S3 Ep103 Dr. Alice Loving: Connection Changes Everything

This is a conversation about what’s really going on beneath behaviour.

We get into the gap between reacting and responding, and why most of us—especially under pressure—default to the behaviour we see rather than the feeling driving it. Alice breaks down mentalisation in a way that’s simple and practical. Not theory. Real-life application.

We talk about what happens when we’re dysregulated as parents, how that shapes the moment, and why connection has to come before correction if we want to be heard. There’s a strong thread around repair—how families that are “working” aren’t perfect, but they come back together well after things go wrong.

We also widen the lens. The cost of getting this wrong isn’t just in the home. It shows up in mental health, in systems, in society. And equally, the opportunity is upstream—small, consistent moments of presence, attention, and understanding.

There’s a lot in here for parents. But also for anyone leading, influencing, or in relationship with others.

Get in touch with Alice via LinkedIn or her website. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Forge and Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. Join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Forge and Resilience, I'm joined by Dr. Alice Loving. Alice works in child protection and family support, specializing in attachment, trauma, mentalization. Through her work with nurturing nature, she helps parents and professionals better understand children's behavior, strengthen connection, and support families before things reach crisis. Alice, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Can I just borrow that bio by the way? That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I might have a confession here that I take all the links that I can find them from you, mix it in, mix it together through AI, and ask it to give me a paragraph on this this case.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

AI is done well there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Sometimes it's bang on, sometimes it's way off. So good job, chat GPT. So um yeah, but yeah. You're welcome. I'll give I'll cut and paste that to you, no problem. Thanks. Alice, um yeah, I think I'm gonna go straight to it. And um, in terms of supporting parents and professionals uh in understanding child's behaviour, what do you think the general misconception or misunderstanding is around child's behaviour and how we interact with with our kids?

Behaviour Is A Clue Not The Point

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I think probably the number one thing um is instinctively responding to the behaviour that you're seeing rather than the thoughts and feelings of the child that are driving that behavior. So responding to the tantrum, responding to the to the anger, to the shouting without consideration for what's really behind it, what that what what the feeling is behind it. And rather than speaking to the feeling, you're speaking to the behavior and you react with that in mind.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah.

Mentalisation Under Stress And Conflict

SPEAKER_01 2:19

So that's kind of tapping into what we call mentalization, yeah. Yeah, so the ability to connect with what is in the mind of other people, so it's a really helpful skill that we have for ourselves, but also to use in relationships and also parenting. So for myself, it's my the ability to make links between my thoughts, my feelings, and behavior. So I understand why I might have reacted in a certain way, said what I've said, made a decision that I made based on the fact that at that moment I was actually feeling angry, sad, anxious, worried. So I can understand myself a lot better by connecting my own mental states and behaviour. In relationships, especially with our like close partners, it's a pretty fundamental pillar of a successful relationship. The ability to be able to connect with again what's in your partner's mind, what is beyond the behavior that you might be seeing, the words that you might be seeing, there's feeling behind there that's driving those words, driving those behaviours. And can we again just take a moment to connect with that rather than reacting back to the behavior that we're seeing? And why this is incredibly tricky to do as a partner but also a parent is that you to be able to mentalise well, you have to be in a very kind of grounded, regulated place yourself. So the moment you actually also now are feeling like a feeling to like a big level, it's much harder to then stay connected to what's in the mind of that person. You're then sort of gone into kind of defensive mode. The example I often give is my partner used to have a really long commute to the school that he worked at. So let's say he's been, he's really tired from that drive. He's had a day where the head teachers criticized him for doing something, he's really stressed about something he's got to get done for tomorrow. He's hungry, he's tired, he comes back home, and within like 10 seconds of stepping through the door, I make a comment to him about the way he's loaded the dishwasher. And we get this like big reaction. Like he's really like annoyed, angry, like too much. Now, if I can like put all of that together in that sort of split second, it's quite a reactive thing, then that I can hold his mental state in mind and I can give him grace on that reaction and think you're right, that's this isn't the right time to talk about the dishwasher. Tell me more about what happened with Mrs. Whoever. Like, let's let's sort out dinner because you're probably already hungry, like let's just, you know, but if but but let's say I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm stressed, I'm not gonna give him that response. I'm gonna go, why are you talking to me like that? And it's gonna suddenly become this whole big rage of an argument. So it's very difficult to perspective take the other person when you're in the midst of disagreement. But similarly with parenting, it's about once you're both no longer in that heightened, dysregulated place, can you then have a conversation where you're able to open up to seeing the perspective of the other person? And so, yeah, going back to parenting, it's that same idea of like staying connected to the feeling behind that behaviour, the tiredness, the hunger, the boredom, the pain if we're talking about little babies, um, and and being able to hold that in mind, and therefore you're much more able to offer a kind of sensitive, attuned response. But we can't get it right 100% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, yeah. It sounds it sounds so interesting as you talk about it there, because on on paper it's one thing, and and I've probably still got the the vibrations of an argument with my daughter last night bouncing through my system and getting to watch myself, yeah, get very close to responding to exactly or yeah, reacting, I I I say, rather than responding, yeah, um, to what her needs or or or challenge was. Um you you mentioned the the the to be able to offer that, we need to be quite grounded ourselves. Is that something that that that you teach the the people that you work with about? And and and if so, what's some of the things that have been that have worked well for for yourself and for the people that you work with in terms of uh those conversations and relationships?

Regulating Ourselves In Trauma Storms

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah, so I I worked with a family whose um they were on the brink of an adoption breakdown, actually. They had a child who's demonstrating quite like extreme behaviour, connected totally to his trauma history. And I worked with with um one of the mums, and she really struggled whenever he would start sort of shouting, screaming, and you know, he would go really, this is kind of like a trauma response, but he would go say the things he knew he'd get a reaction from her for, like it's all kind of part of a defensive coping strategy. So very quickly, she would find herself feeling angry rather than, and once she's in anger mode, she's just like shouting back at him, he's then feeling more frightened, so he's shouting more, and it's just like this really disruptive cycle of behavior. So with her, um, she uh the first step was like she actually has to get herself into a place where she is more regulated. She can't just come in and react straight away because she just step one has got to actually be to regulate herself. So I'll talk about the strategy that I did with her, but yeah, she was a parent who like the it was better for her not to say anything than to say the wrong thing. So we she had to just like I would rather her stand there, be present with him, saying nothing in silence than say anything, and take that moment to just um kind of just ground herself and then be ready to also. I mean, with her, it was slightly different to generic parenting because I would say to her, in that moment, visualize him as that neglected, scared, abused toddler. Because that's what you're getting. Those behaviours are totally linked to that. He's in that mode, see him as that toddler, you know, and that you that was another strategy I used with her to get her to just like regulate herself, step out of her own immediate response and connect with what's underneath everything she's seeing for him. Um, and also the beauty of that work, because that was video the video-based stuff, is that we did this every week. So every week we had footage for her to take time to connect with what's he thinking, what's he feeling in a sort of play scenario. But so I was growing her capacity to be able to do that every week. So she was able then to start outside of those sessions in those moments, connecting because she was building up this capacity to connect better with his mind and his thoughts and his feelings rather than the horrible things he was saying or him, you know, trying to kick her or hit her or whatever was happening.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Is is is there any truth then to the fact that when we are reacting, and regardless of whether it's with a kid or a relationship or a boss, that that that that we're reacting from our own sort of wounds or or or challenges as well sometimes?

Triggers And Intergenerational Wounds

SPEAKER_01 10:34

I think, yeah, absolutely. I mean it kind of depends on the context. Um, but I think there's probably going to be vulnerability to that. I think whenever you're having an extreme reaction, an extreme response, like it's highly likely that it's probably not that exact thing that is in front of you. How how how would you define the extreme uh something that I guess makes you become incredibly dysregulated? So if you are reacting back in a sort of unless that person is a direct threat to you, in your safety in that moment, if you find yourself screaming, shouting, that there's probably more than that specific situation. There's probably a trigger under there somewhere. Um, and that can be, you know, your child has triggered it. I mean, that's the other thing, isn't it? Your own child can trigger um so much of some of that more extreme dysregulated behaviour. Um, but yeah, so if if if it's that when it's that extreme level of of anger, aggression, shouting, I mean, even violence, it's probably unlikely that that specific conversation is what that's necessarily about. There may well be some underlying um links to how that person is making you feel in that moment, which connects to other times you felt like that.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Um why is this work so important to you, Alice?

The Societal Cost Of Separation

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Gosh, um I I I think, well, I've always kind of loved and adored being around children and babies. I used to want to have like four children of my own. I've had two, and I'm ready to draw a line. Anyone with more than two children, hats off to you. It's like I just I toy with the idea every now and again. But now I just think it's just a lot. It's just a lot. It's a lot for me with a PhD and parenting and working with families for 16, 17 years. It's a lot. So I just think I I'm I'm good with two. I can give two everything I need. They need. Um, so yes, so so it started as that, but then also I feel like my kind of um ancestral lineage, if you like. I feel like I'm probably the first within both sides of my family to have experienced a much more um to just have like experienced a much more nurturing childhood, but also um have the awareness to think about how I want to parent, like be really conscious about that and the kind of parent I want to be. I'm I've got the space for that. Whereas I think both sides of my family, from my mum's and my dad's, there's lots of issues around alcohol uh misuse and depression, um, and being in my my grandma's mother was sectioned and kept in a mental hospital um after her husband died, and all seven children went into a children's home. Um, my mum had potential sort of um social services involvement around being left with her dad, and he he suffered with his mental health and alcohol. And so I think there's just something maybe in there that is like, well, actually, now I get to be in a space and a place to um yeah, to not only be able to give my children quite a different experience, but also be kind of skilled in this passion and this knowledge to help other families as well. So sorry, that's quite a long answer, but I think that it's a kind of combination of all of those bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

No, I love it. Yeah, and and and I I'm just trying to wrap my brains back to our first conversation. And did you do some research potentially into the cost of yeah, potentially keeping families together and and the impact? Hang on, I'm gonna stop myself. Yeah, what let me ask it like this what's the cost of us not and coming to certain relationships fully aware and grounded as as as parents, it parenting from a place of intention and awareness, and if we take that right out to the to the extreme of like what might be the cost on society to oh, I mean, the the I think the cost of not supporting families where possible to remain together is billions to society.

Circle Of Security In Real Life

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Because it's all it's all it becomes all fractions of if you've got attachment-based trauma and and and I think also before I kind of go more into that, we I think it's really important to acknowledge that for people that don't have inside knowledge around social services, what you're most commonly hearing is serious case reviews that make it into the media. So they're kind of the really extreme, sadistically harming parents who've got trauma histories, but also probably some severe enduring mental health um issues. Um, but they are really the absolute minority. And what I often say is that we've got a group of parents who all sit more in the middle, who I feel would be kind of workable, could make some really positive changes to their lifestyles, to their parenting style with the right support. Um, but the reality is as it currently stands, the system is not quite there with delivering that, um, the way it's kind of set up and and and structured. But going back to this idea around cost, I mean, at the moment we've got um, I think it's about 85,000 children in care who are looked after. Um now, like that, and the sad reality is those children are probably not going to be better off than if we had kept them with their families but given them support. I mean, it's very unlikely. A lot of them are not going to do well with that. It's not better to them. Some of them it may well have done, but I think the majority not so. Um, so so yeah, so I mean, that yeah, the the the cost of so for me, I guess my kind of avenue is about lots of these parents have their own attachment trauma, so they've been abused and neglected as children themselves. They're not sadistically harming their children, they are, there is neglect there. Um, there is um, but you know, some of that is unfortunately ingrained with poverty and their social economic situations. Um, there is um, there's also, you know, there is also some sense of the way in which they are possibly causing significant harm, be it with physical, um, you know, physical abuse. And I'm not kind of trying to make like, you know, downplay that. It's obviously significantly serious, but I think that the majority of parents love their children, and if they could be helped to to undo some of those patterns and behave differently, then they 100% would choose that. Um, but yeah, so at the moment our system really just sort of it it's almost like we're kind of the social police. We we come in, we say, well, these are the things you need to do differently, and we're gonna write a plan, I'm gonna check whether you're doing them. And if you're not doing them, we'll take you to court and we'll take your kids off you. That's the bare bones of what how children's services functions. There are pockets of brilliant interventions, but that's the bare bones of it. Um, and so as you mentioned, society, you know, there is a benefit to society that we actually invest in in that kind of support and intervention, because the cost is not just the cost of keeping you know one of those 85,000 children in care, it's all the other costs as well. It's also the cost of that in um of the impact that that kind of trauma has on mental health. So that's a cost on the NHS, that's a cost on prison, if we're gonna say that also that link between trauma and attachment history is gonna potentially take you down that avenue if you've also had a sort of severing severing with your birth family. You know, that's the the cost of prison. The uh the health implications. So again, you know, not kind of treating this uh childhood trauma has a huge implication on people's physical health. Um, and so it's kind of actually every aspect of society is impacted by us not thinking about this more clearly and putting money, you know, into this sort of more upstream way of thinking. I mean, I I I think I shared a um a cliff of Bessel Vanderkoult last summer where he was basically saying, like, we could actually end cycles of intergenerational child abuse. We we've got enough knowledge now on therapeutic means of of what works and what doesn't. And of course, someone has to be ready for it. But imagine that, because that is what we see, and everybody knows that. You know, this intergenerational cycle is what we do see. Um, however, not everyone who's been abused will go on to abuse their own children. But of the population we are working with, the majority of them have had their own trauma and abuse. And the system doesn't recognise that. You know, it's it's it's almost like this elephant in the room. And I'm and I'm constantly having to mention it all the time. I I we I go to quite a lot of child protection conferences with my role, which is like multi-professional group where everyone talks about the plan for the family. And so often I have to say, well, you know, where's this, where's the therapeutic provision in amongst all of this? I've got this mum that I'm currently working with who has just has a massive trauma history, and it has hugely impacted her in terms of her, I think she's got chronic inattentive ADD. So not the hyperactive side of ADHD, but ADD. And her home is like, I mean, you can barely see the floor. There's just like stuff everywhere, there's like, you know, rubbish, there's like a a teacup on the on the radiator when I went to go and use the loo. It's probably been there about two weeks. Like, that's the way she's living. And the local authority are sort of bringing in these people to come and clean the house for her, like and to teach her and to keep on top of the house. But you're like, that is costing a lot of money, and it's so surface level, she's not choosing to be like this. Like, she's got mental health difficulties, she needs therapy, she probably even needs medication for the ADD. She's not just this lazy person that can't be bothered. So that's just one aspect I think that maybe captures that idea of like this is not being thought about, but it's such a significant piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, yeah. So, how how does your work or what does the the work that you do look like when you start to to work in with a family?

Video Feedback That Builds Capacity

SPEAKER_01 22:02

And so um, so I kind of on the very first session, I will show them a diagram which um is uh linked to a parenting intervention called the circle of security. And actually, this is quite helpful for again just thinking about generic parenting and it kind of talks through uh two key elements of that parenting relationship or the attachment relationship, which Is being able to be a secure base. So we all need to try and offer that to our children. And that looks like essentially being available, reliable, dependable. And other aspects of that are around a sense that your child feels like you enjoy being with them. So there's this sense of like enjoy with me, like, oh, actually, my parent likes spending time with me, likes doing things with me. That's that's part of feeding into that secure base. So there's enjoy with me, there's um help me. So like to feel like your caregiver is available should you need them to help you with something. And that, you know, can that's throughout your childhood years. As a toddler, we know it's really important that you feel that because then that helps you feel like you can explore your environment. You know, you know that your parents are watching you, so you just feel a bit more confident, you know, when you're in the park or wherever you are. And often if you go to a park, you might see some kids do that. They kind of go a certain distance and then check back. Um, so yeah, so so enjoy with me, help me. Um, yeah, that sense of watching over me is all part of feeling like you've got this secure base. The other aspect is being a safe haven for your child. So that relates much more to their emotions and that they feel that you are, again, available, reliable, dependable when they have a negative feeling that you are that you are there to kind of welcome them in, that you are there to kind of they know that they can rely on you, that that feeling isn't long-lasting, and you're almost like the solution to the problem, you'll find the solution somehow. And that feels really comforting. Um, other aspects of that is, you know, that you comfort me, that you delight in me. So when I did my PhD research, I kind of followed families through the child protection process, and there was a to see like what factors might contribute to those that have a positive outcome and keep their kids and those that don't. And in the group that didn't keep their kids, they this delight in me was just like absent. Whereas the group that did, they were like wanting to show me pictures of their babies, talking about the first time they rolled over, they did this, they did that, they had hundreds of videos, and they were just totally, there was a sense of delight in their in their child. Whereas the other group didn't have that. Um, I mean, they didn't have that, I think, because again, it's kind of links to their own trauma history. Their brain was defensively coping with their attachment trauma by teaching them that all relationships are harmful. So I can't even let myself connect with this little being that I've created because any relationship is harmful to me. So I don't think they ever felt that genuine delight. Um, so yeah, so I start with that diagram and I just say, what of these things, you know, do you want to work on? Do you think would be helpful to work on? Um, if there's quite an extensive history, I might say, you know, when Jack was a baby, what do you think his experience of these things was? Just to still kind of like eke out maybe what he might need now. Um, so we start with that. And actually, the last two parents I've just started working with, they just went, I want to work on all of them. I was like, brilliant. Okay. Um, so that was fad. That was a really good start. So I do that, and then I also do what we call mentalization questions just to see where they're at with that capacity, because my intervention is solely about trying to improve that capacity in them. Um, and yes, so I will ask them questions like um, what do they enjoy doing? What are they frightened or scared of? Um, what if you could give me three words to describe them, how would you describe them? So let's say Dad says, Oh, she's a happy little girl, and I might then say, Can you give me a recent memory or experience with her of when she felt happy? Just so I'm starting to tap into his perception of connecting with her feeling and the reality or the behavior. So, yeah, so that's kind of the first session. And then after that, every week for uh 11 weeks after that, I do like they film themselves with their child for 10, 15 minutes doing a task which we've set together, like a puzzle or a board game or doing some drawing, um, building some Lego, whatever it might be. And then they send me that video, and we then watch the video together. And during that video feedback session, it is very strength-based. So, part of this is also about giving them the motivation to make some of those changes. And sometimes that comes from not feeling like you're actually a totally shit parent. And there's potential here. Um one of the mum, the mum I just mentioned with the messy house, my first session with her, she started crying, properly crying about two minutes in, and she just said, nobody has ever pointed out anything that I've done well. She was just totally like overwhelmed by it. Um, and actually, another mum that I've been working with who's um been in care herself, I'm I had one session, one session with her, and I was so positive about her, she couldn't handle it. So she almost kind of tried to break up with me.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Reject it, yeah.

The Ten Minute Miracle Habit

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah, and I've not I had not experienced that, but I totally get it. Like it's like, God, this this doesn't fit with my model of myself, how I see myself. So I'm gonna just sort of cut this off. Luckily, she's back in the picture um now, but but that's kind of understandable. So yeah, so we go through that with the video, and and actually, as a parent, very rarely do you get the opportunity to see yourself like in all its glory, you know, the good bits and the ugly bits. Yeah, um, and there's not many ugly bits in these situations, to be honest, but but it's so powerful to have an opportunity to be the observer of your own, of your own interactions. Um, and also like the thing here is that I'm not the expert of them and I'm not the expert of their child. Like, it gives them the opportunity to have the space to reflect on it based on what they're seeing. So it's very much like a guided reflection space rather than it feeling, you know, like a critique. And it and if that if I do need to say anything that is more like a direct like thing that needs to be addressed or changed, I do it through what's called speaking through the child. So I'll do it through the voice of the child, because that again feels so much softer, and parents are much more receptive to that than me saying, You see, here when you did that, what you should have done differently, or what you should have said is it's fair, I can I can communicate that message, but I do it through speaking for the child, the child's voice. That's so much more powerful than it being mine.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah, what what what I hear there for myself is the ability to be present with with with my kids and intentional and how I'm interacting with them. Um yeah, it takes quite a bit of practice, even though nothing yeah, has gone gone wrong.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

So the the 10-minute miracle is a generic parenting technique that I also build into this work with families, and I I took it from um these brilliant women in America who've got an Instagram page called Big Little Feelings. And it's 10 it's making sure that 10 minutes for 10 minutes a day, each of your children get your solid attention, focus, interaction.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Yeah, 10 10 minutes and 24 hours, it it it it makes me go, wow, a little bit. Um but I because I'm sure I I'm sure there's days when I do that, and I'm sure there's days when I I forget. Yeah. Life.

Repair After Rupture In Families

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, even if it is the they get one-to-one with you like 10 minutes before bedtime, like as long as they're getting like that, and it's deliberately 10 minutes, so that you can hopefully try and and find it. But this idea being that like if you pour into them in that time, they get some of those feelings that we just talked about, like that link into that sense of secure-based safe haven. And and I mean, with the more extreme behaviour situations that I work with, we say like the more you pour into them and you are like rewarding that kind of positive, calm behaviour, it can help reduce the more challenging behavior, which is a bid, you know, for some children to get attention, to get connection.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Hmm. Yeah. I've got a question in a minute, but I'm I'm curious what what do you see in a resilient family, or what comes up for you in practice when you when you think of a resilient family?

SPEAKER_01 31:41

So this is interesting because I don't know how I and I know this is your whole vibe, but I don't know how I feel about what.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Isn't it isn't yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

I I the the the problem I have with the word resilient is it it it to me conjures up this idea of like you like you you're you're like you're in something that's tricky, but you you're you've managed it, like you're good enough that you're like coping and and and like well done because you've got this in your character so you can cope and you can manage. And then it's like, but what about the people that aren't resilient? If they aren't resilient, it's not necessarily gonna be a choice. It's like probably lots of other factors that are impacting on their ability to be resilient. So I don't know whether the the word in itself puts onus on like well done to the people who have somehow got the skills or the circumstance to cope, and the other people are yeah, are not doing it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah, no, I I'm very open to to be challenged on that, and um and yeah, I I completely get what you're saying. And so to to reframe that question then, what what would what would be a word that you use? I don't because I don't really want to use functional.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Um but yeah, I'm curious what what what or model is so like I guess the the the people that are sort of like you know that they're that are just I guess what you're getting at is the families that are functioning well. Functioning well. Is that what you mean? And what what's in what's going going, why, what, how come that that is the case? What ingredients are there that is meaning that they have a relatively, you know, I don't even like calm, you know, like I don't even know what the word is, but is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Kind kind of. There's there's there's ingredients to what you've said there to that question, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

I I think it's well, I think it's first of all acknowledging that that sort of like family that are functioning well will still have moments of like rupture. Um and that's actually, and you you kind of want that. You want children to actually be exposed to a range of emotions and feelings and uh conflict. Um, because if they don't, I can guarantee uh uh being in the reality of the world will be totally overwhelming and possibly plunge them into a mental health condition by by not being exposed to that stuff. But it's imbalance, isn't it? It's a measure. So I think it's that. I think it's it's probably uh parents who are able to do the repair following the rupture and who are able to the majority of the time be sensitive and attuned to what's in their child's mind and be reacting and responding to that rather than the behavior, so that capacity to mentalise. But I think you don't need to do that 100%. I think if you're 60%, you're good, maybe even 50%. Um and so yeah, so I think it's that it's that being able to do the repair after the rupture, um, being able to mentalise, um being able to have those aspects of really showing your children that you enjoy being with them, that you get joy from them, that you delight in them, um, having that quality time together, even if it is just 10 minutes of that day, um, and them feeling loved, just so loved, like loved being loved, saying I love you being as common in your household as like can you pass the ketchup? You know, like feeling loved is just so important, and it's not always about saying it, like all of those other things, if they're at play, I think a child will naturally feel that. But I think there is something so nice to be for that to be just such a such a natural communication, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

No, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

But that being said, for some for some parents, it it for the given their own circumstances, none of those things come naturally, yeah, yeah.

Regulate Relate Reason With Children

SPEAKER_00 36:10

And I guess that's the challenge. And and again, so whilst I don't know the question, for me, the answer that I hear is a family that that uh things that I hear for myself, or is there's a communication element there between the kids. There's an um the ability to empathize, which I guess is mentalization at some level, um, the self-awareness and self-care to look after ourselves so that we can then look after our kids, not being able to pour from an empty bucket, an ability to be present. Um, I recently read, or I'm just about to finish Hold On to Your Kids by Gordon Newfield, is it? And Gabo Mate, talking about the the connection before correction in terms of um yeah, certain behaviors. But I for me I find a really interesting read, really interesting read, and something you touched on in your answer there that reminded me of it.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Um I think the other connection before correction is great. The other thing is Bruce Perry's three Rs. So they are, let's say, um, and actually I've got a situation where my partner didn't do this, which I'll talk about. But um so because yeah, can you imagine being with me with all of this parenting stuff? Not uh it's not a small feat for anyone. Um, but I don't I I'm very like non-critical of him, and in general, we tend to have like a very similar vibe on how we manage the kids and our parenting style. But anyway, so the three R's is like, let's say a scenario has happened, I've got a three-year-old and a six-year-old, and the three-year-old has like grabbed, has got frustrated because the six-year-old has got a toy or is doing something with a toy, and what and and he wants that toy. So he's just like grabbed it off her, she's taken it back, and then he's like smacked her across the face or something like that. And she's now crying and wailing and upset. So the first step to interacting with that behavior with him is to regulate him because he has gone into fight mode. He's like threatened, he's being aggressive because he's like, I've got to defend my stuff, and now I'm angry because I haven't even got the thing that I wanted. So at that point, I any words coming out of my mouth to him, which I instinctively want to tell him off for doing the hitting, are not gonna be heard because he's like, I'm ready for a fight and I'm gonna like attack anyone that comes near me. I'm not listening, I'm not in cognitive, like reasonable mode. So the first thing I need to do is regulate him. So that might be um, so in this scenario, what actually happened is my partner picked him up. He he didn't do the three steps. My partner picked him up. He then, in a really firm voice, said to him, You do not hit your sister, which he doesn't raise his voice very often. So as soon as he did that, my son was like whacked him in the face as well. Because he's like, You are now like a big threat in my space. So, like, yeah, get out of my face. I'm in fight mode. Then he put him in his room, which has never happened before. He put him in his room and he closed the door, which again, he's not done before. So he just sat there, just like he just didn't, he didn't even try and get out of the room, he just sat there crying. I then went in, tried to offer him a hug, tried to regulate him with a hug, but didn't work. He's just like, I think there are some kids that like when they're cross, they just have to have the space to be. And if you try and like welcome them in, it just doesn't quite fit. And he's one of those. My daughter would have like melted into me in a second, but he's different to me to her. Um, so then I was like, Well, do you want he's he's wailing, wailing, wailing. And I said, Do you want to do like do a story? Should we read a story? And he's still wailing, wailing, wailing. He picks up a book, still wailing, wailing, wailing, gives it to me, and then just sits in my lap. And I start reading it, and he does calm down. So that was the regulation for him. Bear on the stair is his current favourite book. Stop crying. Right. So the next stage is relate. So we've regulated him. The next stage is relate. So I need to get him to understand, to feel like I understand what's behind all of this explosion. So I can say to him, I can see that you got really fright really frustrated and upset when Aubrey took that toy, that you felt angry and you felt frustrated. Um, and he can, you know, he's three, so he does know what I'm saying when I say angry, and he can say he can acknowledge that. Now, again, he couldn't acknowledge that while he's in scratch everyone's eyeballs out mode. He'd just be like, Why are you saying this to me? It's annoying. You're probably trying to like go for me. Anyway, so we've had that conversation. We've I've done the relate. Then we need the reason. So that's so we've done regulate, we've done relate. Reason is essentially being able to connect with him that it's not okay to hit your sister and to hurt somebody else when you're feeling angry, right? Like, that's not okay. Nobody in this family is allowed to hit anyone. Now, he by going through all those stages, he can like process what I'm saying. It doesn't mean he might not have the power to not do it again, but he's but every time you do that, you're feeding into like that is what is reasonable behaviour and the expectation of this family. Now, none of that would have effect at all if one he'd just been left in his room like Tom did, or I'd immediately gone, you do not hit your sister, like completely pointless. Yeah, like not gonna help. So I think that is in the mix of that, like those three steps, as uh as much as possible. But you can imagine, right, you cannot regulate your child if you are dysregulated.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

So a little bit like what we said at the beginning, like what can you do for before you even go to step to try and you know get involved with them to just get in the right space for yourself.

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SPEAKER_00 42:05

Yeah, I think that's that's important, even though we're talking about kids there, there's certain relationships that yeah, even even in dealing with other people, they're they're they're great points to yeah, certain conversations we don't have in certain uh emotional states, um, and and to and start preaching from from our higher mighty place isn't always well received, and understandably so. So, yeah, that completely makes sense. Alice, um I'm I'm very aware of time, um, and I feel feel a bit gutted to have to cut this short, but I'm curious is is there anything in this short conversation um that we've not talked about that you'd you'd like to mention as we start to close out?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Um yes, so the the video work that I'm doing with families, I'm kind of getting to the stage now where I actually need more resources than I have. So the video work really works best when the parent has like a laptop that they can have the sessions with me, because we do it online. Many of them just use their phones, but it means that then they're not seeing the image of them with their child on a very big screen, and it's it still works fine. But I had acquired a couple of laptops, but now I've got more families that I'm working with. I kind of am taking a family on before the other one's finished with it. So um there's kind of resources like that, but also um each of the families that I work with, many of them are kind of very much struggling financially. So I try and purchase small little games and things that they can keep and use with their children. So what I would like to start doing, because I've set myself up as a community interest company, is opening up to, you know, any charitable donation that people might want to contribute towards being able to kind of fund those sorts of resources alongside um alongside the work. So if there's anybody listening who, I mean, I know some organizations as well do have sort of a, you know, I I'm not very at bay with like the business world, but I am aware that there is some sort of I don't know what it's called, community giving aspect to a business, or do you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah, social partnership almost type of work.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yes, yeah. That maybe sometimes can feed into that with like bigger companies, which is not my bag, and I don't work in that world and I don't know. anyone in that world. But when I go on a podcast that isn't just generic to people listening from social care, I always think, oh, well, there might be somebody who this kind of links into yeah, where they are.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Well I love it. If we don't ask, we don't get in that something to put in the show notes and and to put out to my contacts. And yeah, um let's see where that goes. I'll put all your information into the show notes, Alice. But um yeah thanks so much for for taking some some time to to talk to me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. There's there's lots of little things to go and reflect on more than you probably realise. And yeah thanks for the incredible work that you do in in the community. So thank you thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Thanks for having me.