S3 Ep109 Dr Sharon Pickering: The Permission Problem

You can be disciplined, ambitious, and genuinely committed to other people and still be quietly running yourself into the ground. We sit down with Sharon Pickering, a human factors expert with experience in safety critical environments, to unpack why “permission” is such a sticking point for leaders, founders, and high performers. The tension is not laziness versus drive. It is the deep belief that we are only valuable when we are producing, carrying, fixing, or achieving, and the guilt that appears the moment we try to slow down.

We explore what Sharon sees repeatedly across teams under pressure: a powerful sense of responsibility that leaves people putting themselves at the bottom of the totem pole. From boardrooms to operating theatres, the pattern is the same. When you feel you must take care of everyone else first, rest and recovery start to look like indulgence rather than a core part of performance. Sharon shares a striking surgical story and what it reveals about shared load, communication, and the tiny moments that keep judgement sharp.

The practical takeaway is refreshingly small: micro recalibrations and mini transitions. Instead of chasing the perfect routine or spiralling into endless analysis, we talk about quick check-ins that take seconds, simple experiments that fit real life, and a dynamic “recipe” you can adjust as seasons change. If you want sustainable leadership, burnout prevention, and resilience that actually holds up under pressure, press play, then subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Permission Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to Forge and Resilience, real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today I'm joined by Sharon Pickering. Sharon is a human factors expert whose career began in safety critical environments, including work connected with NASA. She spent years understanding how people operate under pressure from high-stake technical systems to complex organizational environments. Today she brings that lens into the real world of leaders, helping them see where their performance is being sustained and where it's quietly breaking down. Sharon and I are working on something. We're taking a look at the common challenges that are faced by leaders, founders, and high performance. So welcome Sharon, and today we're going to be talking about permission and why it's such a challenge for certain people, certain profiles, um, especially

Guilt And The Problem With Rest

SPEAKER_00 1:20

high achievers, leaders, and and founders. What's your experience with giving yourself permission to take things a bit easier um to rest, to recover?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I love that you just launched into that. Hi, Ron. It's great to be back with you. Um so what's my experience? I was actually I was on a long walk yesterday and I was reflecting on this because I knew we were having this conversation today. And at what point did I allow myself to factor in rest? And genuinely, how can hand on heart admit that it took me a long, long time? It took me a long time because it always felt like guilt, and I hadn't fully appreciated that rest is part of it. Uh, although my career is to educate and train people on that exact equation, I hadn't recognized it for myself. So then it becomes quite an obvious one that it's not just high achievers that are experiencing this feeling. I think it's universal. Certainly, there isn't a conversation that goes by where people are struggling to factor in. So for me, it took me a long time to appreciate it for myself, even with all the knowledge as to why it was so important. Um, and I can now hand on heart declare that it's a non-negotiable, although I still think there are moments where I can struggle with where to prioritize it. So what about you?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah. Um yeah, I don't think it was I don't think it was just about rest, it was permission to have have awareness and look under the the hood at the cover what's really going on. And but the difference is for me now, I think, so rather than getting stuck necessarily with the guilt and trying to trace why and and fix quote unquote, because I don't think there's anything to fix, um, it's what what comes up to me is what's what's it's the systems that I've got in place that I practice consistently, not rigidly. Um so yeah, and and if I was to go a layer deeper, it's around I feel or felt, sorry, past tense, that to fit be valuable, I had to do or achieve. And so if it wasn't through the physical, then it was through the the the amount, the um volume of work that was doing. Because at some stage I'd I'd had a belief that I'm I'm only valuable if I get this result or lift that weight or join this unit or group. Um yeah, and and that might have served for a while, but it wasn't sustainable long term. Um so but I didn't have the awareness of it. Um and I think it goes back to an important point of what you alluded to around that sometimes we don't catch these things for ourselves, we don't we don't see our blind spots for that reason, no blind spots.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, I get all of that, and uh for me it was a belief system that I had to be seen to be constantly doing, um, you know, juggling multiple aspects of life and not actually giving the heavyweight and all the recognition to the part of taking care of myself as as the optimum thing to do in in all that busyness. Um because if you know, even simple things like taking a moment to sit on the sofa and drink a tea, it sounds like basic. They're at the mountains, exactly. You know, that's my ritual now. And and I I you know I hold that with the utmost importance these days, but certainly I I don't want to I can't even put a time frame on it if I'm honest, but um, there's so many factors that play in now. There's like you said, there's the awareness, there is the permission that is front and centre. There's there's also the environment. Um and a lot of that as I think has only been possible because of the way it was before. I may not have been as aware or as as uh you know granted myself permission as I am now if I w if I hadn't have experienced that you know, quote unquote, chaos before. Because it was busy for busy's sake, and I was highly productive for everybody else's needs. So it's super interesting, and I really can't I can't say that I suddenly suddenly woke up one day and went, right, I'm gonna start doing this, this, and this to take care of myself and then built it in. It kind of organically happened

Responsibility That Pushes Self Last

SPEAKER_01 6:41

as the byproduct of uh a number of factors that I probably couldn't even list.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, I hear you. In in in in your experience with working with with teams, especially high pressure and environments, what what do you consider one of the biggest barriers is to giving themselves permission, maybe not just to rest but to to prioritize more their own needs?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Uh I'd I believe it's a sense of responsibility, regardless of whether the individual's part of a team at the same level, they're all at the same level, or whether it's a leader taking care of other people. It's a sense of responsibility and duty beyond recognising that they also have a responsibility to themselves. And so the biggest barrier, I mean, we s you know, we sat down and sat down with m hundreds, maybe even thousands of people across the world. So it's not even a cultural thing, it's not uh economic background or or race issue, it's a human one, and the the theme is really consistent. If I don't take care of others, I don't feel like I'm doing my best. And it and it's just that simple sentence, but then you've got to go multiple level levels deeper to really unpick what does that mean for for the individuals? Does it come from a childhood belief that was imposed? Does it come from the fact that they are the centre of responsibility around not just work but their family? Are they carrying the the the bigger picture of having to having to take care of? So there's a having to, need to, and wanting to. Um so there's there's the three areas that then as we as we get to the point of I hear you, what you're saying makes sense to me, I know it to be true, then you've got to unpick all those those layers. I need to, I want to. Yeah, it's not as simple as just just flicking a switch and suddenly waking up one day and saying, right, I'm gonna actually put myself at the core of this, or you know, you know, I've I've I've ran away ran around the world literally, um talking to people, and and the the term that was the easiest to explain was essentially putting putting oneself at the bottom of the totem pole. It's you know, like not really factoring in that in order to continue to do all the things and be responsible and take care of others, the first thing that must happen for that to succeed is the taking care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And I guess it sometimes, as you alluded to, you're really productive and and and I manage to achieve a lot on on on a on a blurred belief as well, and it works really well until it doesn't. As as in keep on going, doing more, putting ourselves last. Um yeah. And some of us have the opportunity to have that reflected back and and can catch it and another of us have pay a price of with burnout or health challenges or relationship challenges. Um yeah, and and and I also I'm also intrigued that to hear you say about going several layers deep, and whilst yeah, I I I I like that, I like to understand what's going on for me. I also think that can set mm some of us off on a never-ending spiral of chasing or or or trying to understand why and what went on and where does this come from, and it can feel firstly really uncomfortable, and secondly, like a never-ending journey.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Or question questions that never get answered.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

It's it's a difficult experience. I'll just talk from my own personal one. There was there was lightning speed, and then there was stop on several occasions. Neither of those could work on a continuum. So for me, I had to find a way to do almost micro

Micro Recalibration Over Overthinking

SPEAKER_01 11:25

recalibrations, and that's like that sounds super complex, but it's really not. It's just and it's not resets, it's just uh where am I at? What's working, what's not working, how can I do more of what is working, and and take the foot off the pedal for what isn't working. So I found that for me personally, a recalibration approach made much more sense. So it wasn't the go stop. Um, because I think what comes with the go stop is at some point you you do then start to do the analysis. You know, if you're in a stop, why did I get myself here? Is the question that a lot of people have verbalized to me in the professional sense. How am I even here? I know better, you know, and I've even said this myself. I know all the theory, I've put it all in practice for everybody else. And there were moments of my past where I said, How on earth did I get here knowing all that I know? So then the analysis almost became paralyzing. It didn't, and then it was night or day. Am I doing this or am I doing that? So the recalibration for me was a way to not overload my system with analysis, not overload it with right or wrong. It was just to find a way of what's working right now, what isn't working right now. And I found that that was a sliding scale then, and I could do that on more of a continuum than forcing myself to do all the things that were on paper that make sense, like get up at 5 a.m., join the 5 a.m. club, you know. I appreciate that that works for some people, it doesn't work for me. Um, doing a half hour of meditation in the morning completely in silence works for some people, doesn't work for me. We have to find what works for us, and that recalibration didn't really come easy. It took years, and in those years, every micro moment then allowed me to discover something else that works for me and do more of that and build on that. So it became this building block system that I guess it's not until this this type of conversation I was ever really that in tune with. It just was something that I recognized if I if I don't do this for myself, I will crash and burn, and that will be long term, you know. Having done it twice in a manageable way where it wasn't detrimental to my health or my profession or my interactions, connections, or you know, my sanity, I was able to recognize that I have to find a better way.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah, I I when you say go stop, I can't help think sprint crash is more more of a another. That's your speed, not mine. But you well yeah, but it it feels like a sprint uh followed by a crash rather rather than stop go, but yeah. Um so uh in in terms of that recalibration, I'm I'm imagining um uh a surgeon, given the work that you've done who's who's midway through an operation, would would as an example, what what's a mini recalibration they might be able to do uh in those in those moments when when they've got somebody's life in their hands literally on the table? Yeah. Um or or if we pull that out to to business when when constant pressure meetings,

Surgeons Under Pressure And Tiny Pauses

SPEAKER_00 15:20

expectations, um, and demands, what what might a mini calibration look like in the moment?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, uh I think witnessing surgery was probably the most unusual experience of my life in that watching humans literally have other humans' lives in their hands. Um and the term every second counts really does make sense in that situation. However, you know, we're talking I once observed a brain surgery. Uh the patient was awake, which was a most enlightening experience to be able to hear the patient awake whilst the top of their school was exposed. So, yeah, I won't go into details, but it was yeah, sorry, anybody that is eating breakfast, but it is it was definitely one of those I don't even think grounding moments does it justice. But I'm thinking, how how on earth can they not feel like every second counts when everything looks so fragile and precious? Um, but obviously, you know, this is something that the surgeon in question had performed numerous times with with a team that were very competent. Um, and at one point, I mean it was quite early in my exposure to surgery. At one point, the surgeon actually physically turned his head. I was standing behind him, and he physically turned his head and shoulders towards me whilst he had the instruments in his hand on the on the brain of this of this like phenomenal patient and asked me what I was doing at the weekend. And at some point, my head is complete mush because this sense over sensory experience is like, how can you even be thinking about anything outside that immediate zone? But what was interesting was it it wasn't that they thought they were the only one that needed to make sure that every second counted, they had a team that was responsible also, and they spread that load. So we had the capacity to ask a very social generic question, but I was so dumbfounded in this moment that I couldn't even respond, and I wasn't even doing anything but watching. So that that was probably the one where I thought, can humans get any more incredible in what they're capable of doing? And then there's been other situations where simple, I guess a seemingly simple standard operation um has been taking place, and you can just see that the surgeon is so heads down, they're not even really aware that the team is there. They've there there's something more going on. Um so obviously my responsibility was to not obviously to everybody, but yeah, in my world, my responsibility after those operations was to interview the surgeons, interview the team, and just find out a little more about what was going on in their head. And it was interesting, the the routine operation, there was, it turns out there was a lot of stuff happening outside of work for the surgeon. So that crossed into the professional world where everything felt a massive weight of responsibility, and they'd they'd almost lost in that moment the capability to just ask for the help that they might have needed, as in, I just need to take a breather. So, yes, in some circumstances every second counted, but then in the routine operation, it didn't matter if they took a five-second moment and just took a few deep breaths. Um, so part of the intervention that we imposed, created around the surgeons, was to get them to do these almost cycles in their head of is there something that I could do for myself right now that would make this situation better for everybody else? Not in a way that put a lot of you know decision making on them or a lot of time, just some it became quite natural after a little bit of practice. So we we taught them in a in a simulated environment first because of obvious safety reasons, and once they'd gotten to a point where they felt quite comfortable with that being part of the the surgical process, we then transitioned it into live surgeries, and it worked really well because then you could see that communication flowed better, there were less um minor errors, there was more flow to the whole environment. So, and these these things took literally seconds to integrate. Now, so then I took that context and thought, well, what how do we do that on on the street with like masses of people without having to have them in a room and go through this lengthy process of of not just education but then implementation and then practice and then that become so familiar? How do we do that on a daily basis? So I think that's the question I still sit with actually is taking something so powerful, how can we now spread that to the masses so that they don't feel like they need to take a week off to go to the spa? You know, that that seemed such a luxury to me when I was younger to do that. But as you know, I I build that into my week now without any question of it, because now it just feels like a part of my week, the same as this conversation with you that was scheduled.

unknown 21:42

Hmm. Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, there's there's a lot there. I'm I'm hearing in the first example the awareness that that that person had, probably to to separate um work from from the personal life. Um hence the reason he had a capacity to to have a conversation. Um and it's something really interesting you said as well is which is a note that I jotted down just before is understanding that that that recalibration is understanding that we are part of the a cog in the machine. We are not the whole machine um something bigger than ourself. If if we remove ourselves or or make mistakes then that has a knock-on effect that's okay that happens but I'm yeah I I thought it was really interesting um but if we can we can understand our our role and our function um yeah if we're not stuck in our heads and sometimes that takes help and support then we can keep on showing up for ourselves which has a is that has a knock on effect and likewise if we're stuck in our heads and dragging everything around with us that will also have an effect. Yeah one of the one of the things that you mentioned making it available for the masses something I do quite a lot for for my group and for myself is we've talked about this as well is is the transitions thing. What's the the smallest mini transition that I can make um so

Mini Transitions For Daily Life

SPEAKER_00 23:10

that if it's not happening in the moment if that if I haven't got the capacity or the awareness or it doesn't allow it's at the first available opportunity to do something and that might look like some stretches two or three stretches to leave the desk or one two or three breaths before I go back to the family or come into the house or or transition from um from work to to partner or father or whatever it might be. Yeah because we it won't always be the time or space to re recalibrate. Yeah absolutely not everybody's got that level awareness or is it or is it or is it deemed possible and I and I get that.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah and I think sometimes I'm really cautious to label anything with a turb that sounds like it's going to take a lot of effort because you know recalibration sounds like I said before really complex and really time consuming. Sounds like science but what you've how you've just translated that is actually it's just an activity um it it's not an extra activity it's a it's a small activity that gets to influence bigger activities that then they don't become a problem but it doesn't matter actually the the background of the the people I've been working with you know they could have been pilots doctors teachers founders there's a theme of them believing that they've built their life around other people's needs and I and I believe that comes from a service orientated profession um however that looks um and it's almost like you know this is doesn't there's no blame on organizations but performance is is perceived as this matrix where people have to continually keep improving so in those professions I've I've always held this question in the back of my mind of if the individual believes that they've built their existence around other people's needs and it's being validated by the organization in terms of performance metrics, how can we change the mindset of each of the individuals to make sure that that system continues to survive because at some point the individuals are the breaking point and and that's not acceptable in any situation. So for us I mean we've spent a lot of time talking about what does it look like to we've we've coined this term serve sustainably but that again is you know it's another flashy label that we we try to avoid but there's we've got to find a way to communicate what it is that we believe is not just important but almost critical for people that are working in a service role.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

How do you then anticipate people might be able to move themselves towards permission even if it's not under that label because again it sounds quite labelly but I what what's some ideas that come to you in this moment or that have worked for you in your own personal life in terms of permission permission to to to look after yourself so there isn't a a recipe book to be honest you know there's a playbook on the theory there's a playbook on what's been working in practice but I I'm a strong believer that as individuals it's it's finding our own recipe of what's working what's what's not working just back to that simple and that for me feels the most comfortable as well because then it doesn't have to look permanent I believe sometimes when we take on board a what we must do what we should do what we could do we feel like that's a permanent state and I like to believe that a more dynamic state is is much more amenable to real life.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

It's a complex world now and we're complex humans trying to live in this complex world. So why would we try to create something that will eventually break because something will come along and derail it. If we approach it more dynamically and that's what I was trying to allude to before is like what's working right now, what's not working right now let's do it more on a continuum sliding scale rather than this is my recipe and this is the perfect recipe and I've got to stick to that otherwise I'm gonna have a breakdown or I'm not going to be able to serve the best I feel like I can but actually we've got to appreciate that there's a mirror that needs to be you know held up quite often if we're we're really really great at taking that walk with a friend or sitting in an office with a colleague and helping them get to the point where they need to recognize that they haven't taken care of themselves and then we offer all of this advice but the the mirror is often not held up where we look at what's happening with us and and what we could I won't even say do better. I've used that term in this conversation but do right now I mean I I guess that's kind of what I'm saying what's happening right now that needs more attention that isn't going to deplete me that is going to fill my bucket like let's just let's just go with that flow do that more often and then it doesn't have to be I need to go and read these 10 books of how to live the perfect life you know now I think it used to be called the self-help section. I'm not even sure what it's called now because it feels like

Build Your Own Sustainable Recipe

SPEAKER_01 29:20

the whole bookshop is full of things or books material to live a better life. Like I was just in WH Smith's on the airport run through on the way back home and I was amazed at how little I guess fun literature was available. It felt like everything was telling you how to live this perfect life which which then puts this massive weight on us of we're not living the perfect life so I need to now do all these things to make sure it looks like perfection to the outside world. Well in reality you know having having worked with thousands of people across the world there is no version of perfect that we can script out and have everybody follow it's an individual script and I kind of like that. I think that's exciting it's an opportunity for us to share but it doesn't mean we need to copy although it might be okay to copy to start.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah but I think um my my what comes to me if I answer my own question though is is having help understanding how we fit into the bigger picture. So we're not not just this one title or label or thing. There's so much more than that um I think that's the first thing that jumps out at me so it's to remember that I'm not just a business owner. I'm a I'm a father and a father a parent a friend a husband etc etc so there's other there's other systems that my my behaviors interactions feed into and it's starting to understand that um and the next biggest thing is like just to like you were saying is to run almost like mini experiments. Does this work? Does this is this sustainable is this fulfilling for me and a great story of of a founder that I'm working with currently actually is someone that's um introduced uh a weekly paddle uh session with some friends and in in that hour hour and a half he's ticking so many boxes because he's outside he's in social company he's moving his body um yeah and and he gets a lot of bang for his buckets the one of his highlights um of of the week because it ticks so many boxes and then you can go back to work he feels completely different when he goes back to work um a lot more on it um and it's something to look forward to the next time and and if that's not working for him he's got the the freedom to to do a bit less or put it off for two weeks or maybe get two games in a week etc you know so it's like mini experiments not not yeah small stuff yeah that makes a lot of sense and and you know just to caveat what I was saying previous previously it's not just something that we willy-nilly do we have to put some structure around it you know we have to try some things so your example's perfect for that we have to put something in place trial it and then there'll be tweaks to it um so you know it it's like finding your unique recipe but with a with some structure that allows you to you know not go into the performance measure in uh angle but like to to almost measure is this working is this good for me how do I feel how do I feel when I've when I'm in it or when I'm going when I'm in it and when I've finished it and and there's they're equally as important are as are you getting the exercise are you getting the social interaction there's a lot about the feelings that get I guess not um I guess ignored um the the term how do you feel is like typical in the clinical psychology world but in the human factors professional performance world it was always received quite shocked oh you're not a clinical psychologist what do you mean I've now got to tell you how I feel but it's it's such an important question how do you feel about this experience and and when you come out of that and and what part of that can you take forward and embed in your life and do more of in a way that doesn't set the the balance out of whack love it love it. Doc as we start to wrap this up is there anything that you you'd like to mention around around permission or that we've not talked about tonight.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah um maybe the label is too scary I think just you know it's something that you and I are very concerned with the the term permission is very authoritarian it's very societal driven of like right or wrong so don't worry too much about what the label is

Drop The Label And Start Small

SPEAKER_01 34:15

look at what the intention is and how that can benefit the path forward and I guess the flip side of that is don't feel that everything has to be immediate. It is a process it is a journey and and like I said for me personally I can't I can't pinpoint a time and I also am not doing everything my version of perfect so I know there's more to come and that's great because that means that now I've got some structure and I've got a a method that works for me I can do more of that and I know it's only going to get better so if anybody hasn't felt like they've started yet don't feel like they're doing anything wrong remember the micro parts of of the journey it doesn't have to all change overnight and and I know you talk a lot about transitions and that being um a huge journey for people so equally as important love it awesome well thanks for your time doc and uh we'll speak again very shortly as well thanks for having me and it's always great talking to you talk to you soon likewise bye bye bye