S3 Ep102 Helen Lunnon-Wood: Transition Series #1

You can plan the exit date, but you cannot schedule who you become afterwards. Aaron Hill sits down with Helen London Wood, former RAF fast jet pilot and founder of High Flight Coaching, to talk honestly about transition as a living process that keeps evolving long after the uniform is handed back. We get into what it feels like when structure vanishes, when identity suddenly becomes a question again, and when you realise you have been “fitting in” rather than truly belonging. 

Helen shares the jolt of the first month without a military pay cheque and the deeper identity story underneath it: independence, self-worth, and the weight of feeling “dependent”.  Aaron brings a different perspective from leaving earlier in a career and living far from people who share the same background, including the loneliness that can sit beneath achievement. Together, we explore why operational cultures are brilliant at performance feedback yet can leave little room for deeper reflection, and why that gap often shows up during military to civilian transition, career change, or any major life pivot. 

We unpack the triathlon model of transition: pause, remove what no longer serves, take what you truly need, then move into the next leg with intention. We talk about micro-decompression rituals between meetings, the power of commute time as a psychological reset, and how to find community when you feel isolated. If you are navigating leadership under pressure, veteran reintegration, or a big role change, this conversation offers language, reassurance, and tools you can use immediately. 

Subscribe for the next part of the series, share this with someone mid-transition, and leave a review so more people can find it. What part of transition are you in right now?

Find Helen on LinkedIn or via her website.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Transition Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Fortune Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. We're counting down. Last time I remember what is it, you said. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

We are things are harder to believe than others.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Today on Forge and Resilience, I'm joined by Helen London Wood. Helen's a former RAF fast jet pilot who served for over two decades. After leaving the military, she founded Hype Flight Coaching, where she combines psychology, aviation, human factors, insights, and coaching to support leaders, pilots, veterans, navigating high pressure environments and major life transitions. Helen, welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

It's good to be back.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Likewise. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I did so well last time. I did so well last time we decided to invit him back.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Obviously. Obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah, yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Or is it round two? No.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm very slightly nervous either way.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Me too. Me too. But I'm really excited for this because the reason we're having this conversation again for the listeners, or again, the reason we're having another conversation is of an idea that we had through our many conversations about what might a conversation, joint conversation around our experiences look like, and what if it is going to be around transition? Um so yeah, I'm really excited. This is the first of three recordings that we will that will explore transition, potentially from leaving the military, but also lots of relevant stories, insights, and points for people that are going through transition and change what whatever their environment. So yeah, I'm really excited to get this on the road.

Helen’s First Year Out

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Well, and to to kick it off, you have left um the the forces now for just over a year, and I I'm curious how that transition period has gone for you.

Erin’s Different Kind Of Exit

SPEAKER_00 2:26

So with it that is a massive question, isn't it? And and I think I think with anyone who is contemplating any kind of change, um, big change, there are so many layers to it. For my for for me, the transition refers to leaving the military and joining civilian life. Having never really been an adult in civilian life, I joined quite joined the military very young. Um and my version of transition is is a couple of things that others might not have uh in that um it was a chosen, it was a choice to leave, it was chosen, um, which others won't have, but I um feel lucky that I was able to have the choice. Um and it's been a while coming. It had been a while coming. It really it had been in the back of my head for a long time. It started really surfacing in 2022, and ever since then it's kind of been a how do I do it, not should I do it. And how is it now? I've been out, I I left 10th of January 2025. You I I imagine most people remember the day. Um so just over a year, and and it continues, it continues. Um and I'm sure we'll get into the different reasons why it continues, but it's I don't think it'll ever really truly complete. I don't think it's a it's got an end as such. I think it's a shade of change rather than a move to an end state. But um I'm personally enjoying it. For me, it was the right decision. And there's lots of things I reflect on now. I look back and go, I would have done that slightly differently. I wish I'd known that then, or and a variety of other sort of commentaries about that, but it it's going in the right direction. I'm enjoying it and I don't regret it. It doesn't mean there aren't bits I I don't miss, but there are definitely bits I miss. How much of that is similar to your version of this?

SPEAKER_02 4:48

No. And so begin if the competition very, very different experience. Um I also mine was an active choice to step away uh from the military, and and I left uh very junior, so I only did 10 years um before deciding, yeah, mine my I finished playing this game now. Um so yeah, it was a very different choice, um, I guess. So it wasn't coming towards the end of a career or anything. It wasn't most people don't leave my my organization or the organization I was working for um at that stage, so that was fine. But I think it's really interesting that it continues to change, but me as a person, not my transition, uh it's something we've talked about before, is that I never felt particularly part of the military, and interestingly, maybe that I've since subsequently learned about myself is because I didn't feel like I belonged there anyway. I didn't feel like I was good enough to the courses that I did. Um I could have until recently convinced you that I'd fluked my way through them. It was an accident, clerical oversight, blah, blah, blah. Uh so yeah, I didn't thought, well, I don't, I I don't identify, for example, as a veteran. We've talked about this, that's not something that that I identify as. Um, it's not words that I use to describe myself. Um, I am not entangled around that. Yet now, grounded from where from a place of love, um, calm, I can say I'm really proud of what I achieved. Um, really proud of what I achieved. And I, if I'm honest, continue to un ununtangle the meaning that I gave my time there, um, and and all the lessons that that that come from that. So um, but yeah, I live in a different country, hundreds of miles away from anybody that has had similar experiences, um, and I don't talk about it that often with people. Um and that was over 15 years ago. So yeah, there's lot lots of lots of differences, which I guess is the the beauty and the depth of this conversation.

Fitting In Versus Belonging

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah. Do you know what it what's really interesting is you used um a phrase then that I use quite a bit, and it's um I think you said fitting in. I never felt like you know, that idea of you left maybe because you you didn't feel it was a fit. And there's um there's there's the idea of I use the idea of fitting in and belonging, and the fitting in is um where you cut bits of yourself off to be part of the group. And belonging is where the group makes adjustments or or embraces who you are. Um and that's a really interesting one. I mean, Brene Brown does a load on it. There's a Buddha on it, and he he did the original. Um, so there's loads in there about that idea of fitting in, and the closest I got to leaving fairly on in my career was when I was fitting in or trying to trying to fit in, not succeeding, and going, you know what, my sanity is worth more. Like I am worth more than fitting into this. And the places where I felt most at home in the military were the places where I felt real belonging, where I was embraced, I was accepted, actually, my you know, my expertise was valued, that it was a team, not a group, all of those good words. So it's really interesting that that fitting in belonging thing becomes part of the conversation about whether it's did is that enable did that enable a your momentum? Well, did that cause the momentum for you to leave? And would it have done the same with me if fitting in had been a long a more drawn-out thing? For me, it lasted about a year where I really wasn't comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Yeah, great question. I d I don't know. I think I wouldn't have had the maturity or the the wisdom to be able to see that at that age. Um and it's not until I started to get coaching that I realised I've been trying to fit in all my life. In fact, I was working in a commercial gym just down the road, speaking my second language as a personal trainer, hating it, absolutely hating it. Um, and some of the people I worked with, and most of the clients in the gym in the gym, and it wasn't through coaching that I saw that it was this was my way of seeing the world, that I saw I didn't belong, so I was almost picking fights and and looking for differences with people rather than the similarities. And it wasn't until only a few weeks of coaching that I I completely spun the the or completely flipped the the script, as it were, and and yeah, I thought, oh wow, yeah, I've I've been trying to fit in. No, looking for all the differences actually. I I feel like I belong, and and that started off with me. How do I what what can I recognize myself for? Um and and yeah, that and I went on to go and feel like I owned that gym. I was almost sad to walk away when I decided to pack it in. And I still bump into people in town that I know from the gym and call each other by the first names, you know. So yeah, I'm I'm not sure I'd have had the the capacity to do anything different uh there uh in in my mid-early twenties um who'd put this job on a on a pinnacle, as I'm sure you probably had to an extent with.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think there's a there's a you know, in your 20s, you're kind of like, yeah, life's great, you know, it's exciting, it's busy, you want so well I did from the military, I wanted independence, excitement, travel, I'm gonna go and do some cool stuff. I'm gonna think I'm pretty cool, by the way. And then as you kind of um myself believe. And then actually, as you get I got older and into my 30s and started asking some of the more challenging questions of myself. You know, who who who do I actually want to be? Where where does this career take me? Where do I want it to take me? Where is it going? That sort of I think it become more more deliberately reflective. I don't think I was reflective at all in my twenties. I mean, don't get me wrong, debrief feedback, that kind of thing, yes. Deep reflection, probably not.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Do you do you think that was because that's just not encouraged in those environments? That deep reflective practice.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

I think um Yeah, I think the people I I I don't think oh that's a massive, another massive question. So I think it's probably getting there and getting better. I do think the younger generations who are coming through are much better at self-reflection from an earlier age. That's probably because I wonder whether it's because they've been given the language and the social permissions to be reflective. Whereas and because they've got those, the language and the social permissions, they have then practiced it so they get better at it, so so virtuous circle. I think when I was in going through, you know, foster training and then onto the front line, you know, at the end of the day, our job is to go out there and be pretty destructive, uh, whether that be of people or property, that you know, that was our job. So there was a mask that we put on to get through it, to do it. Some people didn't take that mask off, I don't think. Some people might not have realized they could take the mask off, didn't he? Um, but equal so so there was a social acceptance that wasn't there about deep self-analysis or um, and there was also the so the language and the practice wasn't there either. But also there was a bit of, well, we we do debrief, we like tell ourselves what we got wrong and what we can do better next time. How can I be a better fighter pilot tomorrow? That is great and really good stuff, and we got well practiced at that. But it would have been in within the context to be a fast jet pilot, not necessarily into that deep identity-driven spiritual or psychological reflection driving, driving along. Maybe I can't I can't really put the words into it, but maybe we use feedback and debriefs as a cover for not doing the really hard personal work.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I I also question that when you're in certain environments doing a certain job, like yours, potentially like mine as well, that is that the time and the space, uh is that the time and the place to be asking those questions? I'm not sure, given the destructive nature or yeah, potential destructive nature of our work.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I and yeah, I think there is a de a sense of to what end would you be doing it at that point? You know, um, and therefore, is it I get the phrase wrong phraseology wrong, but is it best not to do it right now? Maybe that's something to go and contemplate a neighbor with at the age of 35 with a beer on the far side of having done it all. And certainly my self-reflection didn't only really started uh maybe early 30s when I was in a place I didn't wasn't happy in why. I needed to answer the why wasn't I comfortable there. Um and that took a lot to go through it. But uh it yeah, so it's a really tricky one to to figure out when the right time to do it.

unknown 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

And how to do it safely.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Yeah, I think that'd be different for different people, but I do I I I think it's whilst the military do lots of great things, they do lots of things that can be improved on, let's put it like that. And for me, one of them that I'm learning through an organization that I get to do is a bit of work with uh supporting veterans saver warrior is is closing the loop on all of those things. And to me, that's when those some of those questions start to get asked and more importantly, answered, knowing that that answer can change as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah. Um and in some ways, what the military, you know, if you go into transactional analysis or anything like that, you know, the military in some ways needs you to stay in a childlike state so they can send you to wars, they can get you to do stuff and all that.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

100%.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Rather than get you into the adult space. They'll get you there eventually, but maybe not at the point where they need you to be the war fighter.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

I don't have all the right answers.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

No, neither do I, but in my experience, from where I'm sat today, that's how I would choose to look at it. That's the story I'd tell. Yeah.

Structure Ends After Service

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Yeah, really interesting. What what it brings me back actually to to if you talk about transition, I do quite a bit of work with Icarus, which is a charity supporting veterans who veterans and their families have got challenges. And one of the things I'm going to say about the people we support is that when they come out from the military into real life, civilian life, whatever euphemism you want to call it, um, one of the struct one of the things that they're lacking is structure. And some of them, not all of them, but some of them are still quite childlike in their you know, they're looking for someone to tell them what to do and how to be and what and and they haven't had the opportunity, they they might have joined very young, or uh, but throughout their military career they've always had someone rank above, older, more experienced, whatever. And the military has provided the structure, provided everything they need. And so when they come out in and transition into civilian life, there's still this childlike quality to them, which is both endearing and disabling for them. Do you think that to be honest, there was there was bits of that for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, yeah, me too, definitely. And and I'm curious, is that one of the things potentially that that the military misses in in helping transition away?

Meeting Your Younger Self Again

SPEAKER_00 17:50

I think um I think it goes back to everyone's experiences different. From my experience of transitioning, uh transitioning from military civilian life, we had at the time uh we had the career transition partnership and the support around that kind of structure. But it was very much set around practicalities of CV writing, how do you network, um, how do you apply for jobs, um, these kind of things. It wasn't as much in the space of it's on you now, like especially like I went into business on my own, right? So I didn't move to another large organization that will, you know, pay my income tax for me and and give me my IT and that kind of stuff. So um personally, the the career transition partnership and the transition support provided by the military, as far as it went, it was okay. It just didn't really go very far um beyond practical career challenges, but it is called career transition partnership, not life transition partnership. So there's a bit in there that I don't think it hits all the right marks. And what like, for example, the our conversations have been one of the first that I've really had, where we've talked about the the layers of transition that include your identity transition, your generational transition if you've you've come from a forces family, your cultural transition, your mental health transition, all of these layers which transition the provision of career transition doesn't accommodate, but then the name isn't implies that it won't. It's it's not for me, it wasn't a great experience.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah. So what what have you learnt about yourself and your identity since untwang untwangling?

What To Carry Into The Next Role

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Untwangling? That's a good one. We'll call it that. Untwangling yourself in the military. Yeah, we'll keep it that way. Um, do you know there's so much? There was I I was listening to a lady called Derwin Young, and I know I've quoted this to you before. Um, Derwin Young, she was in the US Air Force, she was a captain in the US Air Force, and she'd come up through the ranks. Uh, I think she was originally enlisted. Um, and she when she left the Air Force, uh, she became uh she went into psychology, became a therapist. Um and um her quote is when I left the air force, I met my 17-year-old self at the gate. And I remember hearing that, and I was like, oh my god, that's it. That's because that that's exactly what's happened is the bits I had to shed of me going into the air force, the bits that wouldn't have fitted, that that I didn't need and all that, got left behind. I'm kind of forgotten about, kind of like I have not needed to bring that person back. But there was also good bits that I left behind. Like as a as a female, you there's a whole identity question mark as you go in, as you're going through, as you leave. And part of that is my identity in some ways, uh my femininity I left behind. Don't work, you know, you can't be a feminine fighter pilot does not work. Because the word feminine is linked to soft and gentle and pink and fluffy. That's absolutely not what females necessarily are, but the word feminine is linked to that. And so you leave that birthday behind. And when you leave the Air Force 27 27 years later, you have to go and renegotiate your identity with that 17-year-old who's waiting at the gate for you. And I'm still doing that. She's quite interesting. I quite like her. I've missed a bit, I've missed bits of that. Mm-hmm. Definitely. I haven't quite gone the rebellious route. Some of my friends who left the Air Force were like, I'm gonna dye my hair pink. I'm gonna, you know, they go through a physical reincarnation as well because they've spent and it goes back to that parent child, you've had the parent service tell you for years, your hair has to be this, you know, uh you know, y for guys, you know, short back and sides, girls it's gotta be tied back, you know, not too many earrings, not not too much nail colour, that's Slightly changing. And you know, tattoos used to not be visible and all this kind of stuff. And all of that is about your identity kind of being suppressed as you're in the military. So when you come out of the military, this idea of rediscovering who you are and your identity becomes quite a live conversation. And some people I think really struggle with that. And you see them go and be and move from something that was military to something that kind of looks like a military. And it might be like a company that's like a mini version of the military, like lots of military people, might have a uniform, dah dah dah da. And I'm not saying that's wrong. It's just a negotiation of your identity as you're going on and how are you managing it and what you're doing with it. But it's a huge bit of it.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah, I'm I'm curious in the work that you've done with with other leaders as well, the parallels that there might be between their transitions and some of the layers of identity that they discover about themselves, like from one job to the next, from a relationship to the next, from one sector to the next. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Do you know what? Yeah. That's really interesting. So I've got um a friend of ours uh is is about to leave um a public service job. He's quite high up in the public service. Um and he's going through that at the moment. And I was chatting to him on Saturday night about, you know, how this idea of reintegration and all that, and he's not in the military, he's he's nothing to do with the military. But the things he's talking about are the that kind of same thing of, but I've been in this place, this organization for 15 years, 20 years, I've grown through it, it I've embodied what that organization is, and now I have to go into another organization. Do I what do I take with me from that previous organization? What should I leave behind? And one of the things, you know, even true when you're leaving the military, for example, like I'm quite like exantic about people's timing. Like if you keep me hanging around for 10 minutes, 15 minutes after we say I mean both of us, like for this, like hack if we were there. But that doesn't necessarily lead through into my encounters in civilian life. Um and I find that deeply frustrating, but others who I'm meeting are like, oh, you know, it's within half an hour, count that as a win. What?

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

And so what do you take with you from any organization from Emmy Job into the next one?

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah, yeah. I I think what what comes up for me as I listen to you speak there is the story that we tell ourselves about certain things. So for me, the story that I'd be telling myself if somebody turned up late would be that they don't respect me or my time.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

But to counteract that, I said, is that true? Well, maybe not. I've got no idea. And even if they do give it the thumbs up, as in that's all right, it's within the window.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Triathlon Model Of Transition

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Um, yeah, so it's questionable stories, yeah. Um but I think on the flip side, when I'm late, here's the tell tale. The flip side is when I'm late and I've been late um on one of our calls, and there's a flurry of apologetic messages from me to you because why the story that I was telling myself, and and I could catch those, but it that was really interesting because that that's been ingrained through through the culture. And what I think is really interesting as well is I was I was working with a guy um who was transitioning from uh an organization to another one. Um, and yeah, he I love this, and I I've grasped this for myself and talked about like the transitions that happen in triathlon. Uh, he he'd done triathlon because I've done a little bit, this really resonated for me. So it's like on the long-distance triathlons where the swim can be 3.8 kilometers long. For the next, you have a you you once you get into the the body of water, do the swim, get back out. There's a route that you follow back into the tent or or area, transition area, where you can take equipment off, put equipment on, refuel if you need to, or sun cream if you need to, and before you go to the next leg. And and it's really impactful for me is like, do I need the the wetsuit on a 180 mile mile cycle in in the 25 degree sun? Probably not. And if I blast from one thing to the next without pausing, without just slowing down for a little bit, it might it might sound or feel counterproductive because I'm taking my time, but it's like you what you alluded to. You can start to let go of certain things or even catch them, those stories before we go on to the next. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

So I right what you what I picked up from what you just said about that's a because that's a really good analogy, the transition between I hadn't I don't do try um trathons, so but that's a really good analogy of I'm coming out of the, you know, the pool or the the lake or the sea or whatever, whatever it is, and I've got this amount and I know what I'm going on to next. Um, and I know there's gonna be some bits I need to take with me, and I should take with me. But actually there's also a deliberateness in, and I think it's that deliberateness that I've picked up on is be very deliberate about what that transition event moment is, so that you're set up in the right way, rather than this is just something I have to get through to get on the bike. It's it's a I need to think, practice, be deliberate about that transition event in and of itself, out with a good swim and a good cycle and a good run, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Yeah, big time. And I think you've alluded to it there is the practice element of it. If we're only practicing transition when the when when we're back's against the wall, I I I yeah, there's other things that we're gonna miss. However, and again we've talked about this after certain calls, after certain days, I will practice mini transitions. I might sit here for one or two minutes before I go to the next thing. That might look like going downstairs to the gym for a couple of kettlebell swings, or walking the long way to the school to pick the kids up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or walking the long way around the house when the kids are here because yeah, I I I'm carrying work stuff to the kids, or the kids, you know. Um, yeah.

Commutes As Decompression Time

SPEAKER_00 28:52

It's a sense, so so in a way, that's like decompression, isn't it? It's like a mini decompression from whatever it is. And we used to do it from big events like ops or whatever. Um, but it's interesting because my husband was on uh flew the was on the Reaper Force in two different places, and in one place getting home was like took like five minutes. And he'd go from work and be at home and you know, eating dinner or watching tele or work, you know, with the kids or whatever very quickly. And in the other place, it took him about 45 minutes to an hour to drive home. And he always credits that that longer commute with a generally healthier mindset day in, day out, because on the way there, he was in that preparation phase. You know, he'd left home, he'd left the kids and me and the dog and blah, but was now like putting the mask on, I hear the warrior, and the warrior, but but he would put the mask on in the car, not like in our kitchen. And on the way home, he was taking the mask off for 45 minutes, putting it in the backseat, and driving home. And by the time we got home, it was dad, it was husband, you know. And there's that idea of deliberate transition in there again. I've never made that link. That's really interesting. Really interesting, right? There's a del but the deliberateness of it and allowing for the right amount of time, um, which is I think goes back to when we're talking about career transition, is how do people do it with if it's if it's a chosen course, because there's a non-choice, you know, medical discharge or whatever that is different. Albeit once it's in play, once it's happening, there's a deliberateness of I think there's a bit in there about your self-control, your ability to control what you can control, influence what you can influence, let go of the rest, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely. And and I love the 45-minute analogy, but sometimes five minutes is all we've got.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

And so often it's very easy to brush it aside. But actually, yeah, even if something is a few breaths, um yeah, sometimes I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Or just to step outside, step back inside, you know, making a deliberate difference in that space.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah, big time. You know, some not often, but sometimes on my group coaching calls, like, right, you've got three minutes, do what you need to do. Uh this is in their time, you know. Sometimes I will guide them on a breath, uh, a few minutes breath work, sometimes that'll be squats, they'll go disappear and do a stretch, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

You know, because they otherwise they'll just your group coaching calls are very different from my group coaching calls.

Support Networks And Identity Layers

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Maybe you come along one day. In fact, I get yeah, I got an idea I've penciled, I just posted to them actually, who would you love to talk to? And there's a couple of people on my list. You're on that list, by the way. So yeah, I can't remember where it was going that. But yeah, so so that otherwise they will bounce from one call to my group coaching call to the next call to lunch, you know, and I I get it, life happens, so um, it's just a way of helping show the uh uh potentially a different way. Um some people find it beneficial, some people think people think it's bollocks, and I'm good with both.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah, right, and and the thing is, all you can do, I mean, they have to figure out why. But you know, figure out why. But it's really interesting in terms of when we talk about transition from the from military to civilian in our case, because that's our experience, right? But that deliberate sense of reflection actually making time for it before you go. Um and it's the same with I'm I'm working with someone who's who's recently moved into a new job, um, and what what you think you're gonna go into versus you know what you actually happens in as you go, you know, and the first six weeks, which are always like, oh my god, and then coming back to it six months on, you go, well, what is it really like now compared to what I thought it was gonna be? Where am I lacking? Where am I winning? Is it you know what's better, what's it it it's kind of a fascinating journey, and I think if people can deliberately self-reflect, they they stand a better chance of getting through it in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Yeah, I I I would agree, and and I think an important point here for me though is to reflect that I this doesn't come naturally to most of us. Um it's not something that I was taught, and so there's there's an there's an element of support that I think is very beneficial, and that that that's something we've discussed as well in our own transitions of outside help and support. So there's there's there's our friends and family and relationships, yeah, but there's also the the slightly wider circle for a varied depth of and experience and not to try and do these these things alone on the surface, like like we've alluded to, that potentially just seems like a changing of uniform. However, there's many different layers, and some of them go very, very deep.

Money Loneliness And Finding Your Tribe

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Um Yeah, and and you know, if you if you just even go like one or two layers deep, you're talking about perhaps not living on the patch anymore, for example, as an example. So geographically you relocate yourself somewhere, and it might be somewhere you know, but it might not be, and it might be something you go, there's no support around me. No one here knows anyone in the military. You know, I've got no one to lean on to who understands. And you can end up isolated geographically, you know, geographically could be a difficult choice for people, and it just and and then professionally, you know, are you going into your own business like we did? You know, so you're actually quite isolated um just day to day, so there's a loneliness in there, or are you going into this big amorphous country um company where you become just another garner soup, you know, or or how do you where is that sense of community and support around you? And that's I think where veterans' charities are can can step in and really be part of that conversation. But a lot of people think, oh well, I'm not struggling with mental heart, I won't go to veterans' charity. And actually, there's loads of great charities out there and great support out there for people who are you know just becoming veterans, and we need to talk about the veteran word, but who who might need that kind of idea of structure and support because it's just not working for them at the moment, or they haven't got someone around people around them to help them.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah. I'm I'm I'm curious, and if there's nothing that springs to mind, or you need to reflect, and I'm happy to take this question as well. But um what what has been your biggest challenge, like the the the rock in the path, as it were, for you that you're happy to talk about in in terms of the obstacles to stepping away and in transition?

SPEAKER_00 35:58

There have been there's been lots. There's been lots. What are the big biggest obstacles? Um month one was oh, I've had twenty-seven years of a paycheck arriving every month and whilst I'm lucky enough to have a pension from the military service, um that's it's not the same size, and it arrives on a different day of the month, you know, just because when I left presses, we we always get paid at the end of the month. And so for the first time in February last year, there was no paycheck at the end of the month. And you suddenly go, Oh my god, this is now what this is the new normal, and naturally that was quite a and finance is always tricky for people, aren't they? Everyone's got to money is a thing. And and for me, um I've always earned my own money. Right, I have always you know, I I left the home, left home and pretty much started earning straight away. And so for me, my definition of self is tied up in my ability to fund and support myself. And so moving into a space where I wasn't able to do that immediately, it's getting there now, slowly, slowly, but not being able to do that. You know, how do I identify I've become that word dependent, which is a whole nother layer of identity for someone, especially because someone I was married to someone in the military, so you know the the word dependent carries a lot of weight um and I that was a really difficult moment for me. So that's definitely one of them. And there are others as well. There are definitely others as well, but that was that was one of them.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah, right. Yeah, for me then, I I I would I think there's something to do with the isolation and loneliness. And the first time I could I laughed about it now, it wasn't funny at the time. I I I could remember because I live in Barcelona, um, and so there's different languages here. Um, and I I was studying, actively studying, and I found it so difficult at first, mainly from how I was showing up, exactly that. It was so difficult. I was concentrating on what I didn't know, what I what rather than what I did. Um, and so there's a real sense I met yeah, there you go, sat in my desk in my office upstairs, just picking up my these stupid heavy textbooks and fucking launching them. There's the whole language is bollocks, this is rubbish, doesn't make any sense. Stuff went flying, exactly giggling, but underneath all that was somebody who was very, very isolated and lonely that couldn't communicate. Yeah, um so it it went quite deep. Um, and I'm that's probably not directly linked to the military, but there's there's an isolation loneliness part there. Um and I could catch that, and it was a slow not at the time though, but it's a slow process of acceptance and change. Um, and and one of my things to do was to join a mountain bike group. So that that was so beneficial for me on a few for a few different reasons. Firstly, I was doing something physical. Um, I always I've always been active anyway, but yeah, um military that's what we do, isn't it? Big time and the adrenaline, so swapping one type of adrenaline for another. Um some of my friends would chuckle at that and say that's rubbish, but anyway, um there was the community side of aspect of mountain biking in a group. Um, the the biking did the talking, the language came second.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Um, and so there's loads of other little things, and and and it's no coincidence that once I changed started to change my perception of the world at the gym, that my third language, DINK, just came on like that from nowhere, from not being able to speak Catalan to yeah, two years after that doing a radio interview on on National Catalan uh radio, yeah. So which feels and felt impossible and it is always there. So yeah, I know there's a lot there for you, but um, yeah, probably the isolation.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

There is a lot, and there's a deliberateness again, like to go to well, there's the identifying what's going wrong, because a lot of people I think start sometimes struggle with that bit in the first place of like they might just feel like they're being a swallowed hole. Or or that's maybe a the wrong analogy, but sinking and not able to swim, having been, you know, Olympic athletes in it before, kind of thing. Yeah. And then going, okay, but I'm good and I can solve this. How do I solve this issue? What is the issue and how do I solve it? And you going into, well, hang on a second, that's where one of my strengths is. I'm gonna go and exploit that strength. That's maybe the wrong word, for my benefit, and all the second order effects that will have, because just you know, getting outside and meeting people, conversing, we're we're social animals, like talking, even if it's just to laugh at falling off a bike, or you know, that comedy mountain biking jump we've just done, like scared ourselves kind of thing. So there's loads in that of finding your next tribe, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Yeah, definitely. And so for me, if if I zoom right back out now from as a 46-year-old, looking back at all of those little rocks, that those stepping stones have have learnt I have learnt for um a sense of belonging with who I am, not what I am doing.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's a really good way of phrasing it. I like it. I like it.

unknown 41:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Do you still mountain bike now? What can you done?

SPEAKER_02 41:44

I haven't done since my birthday in September because I crashed my bike, really hurt my shoulder, and and it's been aggravated again from a neck injury injury, so no. And and here you go, I've got all my excuses and stories lined up. I don't mind. There's a there's a there's a oh, what's the word? There's a there's an outbreak of wild boar. I can't think of the word in English, there's like wild boar have got a disease, and they're spreading it all across the woods. So in the parks behind Barcelona and and where we live, they're all out of bounds and being taped up. Oh, boar hunting's gone through the roof. Yeah, but they're trying to cull them because of this disease. So yeah, can't get out to the woods where I am.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Well, it's interesting, and and that whole story as well links to like it's not just but that geographic geographic relocation that some of us experience coming out of the military. And yours is more of an extreme case because you you come out of a the English-speaking UK military and relocate to you know Spanish and Catalan-speaking Barcelona. And that's that's almost you know, away from everyone you deliberately in many levels from what you've said. And even when I reflect on mine, like mine feels kind of like a puny move compared to yours still in the UK. Uh, nowhere I've lived before, but somewhere to put flag in sand and go, This is this is me done for 10 years, or us done for 10 years, we're not moving for 10 years, which terrifies me because I've spent 27 years moving every two and a half years. I'm gonna get itchy feet, what do I do?

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Walk around the garden. Um there's a point though that we each experience this differently and we never know what the other person is experiencing regardless of where they're located or what they've what they're transitioning from or to.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

And it's really easy for an assumption of well, this was my experience of it, to kind of think, oh, it must be like that for lots of people. And whilst maybe the the identifying word for each of the layers that we go through in terms of transition is similar, you know, financial, geographic, identity, physical, generational, whatever, our our actual experience of all of those just makes each each transition unique, you know, each person's transition a completely unique experience. So in some ways you go, you know, the military is never going to be able to accommodate everyone. Best it can do is probably give you a blanket idea. But then you you dig in. Into each level of it, and it's a completely unique experience.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Yeah, definitely. And and and here, if what I would encourage my younger self to do, I think, rather than give advice to other people, is that the responsibility play that the piece, the ability to respond. So no matter no more whatever the cards that I'm dealt with, or the 17-year-old that I meet at the gate, that is my ability to respond to them, you know. Um, so how how might I help and support myself? And for me, the biggest accelerator has been external help, support, encouragement, love, guidance, mentorship, coaching, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Um, so is that what you would tell your 17-year-old self?

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Oh, big time. Don't worry about asking for help. And I would refer to myself as my love, you know, 29-year-old, 29-year-old boy who's third seen and done it all. Don't be scared to ask for help, my love. Yeah. And that that goes right back to the 10-year-old as well, without getting too deep into it.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

But yeah, yeah, you're okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

You've done some cool shit and life carries on. The world doesn't revolve around you. Um, get some help.

Key Takeaways And What’s Next

SPEAKER_00 45:32

And don't be and don't be don't be scared of taking the step out of the military, and don't think your military experience is worthless. You bring loads with you, just you know, you take the step and and see what happens. But there's a deliberateness about it. Deliberateness about it, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Yeah, definitely. And and you didn't teach yourself to fly. You you you know, you were given lots of instruction and lots of help and support, you know, and just like me with my job, I didn't teach myself it. And and and so yeah, I think we forget that when we step away. Um, we have to do it on our own. Um, I'm I'm not I'm not convinced. It's it's one way of doing it. Um but yeah. Helen, I I think we're pretty much there for today. I'm curious if there's anything that that you feel like you want to mention before we start wrapping.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

I think I'm gonna have to go and do a load more of self-reflection. Every time we have a conversation, lots of stuff bubbles up and lots of stuff, and I go, Oh, I've not thought about it that way. Like that triathlon common. I'm sort of like, hang on a second. I'm like, oh, there's another page I need to write. That's why we have these conversations. I yeah, exactly. And and I just I think one of the things that I really know is that individual experience for everyone. There might be uh themes that seem familiar or overlap a little bit in for people, but everyone's experienced the transition is so individual.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yeah, definitely. So for me that that feels like a a flag in the sand for for episode one, where we stayed quite quite light and and potentially maybe uh episode two going a bit deeper into some of the the practical and emotional challenges that we've faced or and other people have faced that we know and have worked with. But for me, Helen, thanks very much for for nudging this idea out into the world. It's been really, really interesting. And and yeah, the good thing is we've recorded it, so we get to listen to it again.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

We can listen to it now. Love it. It's always good to chat. Always good to chat.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Brilliant, speak soon.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

See you next time.