuff and um making sure you're taking lots of breaks and all that kind of stuff. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Would I by be right in thinking then that for if we take the case of of Luca, but this would be relevant for lots of other people who we're firmly planted here on on ground as well, is that um that it would be the data like you alluded to the day-to-day management of things looking after our own needs that allow us to buy a bit of time or grace or resilience to be able to manage those situations, and as simple as having had the uncomfortable conversation, so it's one last thing on our minds that we've had enough sleep, etc. Would there be truth to that?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, I mean, so much um with the astronauts, like they they are they get so much support, like not only in the training before they go, but when they're on the space station. So you just said there about sleep. So things like sleep and nutrition is not left to them to decide what they want to eat that day or when they're going to bed. I mean, people are um always very interested when you show them just an example of their daily schedule. It literally, like everything to the minute is scheduled, including when they get up, like how long they have to, you know, get dressed and um, you know, brush their teeth and things like that, um, when they eat breakfast at you know all their meal times. I mean, clearly there's a little bit of flexibility, but it really is scheduled to the minute. And then in terms of nutrition and making sure they're eating right, again, we've got loads of you know, doctors before they even go up and nutritionists that will prepare all their meals and make sure they're getting absolutely everything they need. Um, and then when they're on there, they're not left to their own devices, they are talking down to ground all the time, you know, everything that they're doing, the work they're doing. They've got you know procedures step by step, um, as well as the support of the other astronauts on the space station. So, if anything, they have less stress than some people down on Earth that don't have enough resources and people and team and and all the rest of it, to be honest. So they are incredibly well supported.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Do do any of them struggle then after going through such rigorous training processes? And you could almost see and understand why the pinnacle of certain jobs to go out to such an extreme environment to live such a regimented life and then eventually back to a nine to five. Um and yeah, I'm curious if do any of them struggle and what's some of the things they do to to alleviate that or manage that.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah, and the other thing I should also say is um obviously confidential, but they do also have psychological support when they're up there and then when they come down as well. So that was not something I was involved in. I was just involved in the training, but they also have psychologists clearly to support them and their families as well whilst they're away. Um, so definitely when they come back down, I said before, there's a lot of physical rehabilitation because your body changes massively when you're in um uh in zero gravity. So um, so that's one thing. And then yeah, they will have the psychological support, but they also they're not just you know, they don't come down and then right off you go, go and go on a holiday or whatever. They have um when we call them collateral duties, so not straight away, they have to recover, as I said, but they will also have lots of other duties. So it might be helping to train the new astronauts, um, it might be, you know, certainly with Luca, he then went to the um EVA, the spacewalk, you know, department in Houston and he helped doing um doing all the training and things there. So they or they might be Capcom, Eurocom, you know, and be in the ground control um and do some work there. So they are always kind of kept busy, which I think is really important for their psychology as well, um, as well as supported in you know physically and psychologically.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

As a psychologist, can you help us to understand then what sort of again with all of your experience, um what sort of things change within us when when the pressure's on, when we're when we're making decisions, when when we're communicating, and how how we can yeah, ground ourselves um before talking or decision making.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So this is gonna be really boring and simple. Because I have to make quite high uh pressure decisions, and I mean we were talking just before this about kind of um the fact that I do quite a lot of keynote speaking and you know the nerves and that that I still experience every single time. Uh actually, tomorrow I'm going in to speak to my um at my daughter's because it's um uh going in to speak uh at uh to my daughter's school and giving two talks about space. I'm still preparing like mad and feel the pressure. I will still stand in front of that classroom and feel the nerves. Um so uh yeah, so the most simple thing, honestly, and I learned this, this is apparently what firefighters do, is box breathing. So I really think that those it doesn't have to be really complicated. Obviously, in terms of, I mean, if I just use my example of, you know, standing on stage speaking, okay, but pick whatever example. My biggest thing that I say um when I'm helping people with public speaking is you have to prepare. There is absolutely nothing that takes away from preparation. You cannot, like it may look like the best public speakers are really charismatic and they're winging it and they're just you know speaking and all these stories. They have prepared for weeks, like it's very unusual that, you know. So the first thing for astronaut space, you and me, whatever the example is, is preparation. And I mean a lot of preparation. Um, so that's the very first thing. And then it's just a case of, you know, just the normal, natural body, you know, biological, you know, nerves and things like that and anxiety, or in terms of making a decision, the kind of pressure and stress there. So that kind of acute in-the-moment stuff, that's where I think things like box breathing are then really helpful. But box breathing won't take away if you haven't prepared a speech and you've got to stand on stage for an hour. That's not gonna help you, as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah, it's it's preparation um or training or whatever it is that you're, you know, the the kind of pinnacle moment is um preparing you for. And then in that moment, then something simple like box breathing, um, for me anyway, really helps.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that the the as I hear you speak for me, the danger is in over-preparing or trying to perfect it. And it is yeah, it's having an awareness to to know that enough is enough. Deal with what's coming up as as as in. Yeah. So I'm not gonna feel those feelings of nerves giving the talk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah, definitely. But I think, and I mean everyone's different. This is just um, you know, I I as I said, I do a lot of public speaker actually help um support people, you know, training them to do it as well, just because I've spent the last 20 years in front of, you know, people either teaching in a classroom or on stage or whatever it might be. And I think people quite often want to have an easy way out, you know. If I just I mean, everyone used to say, like, imagine the audience naked. I mean, that doesn't work. That doesn't work. Um, or even as I said, with the box breathing, yes, that will help the nerves in the moment, but you've got to prepare beforehand. I am a massive over-preparer, so I totally appreciate where you're coming from that you can be over-prepared. For me, if I massively over-prepare, it means when I stand on that stage, I can not wing it, but like I can add lib, I can bring in a story I wasn't going to, I can crack a joke or whatever it might be. So it's kind of that over-preparation, yes, but then not having to, in this case, stick to like a rigid script or something. It's still very natural because I have all that, you know, structure and preparation um in the background.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah, it's really interesting. I um a quick little story here. I I two of my biggest challenges uh I've decided to explore a couple of years ago, and one of them was public speaking. And there's a quick backstory here that I wet myself on stage in front of the whole school and all the parents at 10 years of age and dark grey jeans, so there was nowhere to hide. So public speaking didn't come easy, but I thought, yeah, I thought, fuck it, I'm gonna explore this. Um, and so I did. I started uh in a public speaking group, and um recently it was competition phase, and we moved up from one level to the next. And in the competition, with there wasn't the room wasn't packed, it was maybe about 50 people there. My mind just went womp blank. Five five minutes into the speech, I had five to seven minutes to give, and I knew I was close to the end, and I couldn't, I it just it just went. It just went. What was really interesting for me is to be able to feel this panic, but it was in the soles of my feet, it did not come up, and and and I I looked around the room at the competitors and judges, I smiled to myself, I closed my eyes, um, and then I remembered, oh yeah, of course, I finished my speech. I need to close it because I had a prop. I I went to my prop. But the biggest the distinction here is um yeah, to separate myself from what I what was happening, as in uh failing or uh going silent or or you know losing points on the speech is a really interesting, um, yeah, really interesting experience to make that mistake in front of people and not have the weight of it or the judgment of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, yeah. So do you think that was something you were kind of like thinking about, or did you you said you shut your eyes? Like, what do you think kind of brought you back to remember what you were doing?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Great question. I it was looking around, it was it was having a sense of yeah, that panic didn't overwhelm me. I decided just to stay present, see what comes up. And I looked around, closed my eyes. I was I was searching for where to go, and when I opened my mind, oh I looked around and I saw my prop next to me, which is a sand timer, and I thought that was that was my next cue. I'd finished the speech. That's why I couldn't think of anything else to say. You're just going on to the closing out part. Um, so yeah, maybe overthinking, maybe I lost my presence for a moment, yeah, um, and was thinking something, what's next? Yeah, and it didn't come, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

I mean, specifically with public speaking, I always say like it is take a breath, like people often say, like, just have a drink of water or whatever. I feel like if I kind of come out of myself and suddenly think, oh my god, I'm standing on stage and there's all these people, that's what makes me kind of lose it. So yeah, it's kind of like just staying in the moment for me anyway, and just taking a breath. And I mean, people always say like silence is fine, like as long as it doesn't go on forever. Yeah, yeah, no, it's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

I think the only what made this different, it was a competition though, you know. So um, but at the same time it didn't, and that's exactly how it was meant to happen for me. So it was a great, it was a great challenge to have early on, and that's something that probably won't happen again.

Problem Solving Curiosity Creativity And AI

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah. I mean, if I can give um a uh personal story as well, not public speaking, but you were asking about kind of decision making and kind of pressure in the moment. So I actually I said I have my pilot's license. I don't think I told you. I actually had an accident myself um during my flight test when I was 17. So um, I mean, those people that know that I it was a carburetor heat failure, but I was basically, it was a technical failure. I was one of the things you have to do. It's a flight test is like a driving test, you know, for to get your license. Um, and one of the last I'd gone off and I'd done all the things I had to do. I had the examiner with me, and then the last kind of things you have to do is come in and do different types of landing. And one of them is a power-off, like glide approach. And so I was coming in and um so literally had the engines off and had to glide in to land, and I thought, I think we're too low. I'm going to go around, which is perfectly acceptable thing to do. Um, put the throttle back up, and nothing happened. So the engine never came back on, and the threshold that the kind of start of the runway had a lot of trees there. And so we actually, I mean, we because we were gliding in, we you know, were uh gliding into the runway, and um it the uh tree like clipped the side of the wing and we spun around and um crashed into the field before the runway. Now, like I think about this now quite a lot. I think at the time I don't really think I thought about it. So I think because of all that like preparation and training, and obviously I was literally like at my most kind of proficient, or not experienced, but kind of proficient in terms of you know what I had to do for that particular scenario, right? Because, you know, if I got my license as I have 20 years ago, I probably never would have come across that experience, but because every all that training was like right there, it kind of came, you know, it was kind of a very natural, easy decision. Do you know what I mean? I I don't feel like I was making decisions, it was all just happening like almost automatically. That's the word, not naturally, it wasn't very natural, but automatically these things will happen, like the procedures we were going through. Obviously, I had the examiner there, you know, the kind of steps that we did. Um, and actually, even when we were, we were both perfectly fine, by the way. Um and even when we were in the the field, you know, uh next to the aircraft before the ambulance arrived, there were some horses in the field, and they kind of came up, like, what's going on here? I mean the examiner were kind of you know joking, um, and all the rest of it, like, you know, um, about these horses. And it wasn't until the ambulance arrived, and obviously they're like, God, plane crash, Jesus, you know, get us on the spine boards, you know, all the rest of it, and took us off to hospital. Then I was like, oh my God, you know, that was when I actually um the sort of not panic, but the kind of enormity of it kind of kicked in. Um, so that's why I always say about like, yeah, sort of preparation for for things, like, you know, then for me at least in that situation, it did kind of the the steps came almost automatically. I certainly don't remember panicking. I don't remember panicking in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Um yeah, yeah, fascinating. I I I I wonder if you speak much about this, Susan, in the sense of the but when something happens, when there's something to do, it's almost a way of dissipating the that emotion.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah, absolutely. I often say this about different uh things when I'm coaching people, and this is very much me, so I'm not saying it happens to everyone. I like to be in control of things, and I think when I feel out of control, that's when I feel the most stress and uh unease. So in that situation, as much as you could say, Oh my god, you were having a plane crash, like I I wasn't, and like I still had control, there were still things I could do, there were still steps I could take. Um, and as I said, actually, all things considered, you know, in that particular situation, yeah, the plane wasn't great, but you know, me and the examiner were were fine. So, because there were certain steps, you know, this is what you do in an emergency, this is who you call, this is, you know, what you do with your hands kind of thing. For me, it's when there's situation maybe I'm not, you know, saying it is, but maybe with Luca, the same thing. Like, okay, it was not a great situation whatsoever that he had water filling his helmet, but he knew what he had to do. He had to retrace his steps, he had to talk to ground control even though he couldn't hear them, he knew his way back to the airlock, you know, he was tethered to the station, etc. So I said, I'm not saying that's what went through Luca's mind. I need to ask him, but um I think it's when you're feeling out of control or you don't have kind of steps to do, that's maybe when sort of the real panic might set in, the real anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, that's really interesting. It goes for me, what I'm hearing for myself is the preparation. So it's almost not not just best case scenario, it's it's all of them as well. So there's something to do, an action to take to follow it up.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Exactly. I mean that kind of goes back to the the human factor stuff we were talking about, right? Like if you've got the procedures, you've got the system, you've got the you know, redundancy, the resilience, whatever it is, and the same with humans, you know, if you've got that resilience or you know, those systems in your in place in your in your head in this case, then um you're gonna get a better outcome, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah, we'd like to think so. Yeah. Um talking about problem solving, um, again, across your whole career, Susan, what is it that you've learned about problem solving from different organizations and and how diversity and yeah, different opinions can can help bring things to the table there?

SPEAKER_01 40:47

So I'm really glad you brought this up because I can say I don't know. I can tell you everything I I do know, but this is something that I'm actually really like um investigating at the moment because I think it's really, really interesting topic. I think if you look at like you can you can look at sort of different models for problem solving and all this kind of stuff and read some books on it, but like how I I will actually ask you, this is a rhetorical question, but I will ask you like how do you solve problems? So for me, the best way if I have a problem, I go over and over and over it, I talk through it, I go for a walk, da da da. And then it'll be when I'm not thinking about it, when I'm like, and often when my hands are busy, so like if I'm gardening or something like that, when I'm not thinking about it, that's when I solve a problem. And the more I kind of looked into this, that's what I found is that when people like you go really, really sort of deep on the subject, you do loads of research in it, da da da. And then it's when you kind of come out and think more like about completely different things or do something completely different, that that's quite often when you kind of then have your best ideas or solve a problem. So I became quite interested in this. Um, so last year I did a TEDx talk, and we were kind of trying to like, I only had 10 minutes to talk, and I had so much to talk about, as you can tell, this podcast. And uh the curator kept saying, Yeah, but what's you know, just pick one thing, like what are you really interested in? And I said, Well, I'm really interested in this, but I just like I don't have like the answer. Like, how do people solve problems? Um, but anyway, I gave it a good go and I was just I started thinking about so I have two young children and I was thinking about them and like how do children solve problems, or do they even see things as problems, or do they just, you know, they're so curious, they just keep investigating, don't they? So this is kind of just my personal, not rant, but um, thoughts at the moment, is particularly like with uh certain education systems and the way that children are being taught, you know, in these very like specific silos and subjects and things, that maybe that's not actually very helpful in them thinking kind of very creatively. They're quite intuitive in this, aren't they? They're very curious, they want to know things, you know. Um so yeah, it's something that, as I said, I don't have like the answer to. I don't I couldn't tell you how to solve a problem. I think it's really interesting. I also think it's very um interesting because again, with AI, everyone's talking about it, everyone keeps, you know, at least asking me, like, okay, what can humans do that AI can't, and vice versa, and all the rest of it. And I think, you know, maybe this is the thing. You can certainly talk to whatever your AI of choice is um about certain problems, but can it actually solve a problem? Can it actually be creative about you know these kind of challenges that humans have? So yeah, I I it's a real interest and passion of mine, but I don't have like a set answer.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I don't I don't think there's a set answer though, that's the whole point, isn't it? Um it's such a such an interesting such an interesting uh way of framing it. But I think that there's a few things that stand out to me and I thought firstly is how we language it, how we describe this problem, situation, challenge, opportunity. I think it's is Quite big for me. When I hear you talk about your kids, there's a sense of play. So yeah, they definitely this isn't this isn't a croc or shite. It's just it's just something to do or to to play around around. How can we play around this? And for me personally, though, as you ask me that, how do I go around go around? Um, I think there's a there's an intentionality to creating space for myself, and a lot of it, like you said, when you're busy with your hands, that for me that will be dropping out of my head and thinking, which is often quite limited. Um, and and so there's a certain knowing, yeah, and giving that yeah, that inner wisdom a chance to speak or or a creative idea, and it's not usually for me coming from thinking about it over and over and again with this limited bandwidth. It's taking some action, like we just talked about. This podcast is B minus. I I I'm not judging it, and then I go again.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Um, yeah, absolutely. And I realize this though, the other place where I get great ideas is in the shower. And I was talking to a friend because I said lived out in Germany when I was at Issa, um, and she's German, and she was talking about something else, and they actually have uh it's called a Dusche moment, and that's really bad German, but like literally a shower moment. Um you know, so it's clearly a very well-known phenomenon, isn't it? That when we're not thinking about it so deeply, that's when we might have some inspiration. And I also yeah, really come back to I keep calling it, I call it problem solving just because that's the kind of term that we were, you know, that I've had, you know, uh handed down for years, but I don't see it necessarily as a problem. I like the fact you said opportunity or like just creating ideas. I don't know about you, uh, you're an entrepreneur as well. Like I have a hundred ideas a day, like, but you know, uh can't can't uh put them all into action. So I think it's really yeah interesting. I don't I don't see it as a problem to solve. I just see it as you know, new opportunities and ideas and ways um to around things.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

I I had a friend of mine come onto the podcast and talk about these sorts of things, but from a creative perspective, and yeah, that was really interesting. Some of the things that that he does or encourages his clients to do to yeah bring a different aspect or dimension to these things that they're facing, and and some of the stories as well that he's told of other well-known um yeah, business coaches, etc. Doing uh the playing. I I can't remember, I might be getting this completely wrong, but Nike, uh one of their the guys came in and they're playing touch, literally like tag outside with the ties off, you know, just to step outside of the norm and yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

I mean, there's a whole thing with um Lego play at the moment, or not even at the moment, I think it's been going on for years, right? You know, to get and there's a whole um I I haven't done it, but you know, like training and stuff where they'll go into you know very corporate environments and get them to do all these different scenarios with Lego because exactly that. I mean, I it is the language around it, I don't think it's problem solving, but if I say creativity to most people, myself included, a couple of years ago, you'd think like I'm not at all arty or creative in that sense. So I think that puts off at least certainly my clients who are very uh technical and scientific. Um, but I totally agree. I think it's when you're doing kind of different things that um or creative things that it can really help with the yeah, with with this this idea.

Closing Thoughts And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Love it. Susan, I'm I'm I'm curious to know if there's anything that we've not talked about that you'd like to mention as we as we start to round out our conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

I don't think so, because as I said, my you've asked me the question about problem solving, which is probably the biggest passion and thing that I'm looking at at the moment. Um so no, I don't think there is anything particular. I'll probably think of lots of things after we've said goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

It's an excuse for another uh conversation.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Brilliant. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Well, thank you very much for your time, Susan. I appreciate that. Um fascinating career, really interesting to to to have your perspective on on something that we don't get to get sighted on every day in terms of the training that you provide for such interesting um people and organizations. So yeah, I'll put the in the show notes where people can get in touch. But yeah, thanks once again, and um definitely some things to think about as I step away from today's conversation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Yeah, well, thank you, Ron. And I was uh what I should say maybe is that if organizations are interested in hearing more than I do, um do keynote speaking for organisations on you know the different human performance and behaviour in space and kind of how that's changed over the years and how that will change again in the future, uh, and is relevant to organisations now. So, yeah, if anyone wants to get in touch, then if you've got my website in the show notes, that would be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Done deal. Awesome. Cheers, Susan, have a great day.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Cheers, thanks.