S3 Ep110 Leadership Roundtable: Lead Yourself First

Pressure changes people. So does transition.

When teams shift, titles change, results matter, and the stakes keep rising, what does leadership actually require?

In this first official Forging Resilience Roundtable, I’m joined by two returning guests who bring very different lenses to the same question.

Air Commodore Robin Caine MBE brings the military perspective: fast jets, flying training, decision-making under pressure, human performance, and the importance of staying calm when there is chaos around you.

Rich Hunwicks brings the sporting perspective: over two decades in elite performance across rugby league, including England, Leeds Rhinos, Catalans Dragons, and the realities of building teams that can keep showing up when results are not going their way.

Together, we explore what military and sport get right about leadership, what gets misunderstood from the outside, and what happens when we try to lift a leadership style from one environment and force it into another.

We talk about calmness under pressure, humour in adversity, servant leadership, decision-making with imperfect information, the trap of perfectionism, and why the best leaders simplify complexity rather than add to it.

We also get into the less visible side of leadership: loneliness, fatigue, boundaries, support systems, and the discipline to lead yourself before trying to serve everyone else.

This is a conversation about leadership in the real world and the systems that help us perform without losing ourselves in the role. 

If you’re leading through pressure or change, this episode is for you or share it with someone carrying responsibility right now, and subscribe to Forging Resilience for more conversations on leadership, transition, and staying human under pressure.

Reach out to Robin or Rich via their LinkedIn accounts. 

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Save A Warrior works with veterans and first responders facing complex PTSD and the reality of suicide.

Through this podcast, we’re supporting their work.

If you want to get behind it, you can do that by buying a bag of  Major Stoke Blend coffee.
All profits go directly to Save A Warrior.

Good coffee. Real conversations. Work that matters.

Transcript

Welcome And The Leadership Question

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Forge in Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Welcome to Forging Resilience. Today's the first official Forging Resilience roundtable, and the question at the centre of this conversation is fairly simple, and that is what does leadership really require when teams, titles, and pressure, as well as environments, start to change? I'm joined by two guests who come from leadership from two very different worlds. Air Cormodal Robin Kane brings the military lens with fast jets, flying train, decision making under pressure, and human performance systems that help people learn, recover, and operate when stakes are high. And on the other side, we've got Rich Hannocks who brings the sporting lens with over two decades in elite performance, working with teams, athletes, and leaders across rugby league, including England, Leeds Rhinos, and Catalan Dragons and beyond. Military and sport are two worlds that we often borrow from when we talk about leadership. But what do these worlds get right? What do we from the outside misunderstand? And what happens when we try and lift one style of leadership from one environment into the next? Rob, Rich, welcome back to Forging Resilience. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, thank you for having us, Ron. Always a pleasure. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Definitely, gents.

Staying Calm In Chaos

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Rob, I'll kick off with you. Um, I'm gonna ask you, what does good leadership look like in in your environment um when the pressure's high and people are looking to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Um so I I think uh I like the fact that you you talk about pressure. And I I think what good leadership I've seen, and when you really uh look to role models through your career, uh I've always loved the fact that people under high degree of pressure and complexity when they're in those really key roles, um, are the ones who can stay calm whilst there's chaos all around them. And that uh a bit like the Marines with that idea of humor in adversity, you know, cheerfulness in adversity, can actually smile, even find the ridiculousness of it uh a part of the levity of it. And it's a it's a way of coping, but it's a great role model for when people are working around those kind of leaders so that they can um provide almost like a sea of calm and a real sense of purpose and enjoyment whilst you're delivering something really complex and difficult. And that can be, you know, you know, life-changing kind of work, you know, sometimes literally. Uh, but you have to have people who can stay in that moment and not be overwhelmed by it. And it takes it, you know, it takes certain type of people, but it also you can train that that type of people. And I I really admire it. I've had a couple of bosses I've worked for who were just absolutely on point. And I think the the thing that I saw was that it wasn't really about transactional leadership. There's lots of different types of leadership style, and I think it's all very individual in terms of how you lead and in different moments. Literally, you you might be a very democratic leader, but at times you might need to shift that not only uh in role, but within in a meeting, in a in a moment, you might have to shift the way that you do business, uh, particularly on operations. But the ability to stay adaptable and to stay uh open uh is really, really key. And I think the humor side of it is is a great uh, I think, marking point, almost a litmus test, if people can do that.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

So so just to stay with that for a second, then Rob, what what are those people doing well and what foundations have they built to be able to stay calm, to be able to stay humorous? What what key things, if we're gonna make it practical for the listeners, are they holding? Um because I can guarantee they might not feel calm even if they're acting it.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, I I think the main one is is how do you not get overwhelmed by the complexity? So when we say complexity, is it the same thing as pressure? No, pressure is kind of feeling the outcome is going to be uh really uh influential to you or other people. But complexity is not really knowing the answer because there's so many variables. So um I think what we see nowadays is that people get overwhelmed either with information or they get overwhelmed with a scenario, and therefore a leader has to be able to stay grounded and able to thrive in that environment, not just be able to cope, but thrive. So I think one of the key bits that we train and develop is the ability to make decisions with imperfect information or too much information, and really not even knowing when a decision point is, but have the clarity of thought to know when good enough is. So good enough decisions are always good enough, right? Now, that good enough decision could be 100% if it comes from my world in terms of safety. That good enough decision has to be 100%. But the other times it might be 5%. And I think a leader has to know when to press and when not to. And I really think it's that ability to deal with imperfect data. And for my mind, what that does is it much more than before, is you have to have leaders who are adaptable and who aren't, this sounds counterintuitive, in some areas not perfectionist. Because if you are a perfectionist, you have to wait for 100% every time. You have to wait for perfect data every time. And although there is a place for that, there absolutely is a place for that. There are times where leaders need to be able to just go through the pragmatic level of life where things are changing constantly. And I'll give you a good example. I think we've seen since COVID, there have been large geopolitical shocks, there have been large financial shocks, there have been lots of shocks. The world is becoming more brittle and people become more anxious as a result. You've got to be able to thrive in that environment, to enjoy being in that environment, and therefore you need to be resilient and adaptable. You cannot wait for perfect. I think it was always the case, but I think it's even more the case today.

Pressure Versus Complexity In Decisions

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Thanks, Rich. I I noticed quite a few smiles there, mate. What what was landing for you um in in terms of leadership that works in in your world or former world in terms of sport?

Sport Pressure And Keeping It Simple

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Well, it it's an easy answer here to say I entirely agree with everything that Rob said, and uh, we can move to the next question. But absolutely in the sporting context, pressures pressure manifests itself quite differently, usually in the results element of the of the day today, and the huge amount of perceived pressure of winning and losing, and ultimately that's what we're judged on. Um, it doesn't really matter how good someone's yo-yo test or bronco test or bench press is, it's whether we're winning in the 80 minutes of the 10,080 in any seven-day cycle. It's the 80 minutes that everyone's interested in, and and the way that we perform, and and you you know, been in situations where you we would lose a series of games and that pressure ratchets and ratches, and you can be in fear of your livelihood very, very quickly. And and as as Rob said, calmness is absolutely key. Just having clarity, just having an ability to step back and reflect and be very, very solution-oriented in what happens next. It's so easy to get dragged, and I've seen leaders get dragged into what's happened and what's been and what's gone. And of course, we need to review what's been and gone. We need to be better in our practice, but we need to look ahead and we need to look at what are we going to do now. And the you the use of the word we as a collective is pivotal in that. It's not what am I going to do now, it's what we can do together. Because ultimately, whether you operate in a team sports space or in the military or in business, nothing, nothing good will happen alone. It's all about the collective. So, what can we do? And and the leaders that really influence highly and influence positively when under pressure are those that can, and this is very, very obvious as well, those that can keep it simple, the understanding, in my opinion, what the DNA of their leadership looks like, what the DNA, what their values are, and what their framework is, and go back to basics because ultimately, when a team is not playing well and the results aren't coming, it's usually not a lack of competence. It's generally a lack of confidence. And we can rebuild confidence by going back to what made us great, what made us good in terms of system, process, and function. And the competence still remains. 99 times out of 100, rugby players, sportsmen, athletes can still catch, pass, tackle, and do all of the basics because they've been trained and innately trained to do it, but the confidence might have disappeared. So the good leaders that can keep it simple and revisit those principles. Generally, I that I've been around have had the most success. And I applied that in the physical space for the teams and the general preparation of teams over the years when the pressure really ratcheted up. And let's just close that off with simplicity shouldn't be feared because in reality it's the level above genius, in my opinion. Why? Because everybody, everybody can understand what's required. And if we can understand it, we can deliver on it. So it brings it, brings it full circle to keeping it, yeah, very, very, very clear in everyone's thinking and uh and being able to execute in a calm state would make a difference.

Building Process Over Results

SPEAKER_02 9:51

So, how do we, Rich, go about creating environments then that can start to separate us from our results so that we don't get confused and if we are on that losing streak, um, that we can keep showing up and and and trying again?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Building a process-based environment that doesn't focus on outcome is everything. And if we have absolute faith and belief in our process, and we will deliver that generally differently to each individual. Some people will intrinsically want to know the nuts and bolts of any process, they're intrigued to know as to why and how, but others are simply interested in what? What are we doing? When are we doing it? What you know, they don't worry about the why or the how. Uh and they'll and in in team sports, that's a huge spread of individuals and capabilities in terms of thinking. So if we can keep that framework simple and we can keep a framework where we are building on, let's use a phrase, being better each day. Just our behaviors allow us to improve daily. The most marginal to use that word, smallest of gains, littlest of things that can stack bricks for us. That builds, in my opinion, confidence. And go back to that word that we can have a level of confidence intrinsically within our structure. And they in sporting world, people talk a lot about keep it in the bubble. Don't let the media know, don't let the world know. We just do us, and that's the most important focus. And I do believe in that significantly, that every environment will be different, every framework will look slightly different, although we've all been educated the same way or read the same books, but it's how you apply it to your people, and then developing those people to understand that if we take care of the process, and I'll break it down to this most simplistic form, the best coaches I've seen operate could say, if we complete so many tackles and we kick so many times, we execute to that pattern, our percentage chance of winning a game is X. And when you have that level of confidence and you know exactly the process, the outcome will generally take care of itself. It also gives a reassurance, in my opinion, that when it doesn't, and there are so many variables in in sporting context and and I would imagine in the military, um, so many variables that can influence the outcomes. If we have controlled everything that we can within reason and we have got that framework that allows us to have the confidence, then when there is a variable that does the bounce of the ball, it's as simple as that. A referee indecision does change the outcome. That's not the reason. We are not the reason for failure. The variable is that we maybe couldn't control, and it's being comfortable with that and knowing that we're giving ourselves a higher percentage chance of success by going through our process, which is bespoke to us, and we're committed to that collectively. Again, we are committed to that, not as individuals, it's a collective buy-in.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Love it. Rob, when you listen to Rich speak, when you've gone through your career and when you look at sport as well, what what things do you think that that sport do well that we could learn from in terms of the military as an organization?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Uh I I think we're trying to learn right now. Uh, we're linking up with uh Sports UK, uh their elite coaching cohort through Danny Carey. Um just there's so much in sport, business,

Borrowing Between Military And Sport

SPEAKER_01 13:19

and other areas that have got some real value to add. Uh and I know we've talked about it before, but one of my favorite bits that I take into work every single day is by Tim Galway, and he was a sports coach, and he did the inner game of uh tennis and golf and then business. Um, but it comes down to what Rich was saying: your performance is your potential minus your interferences. By staying in your bubble, you're trying to minimize those interferences. If you're trying to create confidence through a process that you can understand and deliver on that increases your confidence, which actually is increasing your potential. So just by those two things alone, you can improve your outcomes. And I really love that because it's such a simple, beautiful equation and it comes from sport. And actually, Tim Galway wasn't a psychologist, he was a sports coach through and through, but he just had this really clear way of communicating. And I think when I was listening to Rich talk about clarity, it's it's so important. I think one of the things that really great leaders do is they can simplify complexity so that you can use it in contact. And I the the best art I've seen of that, and it is an acme of genius, uh, it's a military one, but it's it's it's one that I I really admire. So when Montgomery took uh charge of D-Day, essentially, uh you can imagine that is one of the most complex missions that's ever been planned. And there's reams and reams and reams and reams of data and books and all sorts of things that are gonna define how everything worked. And he realized that when the actual mission started, it was gonna be chaos, absolute chaos. You could think same Private Orion. Now, what he needed to have was nobody would understand those plans. Even he wouldn't understand all those plans. It was impossible to do so. But what he needed to do was distill it down and communicate it to a way that a private on the beach would understand, a pilot above the beach would understand, a sailor on a ship would understand, and the prime minister would understand. And he basically wrote an A4 picture. He he basically distilled down the key points of what he wanted to do at key points during the mission, and that A4 page is in the Imperial War Museum in London. And for me, it's it's it's the absolute acme of genius. He's taken complexity, which was needed, and brought it down to simplicity in execution. And I think if you're in the middle of a rugby league game, with all of the pace that's happening around you and all the outcomes that could happen around you, you need to have a framework to allow your brain to work. Because our brains are not designed to work uh very well under that pressure. And I think that's that's exactly what Rich was describing. So I was nodding vigorously.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yeah. I think I'd like to add on as well there that the success of a sports team, any sports team, any athlete is not solely dependent on the 13 in my case or 15 in rugby union's case, individuals that are in the arena on the day in that 80 minutes. It is wholly, wholly reliant on the organization. And when we talk about the complexity of that specific example, a sporting organization is a hugely complex animal. And albeit the outcome is to win at the highest level, how to do that is hugely complex. And there are so many stakeholders that contribute, and you would be amazed at how much certain elements can influence performance, for example, media exposure, player availability time, infrastructure around travel, budget, expenditure, etc. It all factors into what happens on the field. And being able to master the head coach, particularly as the the leader, whether it's a manager in football, whatever they term it, they now have the sport and director space which supports that in most sports. But and that was very much my role as almost COO, as a head of performance, performance director, to take care of everything other than picking the team. It's making sure that you've got all of those stakeholders aligned and understanding what's required in the simplest form again. So whether that be the kitman, the the individual who cleans the boots, the chef, uh, the psychiatrist, the welfare manager, every stakeholder had to understand implicitly the simplicity of what was required and how to get there, which you go from one page of A4 for the organization. And if you as a leader can distill that down to each individual knowing within three to five bullet points exactly what the mission is and how they're going to achieve it, then we're into something special. And once you've got that alignment, then it then it really moves and you get tempo and momentum. And that's maybe maybe the secret, and maybe also the downfall, in my opinion, of many great organizations and teams where satellite areas that are significantly influencing are not aligned to the main mission.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Rich, what what do you think? Um, again, just to take Rob's question, that the that sport can learn from the military, or or couldn't for that matter, what wouldn't work if you tried to impose it into a sporting environment?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I I think the the biggest commonality that I've seen, I've been very fortunate to be exposed to some really high-level practitioners in the military, as you as you know, Ron, and uh particularly through the special special forces and Marines,

Hierarchy Questioning And Servant Leadership

SPEAKER_00 18:47

um, high calibre individuals, which has which has been a blessing and and and I've learned so much. The biggest commonality is a relentless consistency of just keeping turning up and understanding that things don't happen quickly, things happen by repetition and by intent. And and I admire that greatly about the the system structure and hierarchy within the military that uh we could learn a lot, we can take a lot from that in sport, and a lot of organizations really particularly we we're talking a lot about change here in this topic, particularly organisations that are changing, understanding that there will always be evolution, there has to be within the team, within the organizational structure, but being able to be relentless with turning up and and understanding the basic identity of a group and you know, speaking specifically around Catalan dragons and their identity as a club, um, very much forged in the Catalan people hard-working region of the south of France and southern Spain, grit and determination, and and that resonated highly in that specific example with and the values that I have and that I see in the military of it is all about hard work and it is about graft and it is about being being willing to be built in the Borean, so to speak, and do the basics very, very well. Um we tend not to, in sport, have maybe such a clear-cut hierarchy and rank status. It doesn't exist formally in many organizations, but informally it certainly does. And sometimes helping individuals recognize that and also help them recognize that they have value at any level, every level, they have value and how they can influence is key. So I hope I haven't digressed from the question too far, but there's certainly um a huge amount of commonality, and uh yeah, the characteristics of individuals of just being willing to work hard, I think, um, from what I've seen generally is is really significant in in the alignment of of the pro-sport guys in the military, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Rob, what what comes to you as you listen to Rich talk there, mate?

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Um, so one, how similar it is. Uh I think the military I joined uh a long time ago, um, I I think was more hierarchical and uh has become less so. I think we've taken some of that element from uh sport and business. Um, but I still think that's maybe one thing in the military where uh there is some hierarchy and it is more defined through rank and position. Uh, but I always think if you are uh leading through a command rank, like if you have rank on your shoulder and you think that's gonna be the reason people are gonna follow you, uh you're not gonna be there very long. Uh it's absolutely the case. But I'm sure that's the case in sport. You might you might be the the chief coach or you might be the leader of the players uh in terms of your position in the team. But if you're not doing a good job and you're n you're relying on some sort of positional hierarchy, then you're just not gonna be there for a long time. And I I think maybe If I go back further, the military maybe had a not questioning culture. So in some ways, when it's an existential threat, you sometimes have to go, you need to do that right now. And I think that's that's important. But when it comes down to could we do things in a better way, we have I see a massive change in that, where I expect my team to question me. In fact, I find it really great that if I go into a meeting uh about what we're going to do next at strategy, um if my team don't question me, I I would I start looking around for cameras and going, what's going on? Um that it's just not natural not to be questioned because we should be pressing on that. Um I think the only difference about what doesn't work is is um it's a subtle one on culture, where ultimately um by the time people are on the pitch playing, um I don't think in the military they can really be uh questioning why they're there. And uh you really have to have it it doesn't mean you have to start the military and understand exactly what you're doing, but I do think when you go through onto the front line, you have to understand your role within that. And it's it's not really the time where you put up your hand after uh several years of of very expensive training and say, yeah, it's just not for me, and and leave. Um, where you can do that in business and you can do that in sport. And I want people who are intrinsically motivated to be in the military to do something which I always think is service, something bigger than yourself. And uh uh yes, it's it's it's gonna be uh interesting and great fun. You're gonna fly jets or you're gonna uh be working in in cool organizations um and with some really interesting people, but you want to have the cultural readiness to be able to go off and do your job, uh, which for the Air Force is fly, fight, and win. And I want people in the mindset to do that from day one if I uh if I can. Uh, but by the time they're on the pitch playing, as as riches players are, they need to be ready to go. Uh, and I think that's important. That doesn't mean they can't question, but I I absolutely think they need to have the mindset that they're there to do a great job for um the service.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Does does that speak then, Rob, about the the questions that you like to have when you're delivering strategy about the culture that you've created? And is that reflected across the the military in general, or is that just within the organizations that you've worked with and and had that both modelled and and and lent into?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Uh I'd I'd love to say I was uh 100% different from everyone and I lead great teams. I I don't think that's the case. Uh I see across the military uh just a much more progressive form of leadership, uh, much more EQ as well as IQ, uh, actually much more practical in how they do things, much more connected to everybody in the organization. Uh it's not perfect. If anybody says their organizations are perfect, they're probably lying. Uh and I I think it fits in different parts of the system. So how I led when I was director of operations might be different to how I lead in flying training, for example, or how I led when I was in a cockpit flying over a country. So I think you have to choose and and and be adaptable in your leadership style. Um, but I think the the key bit is that you as a leader can be adaptable to that situation and allow the culture to support you and for you to support that culture. I love the army view of servant leadership. I think that kind of sums it up beautifully.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

If I remember, that's something we talked about, Rich, isn't it, in uh in our first conversation, servant leadership.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah, the the servantile approach is is right at the forefront of the way I I operate. I I was there to serve everybody else, facilitate everybody else to be the best they could be, the team, the coaches, the environment. And it's you the the best guys I've worked with, the Kevin Simfields, Jamie Peacock's, the trophy laden leaders, um were very much heavily servantile in their approach. They were also transformational, they were also quite strategic, and they were also very, very adaptable in in the moment, in the heat of battle, whenever when it needed to be, um, delivered in a different way, is a different tone of message. But um a word on a note on the word perfect, I I believe perfect's a fallacy. I don't know what perfect is, I don't know whoever achieves it, because if we are striving to be better, we will never really be truly satisfied, and there will always be something that we could do more of, less of, change invariably, and it's being content with trying to be better and not pursuing perfect that makes makes the ideal recipe, in my opinion. The servantile thing is interesting, however, because we want people that are there to serve and offer uh value to everybody else. So, what can I do for you, not what can you do for me? Key phrase. But within that, my thinking's developed quite significantly, Ron, from when we last spoke in that within that servantile approach, you have to have a huge element of selfishness as well. And you have to lead self first, and that takes an element of prioritization, discipline, and recognition and self-understanding. Because if we are not, if I am not in the best possible state that I can be in, I cannot possibly lead my team in the most effective manner. I certainly can't lead a business in the best possible manner. And I can interchange now in my thinking team with family. I need to lead and support and develop and influence my family. I can interchange business with life, but if I haven't got myself in order first, I can't serve everybody else. And I'd been down that road of prioritizing everybody else, not a story for today, potentially, and and now being able to articulate it. But we need to be selfish. We need to make sure we are serving ourselves and then serve everyone else, which comes into maybe links into um a bigger topic of team ability, which is a phrase used sometimes, I believe, in the US, and uh this skill to be able to lead when we need to, but also follow when we need to, which is maybe another strand from this. But if I'm not at my very best in conclusion, I can't possibly make the best decisions, be the most strategic, influence effectively for everyone else. So the whole recipe erodes really without that at the forefront, but I can still be servantile in nature, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

How do we then stay grounded enough to stay come from a place of service rather than leaning too heavily into people pleasing or conforming, do you think then, Rich?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Oh, great question. I think the we always have to have, and I was guilty of this in the past, uh, an ability to say no. To strategically decide and evaluate what is going to be of benefit to us and everybody around

Self Leadership Boundaries And Balance

SPEAKER_00 29:06

us. Um to do that, I think the clearest thinking is made when we have balance in our lives. And I see this very, very frequently in the corporate sector: a lack of balance, homeostasis is a scientific term, just that ability to stay in equilibrium. And that is a very dangerous space to fall into, a lack of balance or homeostasis, because we start to get a brain fog put simply. The sensory uh and nervous system is affected heavily, our decision making is affected, and we tend to go down the road of making poorer decisions when we are out of sync and out of balance. And very few people who operate the highest level can truly recognise that. The truly great ones, in my opinion, can and can stay near that near that balanced space. And it does ebb and flow day to day, week to week, month to month. The difference between acute and chronic fatigue is tiredness. The buzz phrase in the health space at the moment is allostatic load, which we all call stress, isn't it? You know, it's being stressed, and uh, and then how we all know how we make different decisions and we're willing to receive information differently when we're tired and stressed. A very simple example: you get someone telling you a story, they want to give you the information, they're using 5,000 words, and all that's running through your mind when you're tired and stressed and under pressure is spit it out, get to the point, I haven't got effing time for this. Any different day with a good sleep and good balance and good uh clear thinking, you're willing to receive that information, you're willing to absorb it, you're willing to reflect on it. Take your time, let me know every detail, no problem. Give me everything you've got, and then we can make a decision together in due course. That's a completely different response. So, how do you stay aligned to being in the right space? Is understanding yourself what you need, what your triggers are, what potentially the alarms are, and and timeposts to you being out of balance and then being able to recorrect. So we go back to the first question of our conversation about performing on the field or as a good organization and the process, what do I need? What is my daily process that makes me the best version of me? And when I go away from that and I drift, and we all do drift, being able to reset and that will influence our behaviours and allow us to influence everybody else. Um, that's that's something that everybody will deliver in a different way. And when we come to big organizations as we deal with, that's a lot of moving parts. So yeah, are we ever going to get everybody in perfect harmony and balance and alignment? No, but we try and get near. That's a challenge of day to day.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Yeah, I love that, Rich. And and again, same for same for you, Rob. How do we make sure that that we stay um grounded in in ourselves coming place from place of of of serving rather than than over pleasing and and anything else that you picked up on that that Rich was talking about there, mate?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

So I think uh saying no self is uh is a real it's a real skill. So I've definitely had some coaching on that where uh I was encouraged to go, if it's not hell yes, then you're not doing it. Um and uh then also mission command, using your team as much as you possibly can is is really important to the point of being uncomfortable. Uh and that it's easy to say, but it's hard to do. Um but it is absolutely essential. And the further you go in organizations, I think the more essential it is to be able to do it. I think the the key bit, I reckon, is how do you end up with a culture that allows you to do that? And that culture has to be a learning culture. Uh, Rich was talking about, you know, there is no such thing as perfection. I I agree. I think one of the key bits is high performance is not really where you're at, it's the ability to continuously improve so that you can achieve your potential, uh, maybe even increase your potential. And you only get that continuous improvement if you're open, honest, and transparent about where you are and where you make mistakes. And I think if I look at the cycle that sport does, which is prepare, perform, and recover, and that's that's really well embedded into sports psychology and sports physiology. Um, the Air Force and aviation use a very similar format. It's prepare, perform. Then we do a hell of a lot of debriefing, so review, but then that final bit of the cult cycle, which is learn and adapt. And I think you have to have all four, and most organizations don't really have all four. Uh, they might do two pretty well, they might do a third replacing, but what you end up with is less as identified kind of world. Um, now coming back to perfection is how do you know when you've got it wrong? And that only happens if the leaders and the team are all open about their errors. And I think the the real difference I've seen with sport um is that it is a competitive world. So when I get a team, um you know, I've got to train the people in my team, and the weakest link is is now this the the point of the team's capability. So I have to raise everybody up to get to a certain point. In elite sport, if you're not cutting the mustard, you can lose your job. And people can be Olympic athletes for 12 years and then overnight not be the top athlete for that that grouping and be out. And that is a very, very different environment. Um, so when I'm talking about open, knowledge, transparent, then people aren't really worried about that existential risk to themselves in the same way. Um, you might you might not be a fast jet pilot, you might become uh another part of the military, but you're unlikely to lose your livelihood over it. Whereas Rich has to deal with a world where he only has a certain amount of slots for a certain amount of players and a certain amount of talent, and everyone has to continually deliver. And that is I think that is a really hard bit of leadership for elite sport that maybe I have some more luxury with by not having that particular pressure.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Rob, what what do you think is one myth around military? Uh the military around leadership that people would learn to leave at the front door.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Uh I think there's probably two bits. The first one is definitely everyone thinks we go around shouting. Um I just think it's really because you see. But you are in the RAF, mate, so that's uh that Yeah, exactly. There is some shouting, but there's not a lot. Um it's like blackout, shout, shout, and shout some more. Um, I

Myths About Military And Elite Sport

SPEAKER_01 35:43

just don't see a lot of that. I really don't. Um, and uh yes, you might we're in a gun battle, you might need to shout, but um, there's a difference about you know people just shouting at you to get stuff done. That that just doesn't really happen. Um and I think uh the other part is the kind of top gun-esque view of the world that uh this idea that if you think you're dead. Um now there is something to that with sport where I want people to be able to work intuitively and really, really fast. They need to be able to have the confidence in that intuitive expertise that they've developed uh to be able to deliver. But they also need to have the ability to switch between fast thinking and slow thinking, and then have um the metacognition, the ability to understand where which mode you should be in is really, really important. And actually, there's loads more time, even in sport, than most people realize. If you look at, um sorry to use a football analogy, but if you look at Leonel Messi, when the ball's coming to him, he's not analytically looking at, you know, how tired are my opponents, where is their disposition around the pitch. He has just got this thin slicing ability that Malcolm Gladwell described to understand what's going on simply by looking around. He'll be looking around constantly and he'll see opportunity three or four seconds before it's even there. But he's probably doing that mixture between really fast thinking and really slow thinking, and also going at the same time, how am I doing? Because if I'm blowing, if I'm doing 180 beats per minute because I've just been sprinting, my decision making is going to be less clear than it will be if I'm 120 beats per minute. Um so I I think that ability to flick between the two is really important in the military, and I think those are the two bits that the people uh who look at the military get wrong. They think we're shouty, we're not, and they think we are uh like top gun and we're not.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm hearing um deliberate ways of being to create the space to to have some awareness before there's action taken. And this goes back to the the question I asked earlier as well, I think, um, around um creating boundaries and and harmony as as Rich alluded to. And and yeah, in terms of sport, Rich, what do you think is a couple of myths that you'd be keen for people to forget or or understand better?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Uh firstly, probably there's two. Firstly, uh that the highest level of sport is the simplistic, uh, the most simplistic in the way we deliver. It doesn't get more complex the more elite you get, it gets simpler. And some of the most fundamental and basic of programming, fundamental of structures and disciplines and deliveries that I've given have been at the highest, highest level. World Cup pre-World Cup finals, for example, keep it simple. Some of the most complex programming and tools that I've used have been at development level, where I'm really looking to get an inch, a centimetre again. Um, and it's a very different context and it's understanding where that applies. But at the highest level, it's generally simplicity that rules and getting everybody, as we said earlier, getting everybody to understand that. So and once we've mastered those, let's call them world-class basics, which we refer to frequently, it's repeating them and repeating them and repeating them, and that brings me into the second point, is that I I believe there's quite a misconception that being an elite sportsman, elite sports coach, or living in that world is easy. Uh, it's certainly not going to war, let's put it in perspective, but it is far from easy because we can most most of us can do things consistently one, two, three times a week. We can do it every week, we could do something, we can go to the gym every Saturday. We oh, I'm consistent, I do it every weekend, whatever it may be. But to be truly uh elite in sport, you have to be uncommonly consistent, in my view, and that's where the best, both in leadership and coaching, deliver that it is an unconditional daily process to be at the highest level, and that sleeping, eating, recovering, so prepare, perform, recover, all of the basics that contribute to being physically and emotionally at the highest possible level you can be at. And to do that relentlessly, 24-7, pretty much every week of the year in most sports, it is you don't turn it on and off. That's challenging. So it is far from easy, and there are many, many sacrifices to be made with that for the typical mid-20s elite athlete in any sport, male or female, there are many compromises that life would like us to lead us down a road of doing certain things that we have to say no to, and that is difficult. And then the the challenges around in it would imagine it's very similar in the military, huge amount of time spent travelling, huge amount of time spent away from your family, huge amount of time, huge amount of occasions where you have to say no to something that you would like to say yes to family birthday, wedding, whatever that may be, and the emotional sacrifice that you give, so and that everybody gives to commit to the collective cause. So those two things really, and I would challenge anybody who says, Oh, well, you know, you only train four to five hours a week physically. That might be the capacity. You go, well, what do you do with the other 163 hours that are available in a seven-day cycle? Well, when you commit to all of those basics, there are very few hours that are out of your control and available to you to do whatever you like with because the process is so rigorous. And I would imagine that's very much the same in mission preparation in the military. Yeah, that it is a it is a full commitment to a cycle, whether that be a week, months, a tour of duty for us when we go on tour, it can be three months away. It's huge. So, um, and that is not a woe-is me story. I think that's a myth that it's and you look at particularly let's use football. We can all look at football as well. They earn a lot of money, they fly on private jets, they get the best hotels. That is all brilliant. But I can tell you, every one of them would trade that, if possible, within reason for time with their kids, being at home with their wife, being able to have human connection. The reality is it's not quite as simple as it seems. So whilst none of them are moaning about it and it's not a hardship, we're not living living in squalor or challenged in that way, it is very different to maybe general perception.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

It comes to an important point of of not comparing, and I think it goes back to the distinction of I am not my results, and and really and and and just because I'm looking over the fence um at sport or military, that doesn't mean we can't learn, but neither should we compare. It's it's yeah, so it's there's lots of really interesting things there. Thanks. Um, Rob, for you personally, then when when you've um been in your most testing times, I know we alluded to this a little bit in our last conversation, but what are some of the some of the systems that you have created both for yourself and for people that you work with to be able to look after themselves? Um, especially when, yeah, they're probably lonely, they're probably isolated, and the last the last thing they want to do is uh the basics, they'd rather um distract themselves or or

Support Systems Resulting And Gut Instinct

SPEAKER_02 43:05

just be comfortable. Um, yeah, well what's what's some of the things that we we could we could learn from uh to again to make it practical?

SPEAKER_01 43:13

So I I think the support is really important. So um that could be your family, uh, it could be a really good friend, it could be a coach or a mentor, but just having those people you really trust who will come and tell you when you're getting it wrong, uh, and that can be from any position in the in the system. Uh I've I've worked with three outstanding leaders and they just happen to be cleaners um at various different bases that I've worked at. They were really good at spotting how the squadron was, they were really good at spotting how I was, going, Are you all right? Uh at the right time and and having the trust to talk with them. And that they were brilliant local leaders in their communities, running their own businesses, just incredible people. And I really, I really disdain when people um just Look at someone from their position in society and don't look at the person underneath that. It really, it really gets my notice. Um, so I I think that's really important to have that ability to have support. Uh I also think it's really important to recognise that family is a key part of that and getting the balance right that Rich talked about is so important. Um, I think the other bit that that's maybe not as straightforward is um it's this thing that Annie Duke talks about in her book. And I I love someone who, anyone who is a neuroscientist and a poker player, I mean that's pretty cool, right? Just much don't you if you want to make money, play me at poker because I'm terrible at it. Um but she talks about this thing called resulting, uh, where a lot of the time we judge uh our success by the outcome. And uh I've I think I've learned through my career that um you just have to make good enough decisions with the information you have at the time. And so when I come to a decision point and I have to make a decision, then I have to make it with the best evidence that I've got and then move on. Now, if it turns out that that's the wrong decision and the result is bad, that's fine. And being able to disconnect myself from the fact that I made it might have been absolutely the right decision, but the result was wrong, that's fine. But I could make the right decision and end up with a fabulous result, but it it's about the decision. And can I learn from what happened in that position so I get better in the future? And her example is really simple, where if you're a drunk driver and you always drink drive and you keep going through red lights, you might get away with it thousands of times. Does that make that good decision making? No. But if you're a uh you know, a sober driver and you're driving inside the rules of the road and you go through a green light and a drunk driver then hits you, does that mean yours was bad decision making? Well, clearly not. You were doing the right thing and you were improving your chances of success. But disconnecting sometimes between the outcome and your decisions is an important part. Now she calls it resulting, but um Rich described it as you stick to your process and the outcomes will come. All you're really doing is making your own luck, you're improving your chances of success because there's things like luck and fate and other things that you can't control. So you just that has really helped me uh provide a more stoic attitude to decision making in life.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Adding to that, I think we're talking about doing the right thing, decision making based on doing the right thing. Yeah. And if we are focused on the outcome that we need, the the collective outcome in our decision making, generally we will be doing the right thing. If and this resonates really strongly with me, and you see this frequently, if we're making decisions based on ego and our own personal agenda, we are generally, I would lean towards we're not always doing the right thing. Uh we're doing something based on our needs rather than a collective, then the outcome may be maybe challenged in that in that respect. So, and if we do the right thing, we make those we generally we will get positive outcomes. As as Rob rightly said, you may not get those outcomes, but it's it's driven through the outcome-oriented process rather than ego.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Yeah, two things I'm gonna I'm gonna push back on slightly in terms of how we language things, and I'm curious what what comes up for for you both individually. Um, balance and the right thing. So for me personally, I don't think balance exists, and both of you alluded to it, but I think it's really important point to hammer home for people listening that that it doesn't sit in perfect back to that word, harmony, uh it doesn't sit in perfection. One week it looks like something. One week it might look like X amount of time at work and X amount of time with a family and this time to rest. And another time it will look very, very different where work just goes down to one hour where the rest of the time is with recovery and the other time with our family, for example. So I think there's there is it's for me, it's it's about harmony and understanding where I'm sitting, not trying to perfectly stack it up to work. Um, for me, that's an important point. And the right thing, the morality of our decisions, I think it's really easy to then sort of layer a sense of judgment, both of ourselves, if we are attached to those decisions we make by making them right or wrong. Something that I've been experimenting with through my coaches talking about it in terms of efficiency or effectivity. Um, yeah, it's more efficient, not uh and effective not to drink and drive when we go through the lights than it might be, even though there's a morality to that potentially. Um what what do you hear in that, Rob? The replacement of balance with harmony and and and right to efficiency or effectivity?

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Uh so I think the only standard that really matters is can you look yourself in the mirror in eight when you're 80? Uh so you can did I make a decision that deep down I thought was right? Uh and I've taken some really important decisions uh in life and on operations that I know will replay in my head for the rest of my life. So um that that is a moral standard. So can you can you hold yourself to those moral decisions? Was it right? Now it doesn't mean that the outcome necessarily was right, but you're trying to do the right thing at the time. Now, the Air Force uses uh values that it's called rise, respect, integrity, service, and excellence. And I think people like Simon Senek or Patrick Lincioni talk about making judgments based in line with your company's why, your values. Now, I think that means when I'm making decisions, I have to go, am I showing respect? Am I holding my integrity? Is it for service? And am I trying to do an excellent outcome? Now, if that doesn't inform good decisions that I can look myself in the mirror when I'm 80, then I'm probably making the wrong decision. And I think part of that is just listening to the subconscious on the back of your neck. That moment when you're going, I just feel uncomfortable about this, and you don't know why. You sometimes you'd be, you know, analytically it's fine, but there's just something there. I think you should always listen to that because that is often telling you that something is not quite right. Uh, and you should trust those, those intuitive elements of your own personality and your own gut feeling. Because that is a part of confident decision making. Uh, I think the bit about um balance is right though, like last week was manic for me. Um, and uh it it ebbs and flows. But I think what really helps is this understanding that you can you can pick up drift in your life. So you know if you're prevaricating a lot or you're not doing the things that you need to do, those world-class basics under pay uh under pressure at pace, um and just know that you can recover back to it. So there will be times you have to dominate one bit because that's what is required, but you you know you're now in drift on the other bits, so you just have to plan in how you're going to get back to that harmony and just that ebb and flow. Because life is going to affect you, and you need to have the ability to bend with it. Uh, and that's what I think uh Rich is talking to in terms of balance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Yeah. I I have a phrase there on um, they call it win it back. And quite often, well, very often, things don't go to plan. We all have a great plan, don't go to plan. That can be daily, it can be weekly. And the win it back um terminology really resonated and worked for me around training loads and exposures because quite often coaches would change their mind quicker than the weather. Well, want to do more, want to do less, want it to look different, etc. And we'd always have typically a very, very detailed loading plan for the players physically so that we could progressively make sure we're developing, etc. And I would frame that in my mind and only my mind, right? If we've missed something, something's not happened, we've been unable to, due to a constraint, achieve what we hoped to, or this didn't work for whatever reason, how do we win it back? Where do we win it back? It wasn't a case of excluding it, forgetting about it, was where can we win it back? And by being strategic and thinking and contemplating about that and the whole the big picture, so being able to live in the present, that that day, that minute, that session, but look at the bigger picture, whether that be the week, the month, or the period, depending on how many games we're playing, etc., we could generally, I could generally factor in with good planning, being able to win back those elements at different times without really anybody else being aware of it. And I've applied that principle to myself in a different way. I call it really rainy day, and go, if this doesn't happen today for me, and these are my non-negotiables, when is it going to happen? And it will happen this week at a different time. So um, yeah, using that that little that little bit of mindset of going, well, yeah, it's not the end of the world, the process hasn't fallen apart. Let's talk, you know, James Clear's atomic habits, and and most people fail because they can't be consistent and they'll they'll miss one and stop. Well, let's change the mindset and go, we've missed one. When are we going to do it? When can we fit it in? It can be done if we're adaptable, flexible, agile in thinking and doing, and and and then we have far more chance of success in that in that space. So win it backs one. And then I do agree with the gut instinct part of all of this. I think that's absolutely key in decision making because the gut is a highly complex part of our physical anatomy, and it's there, and the gut instinct is there for a reason that we generally can feel. And we've talked a lot about sensory challenge in this conversation without realizing it and sensory perception, and and actually our gut can tell us a huge amount. So if we if we have that intrinsic feel that something's not right in our decision-making process, we've talked about having a circle of trusted friends, confidence, maybe one person that we can share with or or exchange with, have a conversation, and and sometimes just to verbalise and articulate our opinion can help our clarity of thinking. And giving that process and that that due time to make the best decisions, then we give ourselves every chance. But don't ignore your gut, is my my feeling on all of this, excuse the pun, in that generally your gut is right. I have a really specific example in the last three months, and it was actually only last week where I said to a friend very clearly that I should have really well, my I actually said my gut was right. This is what I thought, and this is where I are now. We've been through an extensive process in that specific example, and and it wasn't wrong, it was just giving everyone within that particular example due time and due diligence and due support to to evolve them to be what they could be. But my gut was right, and it was quite a nice moment in thinking, well, have I failed as a coach, as a professional? No, um, I've given them every chance, but my gut told me at the beginning what the outcome would be. So uh not to ignore that. And then final point the man in the mirror element of going to bed. I use that a lot, going to bed knowing I've made the right decisions and being balanced in my thinking and reflective. I think that's absolutely critical. If everyone, if people are getting leaders are getting lost under pressure uh in the decision-making cycle, that I would go back to one basic of if you can go to bed at night knowing you've made decisions based on the right reasons based around the outcome with integrity, and you've ticked through ticked off uh conversation, consultation, pure thinking, clear thinking, then yeah, you can sleep tight at night. The outcome might not be exactly what we want it to be, but you should be able to sleep, and and that's a man in the mirror thing. So, and generally the highest level of operators um can look in the mirror and and it all they see when it's looking back is integrity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Nice. It reminds me of the point uh the the need to practice as well. We kind of expect to make gut decisions if we never give it the time or space to lean into that. Um talking about basics there.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

And and be willing to get it wrong. That's you know, we've got to be vulnerable. You we're not always gonna get it right. If you per sport in phrase, paralysis by analysis, you know, we can do we can look at so many plays, so many different scenarios. Be willing to get it wrong, you know. And if it's all the decision making's been made with the right intent, the right process, or the best possible process available in that given time, that's high performance. Then if you fail, be prepared to fail. We look forward, go back to where we were 35 minutes ago of being solution-centred and looking at the next thing rather than looking too hard and and you know vilifying ourselves for whatever reason, there is no need. Uh, and then if you have the right people around you, that will be far easier as well.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Love it. Rich, Rob, thanks so much for for your time today. I think we're gonna start to wrap this up slowly. But Rob, is it is there anything that you want to mention or that we've not talked about, or that you would like a thought that you'd like to leave us with from today, mate?

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Uh I would just uh absolutely echo Rich in saying that you are gonna get things wrong to uh as human and everybody uh gets it wrong. And the analogy I always use, because I think it's um it's it's so well known, is

Learning From Mistakes And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Neil Armstrong when he he went on to the moon, um, had rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed uh his first few lines, and um he was known as the coolest operator. Like his heart rate was uh calm even in the most complex emergencies, both in combat, as a test pilot, as an astronaut. And what he was meant to say was it's one small step for a man, it's one giant leap for mankind. But what he ended up was a mistake, and he said it's one uh small step for man and one giant leap for mankind, much more prophetic. And so the mistake is actually where the best things happen. And so don't worry about the mistakes. We all get it wrong. It's the openness to go, I got that wrong. And actually, that does your credibility as a leader much greater. Everybody saw you make the mistake, so just own up to it. You want to minimize your mistakes. Obviously, that's the whole continuous improvement thing. But absolutely what Rich was saying about that, you will make error. Uh, I made some terrible error just last week where you get transactions wrong or discussions wrong or the issue choices right. I get that wrong every single week. Um, but looking forward rather than just backwards is really, really important. So amen to that. Love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Same to you, Rich. Anything that that you'd like to mention or or highlight as we start to uh round this conversation out, mate?

SPEAKER_00 58:34

I'd echo that. Our best learning comes from our mistakes. Um I've made many. It's really easy when you, as you well know, Ron, when you stand up on stage as a keynote or you get the luxury of delivering to a corporate group and to tell them the highlights real of your career. And the reality is I can say I was part of contributed to teams that won nine major trophies. I was also part of teams that lost five major trophies, including a World Cup final, losers' medal, runners-up medal. Who wants one of those? So you you make these things happen, you know, it's not all linear, and and the best learnings are are often from those scenarios. And then secondly, I think this this whole discussion has been framed around one of the most important things as a leader is asking questions. And and we've touched on it numerous times about having a curiosity uh as a figurehead, whatever level you lead at, to ask questions and listen. Listen intently to the answers, don't just ask questions oblivious to what comes your way. Listen intently because it's amazing what we can pick up. And that ability to be curious and to lead with questions is hugely empowering to the people around you. If you can lead with questions rather than directives, I've seen a transformation in the response I've had from people personally that I coach and deal with by adopting that process. And I was inadvertently doing it for a number of years in the sporting space, but now I'm far more conscious of it. And if you can frame everything that you do as a question, one, you will get great information back, and two, you'll be well received, is in my opinion. And that's great leadership, and you will have significant influence. So, yeah, keep being curious. And I'm grateful for the questions that you've asked here. They've made me think. I'm grateful to Rob for the insights he's given because I've written, been scribbling as we've been talking, and I've got three or four key things there that I'm gonna go. I need to dig into that. That's really exciting me and challenged my thinking. Ron and I offer, so to wrap up before we came on, I was saying every day at the moment is a great conversation and a great challenge because there's always something that I want to learn more about from the back of that. So I'm very lucky in that. And uh yeah, we'll finish with a thank you for having me. Very much appreciate appreciate it, both Ron and Rob, for your time and engagement. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Thank you both. Awesome, gents. Thanks very much. Well, the luxury of this, uh, Rich is when we get the nod, we'll get to put this out and you can listen back to it, mate. Um, but yeah, likewise, I've thoroughly enjoyed it. There's lots of things for me to to reflect on there, gents. So um I appreciate you both, appreciate your time, and people can find out where to reach you in the in the show notes. So thanks and uh speak soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Thanks, Rob.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

Thanks, Rob