S3 Ep104 Helen Lunnon-Wood: Transition Series #2

Your service ends, but your decision load explodes. One day you are inside a system that tells you where to be, what to wear, and what matters. The next, you are choosing everything,for some, the smallest choices can hit the hardest.

Helen Lunnon-Wood joins me again for part two of our transition series. As a former RAF fast jet pilot and the founder of High Flight Coaching, she brings a grounded view of what happens beneath the surface when you leave the military. We talk about the messy middle: the loss of structure, the shock of self-presentation after uniform, and the way work boundaries can collide with a lifetime of service-before-self. We also open up the deeper layer around values, ethos, moral compass, and how disillusionment can shape your next move in civilian life.

From there we get into purpose, belonging, and the loneliness that can show up even when you are surrounded by people. We tease apart loneliness versus isolation, why so many of us seek “familiar” organisations after leaving, and how mentoring, coaching, journalling, and honest reflection can turn the boulders on your path into stepping stones. We finish by defining thriving not as glory, but as small moments, gratitude, and choices your 80-year-old self will thank you for.

If this resonates, listen now, share it with someone navigating a veteran career change, and leave a review so more people can find these conversations on military transition and resilience.

Find Helen on LinkedIn or via her website.

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Transcript

Welcome To The Transition Series

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Forge and Resilience, real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill, and join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Forging Resilience are joined once again by Helen Ludan Woods, who's a former RAF fast jet pilot and founder of High Flight Coaching. We're working on episode two of this transition series where we're exploring not just leaving the military but what happens underneath it. Today we're going to move into what we discussed as potentially the messy middle, a loss of structure, decision making, isolation, and how we personally have navigated some of those changes and challenges. Hello and welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Hey, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

I'm really well, thank you. I'm really well. Um I'm curious, just to kick things off, um if you've had any reflections or or or insights from from our conversation last time and the things we discussed.

Deliberate Exits And Hidden Losses

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I always come away from a conversation to go, oh, I haven't thought about it like that. Or his experience was different because duc duc duck. And um I had that again last time. Um and what what was interesting, you know, we spoke, we spoke about things like you know, being deliberate about transitioning, like where you can, and we know not everyone's experience is the same as ours. Some people, you know, didn't that the transition might have been very sudden or unexpected. Um others it might have been been coming for a long time, you know, they literally retired out of the military, for example. But there's a deliberateness about transition that I think is a really important element to sit on and focus on that I think we as military people perhaps don't in some ways. We kind of, you know, you're in the midst of it all in the military and you don't give too much thought, perhaps too much thought early enough on, as to all of the things you're gonna have to to do and think about, all the things you're gonna gain, all the things you're gonna have to decide, all the things you're gonna lose. And some of those are com unexpected. Some of those are should be expected, and some of those were very very oh yeah, well of course, you know, expected and yeah it was a really interesting mix. Really interesting mix.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Do you do you think though, coming from a military military background, there's any differences between somebody that's coming away from a corpor corporate job or changing careers mid-thirties or 40s?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

I think um I think one of the things that I've noticed from having moved from a military into the civilian world is, and this is what we hit off last time, was that corpor so civilian world is no, let's start the somewhat military world. You go into the military and your decisions are made for you. Lots of them anyway, right? What you wear, where you eat, when you show up, who you report to, how often you get your report, it's all very structured, and so your decision load is relatively low. Um, and there's a support structure around you. You know, your dentist emails you at work to say you need to come in for your dental appointment. Um and it's you you have to. You don't get a choice about that, you have to, you know, it's it's part of your responsibility of being in the military to be dentally fit, right? Deployable. You go into the corporate world, that in and civilian world, and it's not that. And so there's bits that are the same when you talk about transition for the military and for people in the civilian world who are facing transition or deliberately choosing to make changes in the the structure they exist in. So so if you were in the civilian world, that structure has never really existed in the same way it has in the military. And when you choose to change job, role, life, move, whatever it is, house, there's still that idea of it being similar, you're still gonna have to find a dentist, you're still gonna, you know, they will let you know when you need to come for an appointment, but if you go, frankly, you know, it's on you. The military structure is different from that. Much more, like we said last time, childlike. And so whilst there are comparisons, and I definitely see translation in terms of some of the questions that the mil the civilian to civilian translation, like you want to change a job where you really have a total rethink of your purpose, there's other bits that aren't aren't similar.

Decision Fatigue Beyond The Uniform

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah. But what what are some of the sort of decision lows that you think catch people off guard that are coming from from our old worlds into civilian world?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Some of them are really trivial. Some of them are really trivial. And actually, I say that, actually, I'm gonna rethink that. Um, so for example, like what are you wearing today? You're not in uniform. I'm not in uniform, you know. I didn't move from a uniform to a uniform services. So I have to think about what I'm wearing. And what does it where does it and that sounds trivial, totally trivial? Have I actually got just the enough clothes in my wardrobe to constitute a wardrobe beyond my you know, the clothes I needed, you know, for a little bit of my military life. But what you wear is representative of your personality, and in the military, they've made us all the same, they put us in the same uniform and all this. And when you come into the civilian world, suddenly you're interpreted by what you wear, you're interpreted about how you present yourself, you're interpreted about by other people and by yourself. Like today is a hoodie and sweat, you know, and and sweatpants, and I'm just gonna sit and do some emails. Today I'm doing a webinar, today I'm out and about, therefore, I need to present myself in this certain way, which are feel like trivial decisions, but it's all it's a huge step when you've existed in a uniform all your life, because suddenly what you wear is part of your definition, your personal definition, as well as your professional definition, if that makes sense. Whereas in the military, once you're in uniform, it's your professional definition and you embody it kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

And even so, even those tiny decisions about who you are and what you are are actually much bigger. Um, and it's funny, like we talked about going back to meet your 17-year-old self. Well, I've started going, oh, I missed what she used to wear. Like, I'm not in my Doc Martin's and all that. Why would you not yet not when I'm being professional? But part of the person I left behind was the the personality of my clothes. Um, and so that's quite an important bit. There's much bigger bits than that, but the decision load suddenly goes up because I've never had to think about it before.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Yeah, do you know what though? I you when you had your own opportunity, when you weren't working, though, was it really?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, right. We used to have a joke. We used to have a joke where where, you know, they would be the the sp especially for the lads, actually, because the girls, girls are terminally unique in the bits that I was in, right? We were one of a hundred or whatever. So in this terminal uniqueness that would stand out whatever we were we wore. Now we had to adhere to certain regulations in the mess, that kind of stuff. But we were far less we were gonna stand out whatever. The boys, I mean, they used to joke that actually some of their civilian clothes was kind of had a had a regulation number as well, because they'd be in chinos and a blue shirt, and and nine out of ten of them would turn out in a version of that, and then one of them would show up in a t-shirt, but then have the proverbial taken out of it. So it was like another uniform anyway. And and there's always the joke about you know, the army always wears a red cord.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, uh I can't I can't help but that what highlights to me when I think back as well is yeah, you're right, I saw I saw that, and I I probably conformed in certain ways, but also I didn't. More than once I go, I got described as looking like a student or a cut of and refugee, you know. No offense to coffee than refugees, but I it just scruffy or my own style, not the the the chinos ore all the desert boots, jeans, and shirt tucked in. Yeah, north face, not all the time, yeah. Well, yeah, at the beginning, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

But um, yeah, so but even that was called out, right? Whereas now, walk down the street, frankly, unless you're doing something ridiculous, people just like do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah. In in in terms of the the loss of structure, what i is there s things that you've done to build your own sort of structure to replace the the mechanics and backbones of of where you've come from.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

I don't know about you, but I kind of it took me a while to realise that was the the problem because I came out I came out 18 months ago, no, a bit less than that, but I am I sort of like, ooh, this is exciting. No one cares what I do. And then you're like, oh, no one cares what I do, and then you're then you have a no one, no one cares. You know, I could really plan my diary any way I want. You know, if I want to, I've got a friend who works, she is a nightbird, she works from about 10 pm till about 6 a.m. because her body clock works like that. And she was at one point she was like, Do you think do you think I should like plan my emails so they go out at a more normal time? I was like, No. No. If if that works for you, then you know, that's that's your time. No one can no one minds, no one cares. That's slightly different, two sides of a different coin though, I suppose. But that works for her, and and that's her structure. For me, I had to be deliberate because eventually when I was I was just getting maxed with family commitment, you know, I'm still in the childcare, needing to look after my kids, if I don't plan it right, etc. So I needed to make sure that worked. But also part of the reason I left was the structure that it had been hadn't been working. So there was all this idea of so now I do live by my diary. I check in with the husband to make sure that I've got everything that he needs from his perspective, I need from my perspective, so that we don't drop anything or abandon the child somewhere and we should go. Oh, there's another football. I thought you were getting them, that kind of thing. So for me, the structure was I had to go and be deliberate about it.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah. But you you were quite different, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah. Yeah. I there's there's there's a lot obviously lots of differences to our stories and experiences. Um and time's just one of them in terms of uh uh time served and also time since we've left. Um I think one of the biggest things that is different for me in terms of structure is how the importance of putting myself first and that's not selfish. Um but it still feels like it sometimes from the point of view. If I can't I can't pour from an empty cup, if I am tired, overwhelmed, response or reactive, then I'm not gonna show up as a as as a a present parent or coach or partner, but as a such a knock-on effect, you know. So so learning, learning, for example, that at whatever time it is that I decide that the laptop gets closed, that it does get closed, and I'm not flirting with work in between. Still human, it happens, but you know, so it was yeah, put putting myself quite high up the priority list without impacting people, knowing that there's a positive impact on on others when when I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Um yeah, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

That's one of the biggest structural differences, and and not always getting it right, and sometimes it will look like this, and other weeks it will look like that. Um, and yeah, it's a dance, and there's partners and and all sorts of things in there. So, yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things for me, structural-wise. Because it's it's so easy to work constantly and forget about the little things.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Um and also in the military, like the the idea was you were there 20 you whilst you may not have been at work, 24-7 you were in the military. So if you got a phone call at 10, hey, pack your bags, you need to be. You got very used to doing that. And actually, one of the structural differences, I don't know whether you recognise it, is at 5:30, close the laptop. Like they don't own you 24-7 if they if you're in a contracted PAYE job or whatever, they own you from whatever the contract says, 8 30 to 5 30. If it's 5 31, close the laptop. You don't need to be online. Now that doesn't always translate, and I know that, but we go from an ethos of respect, integrity, service, excellence, service before self, or or whatever other you know, the the um the sort of ethos was into a space where you work for a company, they pay you X amount of money to do these amount of hours.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, and it it reminds me of the distinction of between giving it all and giving your all. Yeah, and let me see if I can remember this without all balls in it up. But giving it all is exactly that. So from nine to five, whatever it is, I'm I'm focused on work, giving it all is nine to five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. It starts to overlap, there's no boundaries, um, there's there's creep. But the the the the challenge here though is often that's what gets us ahead, or where we get acknowledged, um, where we start to accelerate or make progress, or that's the perceived perception. That's the perception of that. Um so yeah, it's continual, I think. There's a continual dance uh and and the rhythm and pace changes.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Right. Really interesting, isn't it? About and and I think, well, this is a really interesting one. We've just you know we've moved into ethos, which is a is a really big subject, you know, morals, values, they're really important parts, and they're for a lot of people in the military, they're part of the reason why we joined the services, that idea of service before self, that idea of um something bigger than yourself. There was the adventure bit to it as well, there was the challenge, there was doing something different and all of that, but we join with that, you know. Yeah, most of us join for a something sense of bigger than ourselves or something better than where we are, maybe that might be another version of it. But it's probably not the the sense of the military we have when we leave, yeah. Right, and I think part of figuring out transition, and I haven't quite found it's not healthy transition, uh it's deliberate. It goes back to that idea of deliberateness what has happened to your sense of the military as you've progressed through your career through your time in the military today, because that's going to form a lot of how your sense of how you're feeling as you leave. And for some people it might be 80% brilliant, 20% a bit rubbish, for some people it might be 10% was okay, 90% I feel abandoned. It might be um anger, it might be disillusionment, I mean it could be physically you've been injured in some the I mean, and with no one shy of what happened in Afghanistan and and in Iraq, we we're fully aware of all that. So the reasons people leave the military the reasons people join and the reason people leave really are very different. And if we don't acknowledge the difficult moral values, you're kind of almost getting into the moral injury space with some elements of that difficulty, um, but there's plenty of other stuff there as well, so that's a huge bit, morals, integrity, um, service, values become a huge bit of your deliberate transitional thinking.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Um and it can that can happen in civilian life as well. It might happen slightly differently because why you joined and and all that, but you can still have a sense that this company no longer aligns with the values you want to live with. Um, and so your transition is based on your your moral compass as well as in financial need and other things that determine whether you stay or go.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, definitely. And I'd love to speak about that a bit more. And I think I uh just as a side note to myself, I think that that that sounds like the the theme for episode three, that that the deep layered the really deep layers, yeah. Let's go who you are and who you've become. Yeah, because again it changes, and even even if it doesn't change, our perspective of it does, you know, uh over time. So right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Because you're not the person you were when you joined, you know, you've you might have become a parent, you might have you've you you've seen experiences that will have adjusted your worldview. There'll be other things, big things that will have changed your worldview. So but it goes back to that idea of you've you know deliberately thinking as much as is possible about the change and what you want to be post-that change. And the fact that the change is ongoing, but still ongoing.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Yeah, yeah. And and and for some people that when we're turning to look inward, it will yeah, it's uh it's it doesn't stop. No, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

I do, I do what what's interesting, and what what I do see with some people, maybe you've seen the same, is they'll leave the military um for whatever reason, it might be anything, but they'll go into a company or a place that's kind of pseudo-military. There's something in there about I yes, I want to step, but not too far. I want something that's structured in a way I recognised. I want something maybe hierarchical in a way I recognise, values that I recognise. And um, there's some that that's really interesting for me. Uh for me who went into like, I'm gonna go and wait for myself and you know, go and do something completely different to see other people who have gone into a in many ways a very similar organization. Is it's always fascinating. Well, humans are fascinating, right? So but it's just another version of transition and how deliberate was that transition.

Values Ethos And Moral Compass

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah, that's a great point. And I I wouldn't have caught that. So that yeah, for me, leaving the military, I went into the security industry for for 10 years after, which was working with the same colleagues in in the same countries on a different wage and a different uh like rotational period. But yeah, yeah, it was same, same but different.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah, right. So really, really interesting. And and there was no there's no comment about that, just an observation that no judgment uh attached to it at all, just an observation as to why people step into these, or perhaps the other way around, why these organizations are structured like that in order to attract the people who want to feel comfortable within those structures.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. And and and I guess to an extent though, it's because it provides a certain uh repeatability. I'm not sure if I'm making that word up, repetitiveness or predictability, um, and and results, both for for the company and people coming in.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Um it's really it's really interesting because in uh and I'm I'm waiting slightly beyond my remit here, but in when you go into places uh in psychology, people will generally repeat patterns throughout their life, and so and because it's a comfortable space for them. It's somewhere that they know they understand. Those may not actually be the best places for them, but they'll go to them because it's comfortable and they understand it rather than maybe branch out into something new and terribly scary. So there's an element in there of we leave perhaps because something has changed and we need to leave or want to leave, but actually we go and seek out something that's in some ways quite familiar and it feels safe enough.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

That's kind of interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, familiar familiarity. Yeah. Yeah. Even in in in in sometimes, I'll be being guilty isn't the word. I've done this myself, even but going back to clothes, even though the the the what I wear and how, yeah. Although although I've always thought I've lent against that, there's definitely things that even even if it doesn't fall under the military umbrella, wearing a certain type of clothes in a certain place for a certain uh yeah, for a certain impact or to fit in, or yeah, we're going there again.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

So to hide yourself, not to hide, sorry, maybe that's the wrong word, but to put a different kind of mask on. So people who um step out of say the military, but then go into maybe a gothic outfit, gothic dress, they're still in a way, there's something that they're presenting to the world the way they want to be seen. Um, and yet all of their friends might dress dress the same as as well. So it's not about standing out, it's about fitting into a or belonging into a different group. Right. See, who knew even the way you dressed could be so interesting and such a decision marker in a transition, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Who knew? You know first.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Go on, you're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

No, I know I was gonna I was just gonna change, nudge it a slightly conversation, and and I'm curious the work that you've done with Icarus in terms of we talked about last time some of the the like the rocks that appear on on our path on our journey. I'm I'm I'm curious what are some of the most common ones that you've seen with with people in transition.

Familiar Organisations And Old Patterns

SPEAKER_01 24:22

One of the probably one of the most common ones has come from where um a sense of how do I uh not get back to but replicate, replicate the sense of purpose and belonging I had in the military. And it plays out in a lot of different ways. Some people are just very like, I'm just trying to find something similar. Um, you know, we talked about tribes, didn't we, and and isolation last time. Other people I don't think can put necessarily a finger on it, but what they'll describe is um they're almost so intensely working at the work they're doing now, because and you you're kind of like, oh, why are you you know, okay, right? Um and they'll be frustrated by various things, but actually when you dig into it, they're trying to find purpose and they're trying to find the that that bit that a lot of us joined the military for, which was that idea of bigger than self or or service before self. But now when they've come out of the military, they're sort of now trying to find their feet. There's they're they're very unsteady in time terms of well, why it can't just be for financial reasons that I'm doing this job. Um, and there has to be something more to it. Um, and I've I that comes up in various ideas when you're talking to some of the people that um that I talk to. Um having said all that, they're very aware that they need that finance. I'm not trying to say they're gonna, you know, throw it all in because most of them, well, a lot of them have families, mortgages, cars to pay off, whatever it is. But whereas that sense of purpose was inherent when they joined the military, that there's an absence that you can kind of see and feel when they're talking that they're trying to get back to and trying to it sorry, that they're trying to get back to a purposeful work. And depending on how you phrase it, and I'll phrase it poorly, purposeful work isn't always obvious. It's you know, you can feel like, oh, you know, I'm in sales. You don't that and that person doesn't feel particularly they don't even sound convincing that they're they're happy with oh uh happy might be too strong a word, but even they they they don't sound convincing about the job, about the role that they've got. No, that's kind of it's kind of sobering to to look at it like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, yeah, and and and I and again I can't help but feel that that's really interesting and the whole purpose piece as well leads into into episode three as well. But I I think one of the things that I've seen is that the loneliness and isolation, both from a personal perspective and even just like throwaway comments, like no one gets it, no one gets me.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

No one gets it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

And and the story that we tell ourselves around that.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah. And probably one of the reasons we seek those places and those structures that feel familiar is they might get it a bit more. But yeah, the idea that no one no one really understands, you know, and you can see that playing out in so many places, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

And and and I guess because I'm so far removed from that world now, I would almost say it's it that it's it's not an excuse, but that's not the whole picture.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Um there's the there's a for me that when Leo, let me earn this, when I have that come up for me, I choose to see that as a reflection, as a mirror of an opportunity to get to look at something in a bit more in a different way. What what's happening on on the outside that makes that that that triggers a sense of loneliness in me isn't this thing that's happening. There's there's certain, yeah, there's there's a there's a thread that goes a bit deeper.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Takes courage to look at that.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah, it's a great point. And this goes back to not always being able to do this on our own, and again, just to encourage people to go to have conversations, to speak to people that have walked this path, um, that have that have transitions, that have managed change, that have struggled, um, that offer support.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

I'd love to set up a transitional mentoring program for all the services, you know, because if there are people struggling with um anything from you know the really strong stuff like moral injury or mental health challenges and are looking to leave the military or be or being asked to leave the military, for example, there are people out there who've done it. And if we could set up that link for people who've, you know, they won't provide all the answers, but they're there that you could go to and go, you know, help. I am really struggling with this element. Um and then even people who are leaving under their own volition at a time of their choosing, you know, you know, in a good way, there's still plenty to be going through when you're going through transition of anywhere. That having a mentor who's been there before and has done it in some capacity is so useful. Like the number of people I want I I spoke to, like, can you just can you talk to me about how you set your small business up? Can you talk to me about what you thought about how did the pension work? You know, when did you get when did this happen? You blah blah blah. I haven't had a veteran's card yet or whatever it is. It could be from the trivial to the really big meaty stuff of, you know, I've got this real challenge that that this is bringing up for me. I can't even really name it or explain it, but you've been through something similar. What did you do? I mean, wouldn't that be an amazing addition to military translation to civilian life or any transition, any major change, having change mentors, not to not about the like average stuff, but who can go, these are this was my experience. If this resonates with you, get in contact, I'll I'll help, I'll be a mentor for you as you go through it.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, it sounds really that sounds incredible. And I and and even though if that doesn't exist, that that there's so much value in having conversations with people that will hear you rather than well, this is my three-step program, too.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

That's all I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

But but because sometimes again for myself, the when I feel lonely, I generally I isolate more. Um and and often what I so so I stay further and well. So it there's a certain story that builds if I don't catch it, maybe not so much these days, but because I've got I'm so fortunate in the help and support that I've had, that I've invested in, um of the people that I work with, of conversations like these that make me reflect. But the the the ability just to be heard, just to speak without without being judged, um, and sometimes not even being given advice, it's not it's not what we're after, it's just to yeah, to to to be recognized as a as a fellow human going through this experience. I see it. I hear you and it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Can I just observe something you just said?

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Please.

Loneliness Isolation And Being Understood

SPEAKER_01 32:06

You talked about loneliness and then you talked about isolation, and actually you can be lonely one can be lonely in a room full of people. And I think one of the things that um people going through big change can feel is like I feel lonely, but I'm surrounded by people doing stuff, I'm I'm in a busy space and all this. And the loneliness isn't a physical loneliness, it's a it's a mental no one understands. I've got no one who understands. And you know, being alone and and being isolated, and I'm not decrying your experience. I it it definitely is not that. Being isolated might be something completely different. They've someone can be isolated but still feel quite fulfilled because it's either that they've chosen it or whatever. But when the two come together, that's a really when you're lonely and isolated. I think that's that could be really, really challenging.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, yeah. There was something that you that came to me whilst you're speaking there, and it's gone, and I know it's good and it will it will come back. So I'll I'll give that space. But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

And I think and I think when you observe, when you talk about going through changes and transition like that, um it can feel like you're the only person doing it.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yes, there you go. That's what I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

You know, and you can feel like all these boulders that are coming down to block me and get in my way, and like I've just run into this boulder, whatever that particular issue is. And it might be how on earth do I get my own housing, or or you know, I haven't I'm moving overseas, or whatever your boulder is. You know, you can feel like you're the only one with this particular boulder, and invariably actually you aren't, but finding the other people who understand that boulder and can turn that boulder in from a from an obstacle into a stepping stone, that's what you need. That's kind of the mentality of the people that can be useful for you, right? Do you that's the people to seek out is the people that can go, okay. Yeah, I see. Here, let me talk to you about or let me help signpost you, or can I just listen, tell me what's going on, like problem shared, problem halved, or at least a problem acknowledged, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, definitely. And that's exactly what I wanted to say. Uh I am not special in my experience, you know. I'm not the only one. Um, yes, exactly. So it was exactly that. Yeah, at the same time, just to throw a paradox, we are so unique and so incredible in our own, just in our own being. But yeah, and and I think one of the biggest things for me though, coming away from um the my my service was that yeah, so a lot of it was based in physical work and challenge. Where's when when sometimes facing boulders and climbing to the top of them to use them as stepping stones, it's not easy, but there's nothing physical to do. It's not comfortable. So see having those having mirrors held up to us and somebody gently saying back, this is what you're creating for yourself, isn't always comfortable. It's not it's not always easy. Um, but there's so but there's so much, there's so much to be learned from it. So, yeah, a real uh a gentle word of encouragement, like you said, to find those people who will create that and hold that space for us. It's uh it's an invaluable right.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

It really is, and we were talking about well, as they but we were talking about resilience because we, you know, uh hence the podcast, but part of um successful change and transition and adaptation isn't just about surviving or even just bouncing back, because that's one of those words, that one of those places we've had that conversation before, but actually where you want to get to is a point of thriving, like really growing, building, developing, um, you know, moving forward. And so that deliberateness that you know, if you're willing to sit in the discomfort, and it is, it's it's like really uncomfortable, having and and you'll be amazed at the kind of things that you feel uncomfortable, you know. Like what is your purpose? It's a big, uncomfortable, tricky question. But if you can do that, then actually the longer term is you don't just bounce back, you you you you keep going, you thrive. And I think if you can sit in that discomfort, it's uh it's it's hard work, but we're courageous types, aren't we? So this is just a different it adjust, this is a different version of courage. It's a different version of courageous.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah, yeah. I was gonna get cocky into a quote there, but I can't remember it. Also, I'm not gonna. Um that's all right then. I was just making some shit up. Um what for for you? What what's what what does thriving actually look for you to put you on the spot?

Mentors Who Turn Boulders Into Steps

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Oh god, yeah, right. So do I feel like I'm there some of the time. Not all of the time, but some of the time. Um, thriving is I wake up in the morning, I like where I, you know, I like, I look forward to the day. It might not always, it might not be a hundred percent brilliant day, but like I like where I live, I like what I'm doing, um, and I can see building blocks and opportunities and stepping stones that previously I'd have been like, oh God, I'm something scary. But but but now I can go, yeah, that's gonna be, yeah, I'm not gonna enjoy the build-up to that. But actually, if I approach it in this manner, I'm gonna get a lot more out of it. I'm gonna be a lot better, I'll be able to deliver a lot better to what I promised to deliver. So for me, thriving, and I definitely feel I'm I'm getting, I really am getting there, is it's been deliberate, it's been facing the bits where it's really been tough. And going, why was that tough? How do I look at it again? Uh if that comes up again, how do I meet it? How do I handle it? How do I take it on board? Um and also with myself, I did a projection of myself forward. I went, right, if my 80-year-old self is sat on a porch somewhere with a glass of wine, you know, what do I want to look back on? What do I want to have said? I've done this and I've been this person, and and that the stories I get to tell when I'm 80 are sort of helping me drive my decisions now. Because you know, you don't want to be just doing stuff to exist.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah. I love that. Do you do have you done this work on your own or do you do it with with others? As as in have others helped you?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Combination, combination. Um I have I I regularly sit with people who are also coaches, personal coaches, and we do a bit of co-coaching back and forth. That's been super useful. I have done a lot on my own. I do a lot of like journaling. Sometimes it's just pick a word, write whatever comes to mind. Sometimes it's this was rubbish. Why was this rubbish? And then you have to go and do like, I mean, I'm a I'm air crew. We debrief, we do the five wires. Why are you feeling rubbish? Why are you feeling rubbish? Now, why are you feeling rubbish? Why, why? Keep going down because when you get to the bottom, there's something there that you need to go and look at. And um, so yes, definitely I reflect, I do the work. I I'm also an avid reader, and I do I do they're not self-help block books in that way, but they are written by people with a lot of background and experience rather than sort of perhaps the not so qualified people. Um but I do a lot, but yeah, I do a lot of work. You have to. You can't just you can't just surface skim this life.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

You gotta like you gotta go deep. I would disagree. I think I think we get to put that in your pipe.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, smoke it.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

No, but but yeah, no, but there's an important point here because because not everybody has the self-awareness to do that. No, and and and I think that's okay. I think that's okay. Um, but the incredible gifts that we get when we do is is it's so worth it. Um and not everybody's ready to.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

I think there's two bits. Some people aren't self-aware enough to do it. I agree. Some people are scared of it, and they will and they may not deliberately tell themselves that. Yeah, it's just blow-the bullshit. It's just bullshit. Yeah, they'll they'll come up with another reason why they're not doing it.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

And they'll skim away from it because it's too much for them. Yeah. And that's that's not on us. That's they need to it's on them. Like it's if if they want to do the work, we'll walk with them, right? But it's it we can't do it for them.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Right? Lead a horse to water, drink, drown, dehydrate, that's on the horse.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

It's on the horse. I wrote a post about that the other day. Get back on the get back in the saddle, yeah, get back on the horse.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

There you go. Back in the horse. Back on the horse after he's drunk.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Um yeah, yeah, so so so I I I not to let myself off the hook, uh, and I didn't really think of this, but I've not premeditated this. Thriving to me in this moment sat with you, means pausing as a regular practice, not every day, just to think what's these three things that I'm grateful for.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Because life comes and goes, but it's those, yeah, and arguments happen, we lose deals, or little people say no in terms of business. But yeah, exactly that. To be able to yeah, share a meal with my family, for example, um, to be able to have a little conversation, to be able to read my son a book to all those things I'm so fortunate to do. That that to me feels like feels like I'm thriving. Yeah. But it's a practice of practice, though.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Yeah, no, I agree. Real thriving isn't about like big, like, like there's lots of people who think they're thriving, they're not thriving. Real thriving is probably about the smaller moments and the and the the overall willingness to observe and enjoy your own life. There's a great Johnny Cash quote, and he was asked, like, um, something along the lines of you're this super famous country singer and all this. Um, you know, what's the what's the best thing you've ever done? And he says something along the lines of having coffee with my wife this morning. And I'm like, yeah, there you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Yeah, it reminds me of a uh uh Moto GP motorbike rider who's who Carl Krutchlow, who won his first race at 35, and is he was asked by a reporter, is this the best day of your life? He's like, No, no, by far. I'm gonna bastardise his words here, but it it's it's just a day at work, you know. I I I did something with my daughter, or I became a dad last month, or whatever it was, it was very normal stuff. But I don't I don't think you just arrive at that. There's there's a practice element.

Wrap Up And Episode Three Tease

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah, I do, I do agree with that. I think it's a I I absolutely agree with that. I think some there's something about chasing the rainbow and and always going for the glory and all this, and then actually you realize it's there's nothing there. Like someone else will come along and do that rainbow, but to your family or to your partner or to yourself, like you're one of one.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yeah, real thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Coffee in the morning with the husband That's it.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Um Is there anything that we've not talked about today in this in this second episode around tradition that you think we should mention?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

I I think we've got still got some really big subjects that are deep subjects and difficult subjects with regards military transition but transitions and civilian life as well. And I think they're coming. Um but I love conversations like this because we're sort of beginning to wade out into the deeper waters, and we'll we'll go there next time.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Love it. Well, thanks very much once again for for showing up and for for this conversation. It's it's really it's really interesting, it's really valuable, very, very enjoyable and thought-provoking for me, and I know it will be for quite a lot of my listeners as well. So our listeners. So yeah, thanks, and I look forward to episode three soon. Say again, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

I'm adopting your listeners temporarily 100%.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

We'll speak soon.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

So always good to chat.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Likewise. Cheers. Bye.