S3 Ep114 Kirsty Ward: The Resilience Trap

Kirsty Ward spent 11 years as an RAF engineering officer, working on aircraft and armaments where precision wasn't optional. She was also, by her own account, on track for early promotion right up until chronic ill health and burnout took the choice out of her hands. She's now the founder of InTah, helping high performers build careers that don't require self-sacrifice.

We get into two things worth sitting with. Firstly, the resilience trap. Kirsty reframes resilience in a way that challenges the UK stiff upper lip mindset. Resilience is not endless endurance. It’s the ability to recover, stabilise, and step back early enough to see the real problem before you burn through your health.  Mistake one for the other and you end up treating your own toughness as the problem, pushing harder because pushing is what got you praised before. She calls it using resilience as a stick to beat yourself with. The trap isn't weakness. It's staying in the fight past the point where staying was ever the right call and not noticing until your body makes the decision for you.

Second: the boundaries that actually hold. Not willpower, but diary blocks treated like unmissable meetings, and a baseline built before you need it because by the time you're asking for help, you usually need it immediately.

We also talk about what it's like to lose a job title that used to answer the question "who am I," and what success looks like once you stop borrowing someone else's definition of it.

To find out more about InTah or get in touch with Kirsty find her on LinkedIn or Instagram. 

Subscribe, share with someone who’s stuck in the resilience trap, and leave a review with the one boundary you’re going to set this week.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Big Question

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Forge and Resilience. Real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Aaron Hill. Join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life, so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today on Forging Resilience, I'm joined by Kirsty Ward. Kirsty is the founder of Inter, a chartered engineer and former RAF engineering officer. She spent 11 years working in safety critical environments across aircraft, armament, and injection sheets, where precision mattered and failure was not an option. But after experiencing chronic ill health and burnout, Kirsty began to question the version of high performance many of us are taught to admire. Her work now focuses on sustainable high performance, helping driven professionals lead, grow, and succeed without a constant overwhelm, exhaustion, or self-sacrifice. Kirsty, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Hey, thanks very much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Is there anything like you'd like to trash from the the intro there?

SPEAKER_02 1:05

No, I um it's interesting hearing other people's uh opinion of what you've been talking about. So no, I think you're uh about spot on actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Oh as as we alluded to, it's not it's not me. I I can't take all the credit for that. Um Gary, as I call ChatGPT, help me. Gary.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Thanks, Gary.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Do a bit of the background work.

From Vet Dream To RAF Engineer

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Um Kirsty, for those of us that don't know you, give us a bit of a canter through your your story.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Um yeah, so I um had an interesting, I wasn't the six-year-old that dreamed of joining the Air Force or flying a plane. Um I actually wanted to become a vet. And then it transpired that I was no good at chemistry. Um, and so someone said, Well, you know, this is you enjoy leadership, you're good at this, that, and the other, you enjoy being outdoors. Um, and so they they kindly sponsored me through university, which meant that I got to go white auto rafting and things. Seemed like a great plan. Uh, but yeah, so I ended up as an engineering officer. And um, it took me all around the country, places around the world, uh, on a combination of aircraft that I didn't even know existed when I first joined. Um, and yeah, some good, some bad, some ugly. I'm sure we've all got dit that do that. Uh, but yeah, it's um it's taught me a lot, so wouldn't have had it any other way.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah.

When Burnout Sneaks Up

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Um you you talk a bit about your your burnout, Kirsty. What did that actually look like for you if we were to to witness that?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Um I mean, being honest, it snuck up on me. And I was very much, like I'm sure most people listening are of the mindset that it won't be me, it's someone else. Um I also didn't know it was burnout. So it was insomnia, sleepless nights, working at stupid o'clock, working weekends to try and catch up with my inbox. I mean, I don't know if anyone's ever caught up with their inbox or if they just delete everything and start afresh.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Holy cray.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

But it basically got to the point where um I call it resentment really more than burnout, where I felt like I was dragging myself uphill with the world tied to my legs. Um and that it wasn't, you know, that I remember in my early 20s when I first joined someone saying to me, Oh, we can tell that you're a fresh face because um you aren't yet apathetic about the military. It still it still keeps coming off to my of my brain every time I think about it. But yeah, so for me, it wasn't it wasn't what I thought burnout looked like. Um and essentially I burnt out because of my resilience. I burnt out because I kept pushing, and that's what I thought resilience was. So um I know it's it's a word that is still thrown about and used in different ways, um, but for me it was ap apathy towards life life, the universe, and work.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

In in terms of that the the this this sneaking up on you, the the need to constantly perform to to to constantly try and clear the inbox among many other things, was was that a self-imposed expectation to do all those things?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

I mean, great question, and it's come up a lot. I think the honest answer was when I first joined, I joined for six years. I hadn't intended on joining the military, you know, say it was never a lifelong career plan. Um, and I just enjoyed it and just see how it goes. The real difference for me was when I actually started doing quite well. And then it was suddenly like, oh, and then people talk to me about promotion and this job. And if you want this job, which you'd be fantastic at, then you need to have done X, Y, and Z. And you need to be demonstrating, you know, that you're capable, um, potential for the future. Thinking about I always talk about doing your boss's job and answering your boss's questions before your boss even knows that they're questions that they've got in their brain. And so for me, I think the thing about high performers is quite often you're you're that kind of type of person to begin with. Um, but if the environment around you not just doesn't rein that in, but actively act like um is proactively trying to make you do more, be more, achieve more, then there's not really anything balancing that. Um and particularly in these kind of professions where people are surrounded by other people who are driven. You know, if if you were surrounded, if you were the one in the hundred people that was with that kind of mindset, you might think differently. You know, they might always come back to you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And if you're surrounded by other driven people who have no boundaries and work at weekends and are constantly pouring into everything, that becomes the norm and you don't really question it. So absolutely, I take responsibility for things that I did that didn't help the process, but I also look at it very much like, well, I didn't know any better. I genuinely believed I was doing what I'd been encouraged, taught, mentored to do. Um, and when you're in an environment where no one questions it, then why would you?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah. I

The Cost Of Pushing Through

SPEAKER_01 7:08

can't I can't help but notice, and correct me if I'm wrong, a certain level of acceptance there and responsibility, which I I guess is a big part of the process of letting go and moving on.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Oh, it's taken a lot of time, I'm not gonna lie. Um not to say that I ever didn't see my responsibility in it, but for starters, I it was it was hard when so my career was sort of a career of two parts. The part when I was doing really well and I was okay to just keep pushing, and then the part when I was really struggling and asking for help and everyone kept looking at me and going, Yeah, but you look fine, crack on, get back into it. Um so I think if if the military had done everything it could and I was fighting against it to work harder and they were going, No, come on, hang on, slow down, then I think I would have been like, Okay, yeah, that was on me. But because it was the opposite, it was me by the time it took me to acknowledge that it wasn't okay to be like this, and it wasn't okay to be awake at three o'clock in the morning thinking about emails, um, and then actually go and sort of seek help, ask for help. It then took years after that. And the biggest thing for me about that I've learned about burnout, and a lot of, you know, they talk about the body keeps the score, and they talk about um about the fact that you're if you keep pushing through, eventually your body will decide to take time off, whether you want to or not. Like you don't have a choice. Um, so my burnout came as a result of a lot of other health issues that I hadn't taken. Um I I'd done the classic thing of just push it to one side, you know. If you imagine your car, you've got a dashboard full of amber uh warnings, and you go, yep, you know, which weirdly as an engineer, we always joked about it'll do a trip, and you just never do that. You never throw someone in an aircraft going, be all right, mate. Yeah, exactly. You're like, like, so you know, we uh as an engineer, we maintain stuff, MOT cars, and you're like, and yet we just don't do that for humans at all. We just do the exact opposite and go, yeah, it could be fine, back on, like push harder, put your head down, ignore it. And you're like, yeah, it's it's great to be trained to, and you know, for operational reasons, you absolutely in situations like that need to be able to push on and ignore whatever. But how often, you know, what percentage of your life are you in that situation, and what percentage of your life are you back home still worrying about things that really, in the grand scheme of things, aren't actually that big of a deal?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Well, they're a sneaky old bunch, the military. They definitely know how to recruit well and and and play on certain traits. And and and and yeah, whilst I wasn't in the same role as you or in the same leadership role, but I an example of what used to work there but doesn't work here in in life, is uh we were always taught as young Royal Marines, like it's your weapons first, then your kit, and then yourself if you're lucky. And so yeah, it's the the onus was yeah, put yourself last constantly.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

It has been interesting starting my business because I remember we were always taught task team individual. And then when I started my sort of resettlement transitioning out of the Air Force, um, it was very much like individual team task. And I was like, hang on a second, have we fundamentally got it wrong for decades, centuries? You know, the the military teaches you that, and you're like, actually, unless you exactly as you say, and when it comes back to even infantry, like if you don't look after yourself, you are the you are the weakest link, and yet it's all great in training in theory, and then you move to the real world, and then they're like, Yeah, but ignore everything we've just told you, it's all about what you're achieving, not looking after yourself.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

And and and I told you that we're just finished recording the podcast with with Sharon, my mentor, and and we were talking very similar things, and exactly as you alluded to, it that system was working really well for you, and you're getting success, and it works really well until it doesn't, and by that time that's exactly it.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

I think the problem is that um if you imagine on a graph, it's great, it's great, it's great, right up until you hit the cliff edge, and then you fall pretty quickly. Um, and exactly that there were lots of things I ignored because on paper I was doing well. I was, you know, recommended to promote ahead of my my peers, so that's what your focus is on. Um, what do I need to do to get there? What do I need to do? And particularly in the military, where almost the only way of rewarding people is promotion. Um, they don't do bonuses, you get, yes, you get might get an award, but I always talk about the fact that people get awards, but you might get it from someone who you've never met before, who knows nothing about your life story, he doesn't, wasn't there, didn't see it, didn't actually, and you get a certificate, and it's uh it's a nice ceremony, don't get me wrong. But is that what we actually feel is rewarding?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Hmm. So

Boundaries That Protect Your Energy

SPEAKER_01 12:24

if if if if we make an assumption, Kirsty, that there's certain traits, um, and that given you are a driven individual, that some of these habits might sneakily follow you whatever environment you're in, if that is an assumption, what do you put in place now to to prevent well exactly that um this sneaking back up on you from a practical sense?

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is um what you know and having boundaries in place. I I plan things into my diary now that I never would have done before, uming that I wouldn't do it otherwise. So like I put in space in my diary, I actively like it's in my diary as if it's a meeting, um, and then I plan around that. Whereas before, you know, I um joked the other day about going from meeting to meeting, you know, rushing from one meeting to the next meeting, scoffing your lunch at your desk while you're desperately trying to fire off an email before running to the next one. Um whereas I just I just don't do that anymore. So partly it's a mindset shift, um, partly it's I've actually physically changed my routines and habits to try and build it in. And don't get me wrong, you know, because that's how my brain works, there are days where my brain overrides that. Um but it becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly. And what is really interesting is now when I do work with people who are still how I used to behave, it's a vast difference, and you can see it like sometimes it's a bit uncomfortable for them because they're like, oh, it's a bit slow. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm not gonna apologize for that. Like, I'm actually quite proud of that, like, because it's taken me a while. Um, I've had to undo decades of assumptions. Um, because you know, you your formative years zero to seven is where you pick up lots of values, beliefs, limiting beliefs, etc., um, how the world works and your understanding of it. And for most of us, you it's not until something happens that you really start to question that. So I think it was it's taken a while. Um and I still have moments where I overdo it. And then it goes, and then I get to the point where I'm like, did I actually enjoy that? Did I need to do that? And sometimes the answer is yes, in which case you kind of chalk it up and go, yeah, cool, fine. Um, but if your baseline is different, then that definitely helps.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

I I love your angle that you you that you bring into this conversation and that we're gonna base it around of being over-resilient or relying on on your ability to to be over-resilient and constantly tip into that.

Resilience Versus Endurance

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Talk to us a little bit more about that. What what might we be misunderstanding um uh about resilience potentially?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Um, yeah, so exactly as you said earlier, in terms of recruitment, the military's great at recruiting people who are naturally resilient or at least display that you know, and it's not just the military, emergency services, anything where it's quite adrenaline heavy and they just capitalise on it. Um but for me, I think the mistake we've made is that we maybe misunderstand resilience. Because actually, resilience is about your ability to bounce back from something, not your ability to keep enduring everything that the world is throwing at you. Um so it's not about not rocking the boat, it's about your ability to get back to sort of a stabilized state once the boat has been rocked. Whereas I very much thought it was about coping. Not just not just coping, but coping so that no one else noticed that you were struggling. Um and I think that's a big thing because you know, and that comes into not just what you're dealing with, but your wish, want to ask for help, how likely you are, how long it's going to take you before you admit you need help, what kind of help. And the problem is, the big problem is that for um definitely for me, it took me years before I was willing to acknowledge it. And at that point, you really need help. Because if you've got to the point where you're like, Yeah, okay, I need to do something about it, you need help there and then. You don't need help in two years' time once someone else has come on board, and you don't need to be having to convince them and advocate for yourself. Like, that's the point where you're like, I'm now struggling, I need it now. You know, if you imagine someone you're drowning and they go, Yeah, cool, we'll send the RNLI, but you just need to prove you're drowning a little bit longer, and we uh just yeah. So I um I very much think of it in terms of the opposite of which I know is a bit controversial, um, but it's not that we're not resilient enough, it's that we're so resilient that we're almost using it as a stick to beat ourselves up with. Um, and that we're using resilience as endurance, not resilience.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, some something I I kind of um we might have discussed this when when we when we had a chat, but um yeah, kind of annoyed at myself of picking that word within the title of this podcast. But um and I kind of want to divorce myself from it. However, it does highlight to me uh as you alluded to that the the misunderstanding or uh our own personal interpretations of it. Um as you allude to why it might become a trap. Um we get stuck in certain cycles. But but even even so the bouncer back ability. I can't remember who challenged on me, challenged me on this now, but they uh I I feel like I want to swear just to add emphasis, so I will. But it's like you're not a fucking bouncing bull, you're not a bull, you're not a fucking bull, you're human, but there's an important point there about yeah, the human element to to us as individuals about yeah, taking the recovery, learning and adapting, not necessarily always coming back stronger after a kick in the teeth or other sensitive parts of the body.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Um yeah, no, and I think I like there's very much the idea, and I definitely was exactly the same. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm talking from my own learning, I'm not hypothesizing on other people, but um, in your 20s, it's always like, Oh, it won't happen to me. I'm kind of indestructible. I'll just I'll just keep going, be fine. Um, and then I don't think until it happens to you or someone really close to you and you can see it firsthand. Um I've got friends who are still very much like, oh, it won't happen to me. And I was like, Yeah, I thought that. I I absolutely thought that. Um, but um again, there's you know, they talk about um like health and family being, if you imagine you're juggling being glass balls and then work being a ball made of elastic bands, you're like, you can you can drop the elastic band ball and it it will come back. Um you know, it'll come and you can it will bounce, even if it doesn't bounce towards you, it might bounce away from you, but you can grab a different one or whatever. But with health, even if it doesn't smash there and then, it's definitely not gonna come back exactly as it was before. Um and I think a lot of people are quite naives not the right word, but burying their head in the sand about it. Um but the stats are awful, like of you know, type A people, there's one one in four of us are gonna become disabled before uh pension point. Which is, you know, is is significant. Like if you if you knew you had a one in four chance because of the way that you're working, of not living the life that you planned because of something that you have an influence over, even if you don't have control over it, you probably do things quite differently, but it it's always the oh yeah, but I'm the I'm the other people. Um so yeah, I think I think I've come to terms now with the idea of you can be you can be resilient. We talk about our you know, people being resilient, but I think resilience is much more a resource rather than an identity. It's something that you can practice, tap into. Um, but the more we think about being resilient, the more we're forcing ourselves to endure stuff in order to prove something, um, rather than and you know, like resources, if you don't treat it well, it might not always be there when you want it.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah. I'd I I I see it much more as like a foundation of basic human needs that that when those buckets are topped up, it enables us to to yeah, catch things that are sneaking up on us, yeah, or adapt to certain situations or changes.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

But foundations can crumble if you don't look after them.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Oh, 100%, yeah. Or once they get pressure tested, then they'll crack. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

So so from from your own personal experience and with working with the people that you do, w why is it you think there's there's such a a trend to lean so heavily um on on cracking on on Endurance.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Um, I mean it's a couple of things. I think humanity in general, you know, there's so many, particularly bore Brits, of legacy carryovers from world wars that you know, because you you're taught by your guardians, who were taught by their guardians, who were taught by etc. whether it's parents, family teachers, whatever. Um, but I think there's Daniel Priestley talks a lot um in some original books about sort of education being based around the Industrial Revolution, and we're just not there yet. Uh sorry, we're just not there anymore. Um, and I think you know, combine the stiff upper lip of Britain with World War, don't admit your feelings, and um just crack on, where our education system and a lot of our upbringing is still based around that kind of mindset, then join the military where they go, Cool, thanks for the great foundations, we're absolutely going to capitalize on that.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

That's that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Um, and then as I say, like you're an environment of people who believe the same and aren't going to question it. So I think you know, we can talk about stigma around health and whatever else, but the um the idea of being weak is probably one that is a bit difficult um in terms of vulnerability, is not something that's known in that um sector. Um, and courage absolutely is praised. So um I think a lot of it is about education and awareness and just what's become normal, and perhaps trying to just challenge that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah. So what potentially has been an antidote for you to the to the stiff up a lifter stip upper lift mind like lip mindset and and enduring.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

I mean, the honest answer is that I got so ill I didn't have a choice. Um and it was quite funny. I remember getting signed off work and I'd gone to the doctors, and I basically was like, look, I'm not I'm not moving from this waiting room until someone is gonna do something different because you've you know, this has been years of going on and off, and giving me two weeks off

Hitting The Wall And Resetting

SPEAKER_02 24:52

where no one's gonna cover my job and I come back to two weeks worth of emails plus all the stuff that I had before is not resolving any problems. You're just you're just kicking the can down the road, which I think we do a lot, um, particularly in publicly funded organizations, because they're just it it's uh it's not business minded in terms of money or efficiency. Um and because of the jobs you're doing, there's a lot of times where you kind of just have to get on with it. But I think coming back to your point, I had I not got that ill, I probably wouldn't have taken it as seriously as I now do. Um and it was awful. But the silver lining of all of that is I've learned so much about how it can look, how sustainable high performance actually works much better in terms of what you can achieve over a lifetime rather than what you can achieve in a decade. Um, and more importantly, how you get to enjoy life if you do that rather than you know, I've I had a 10-year period of going, yeah, my life is amazing, and then I've had a 10-year period of going, and now I can't do any of the things that I want to do as a result of just keep pushing through. So um the the recovery period for burnout, but like even if you have chronic ill health, that you know, the clue's in the title, it's chronic. It's not it's not gonna just miraculously disappear. Um so yeah, I think it's difficult because ideally what I'm trying to do is prevent people from getting to the low that I got to. Um but sometimes it has to get bad enough that you want to do it. You have to do it for yourself, don't you? You can't, you know, you can spout all the all the information in the world, but unless someone wants to change their life, then they won't.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

What does high performance or sustainable high performance look like then after for for you and for some of the people that you work with after they've been through some of your processes?

SPEAKER_02 27:01

And um, I mean, one of the big things that we talk about is what's your definition of success? Because I think it's so it's so easy to particularly growing up, of this is what success looks like. And if you're not there, then try harder to get there. Um, and for a lot of people that's not even their idea of success, anyway. So they're like actively pushing

Redefining Success Beyond Work

SPEAKER_02 27:26

themselves and striving for something that doesn't really suit them, doesn't really matter to them, isn't really what they want. Um, but they're held against a scorecard of where they're at in comparison. Um, so a lot of the work we do is about not just what your success is, but why you're doing activities. So with every activity I do, I don't necessarily think purely anymore about what I'm doing, I think about why I'm doing it. I'll give you an example. Um, so fitness for me um is a big one. I ran because I had to to do a fitness test and I hated every second of it. Um because I enjoyed sprinting and I just was not a steady state runner in any shape or form. Um but I loved weights. Um, but it was always do this to increase your fitness to do X, Y, and Z. And now quite often I I'll go swimming and I'll go, I'll swim slowly. Because for me, swimming is not just about physical fitness, it's about mentally. You know, when people talk about, oh, I go for a run to clear my brain, like that never happened for me. I'd spend 5k going, I hate running, I hate running, I hate running, I hate running. I'm like, I'm like, life is too short for us the whole time like that. Um so yeah, so for me, the big thing that has changed and that we um build as a foundation is looking at why you're doing something, not just what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yeah, I love that. So uh to to use the question that you use with people you work with, then what what is your version of success today, Kirsty?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Um so a lot of it's changed now that I've become a business owner rather than employee. Um, but for me, success is going for a walk with the dog at whatever time of day is convenient to me in the sunshine. Um and having the capacity, brain capacity, and enjoyment to do that, to be present, as as much as it is about creating something that is going to help people, as much as it is about uh feeling purposeful, it's sort of about having that freedom as well. Um and it's taught me a lot in terms of, you know, people you can think about success in terms of sort of tangible things, money promotion, job titles or whatever else. Um, but it's and not to say that isn't important because I think for a lot of people it absolutely is, but having having my idea of success and living that is way more important to me than struggling, failing, putting loads of effort into your idea of success or someone else's idea of success that just doesn't work for me. So um, yeah, I think you know, we we all joke about work-life balance and like whether whether we're ever gonna get there. Um, but actually earning less but but enjoying life I found much more valuable.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah. How was the transition from going from an employee to to business owner for you in terms of creating your company?

SPEAKER_02 30:47

So I mean, utter carnage leaving the military, mostly because I was medically discharged. So I went from you're fine, get back into work to getting signed off, and then they suddenly went, Oh, you're really quite ill, aren't you? It was like, Yeah, I've been telling you this for years. Um, but they didn't know what was wrong, they didn't really seem interested in finding out what was

Leaving The Military And Identity Shock

SPEAKER_02 31:14

wrong. It was just cool, you're no longer convenient for us, so we're gonna get rid of you. So that I found really quite hard. The thing that helped was I'd come up with this idea for the business um about five years before I actually enacted it. Um, and this is a primary example of what you think success is. I mentioned it to a friend when I first came up with the idea, and she went, Yeah, that's great, but you've got a job. And that was it. Okay, fine. Um, so it was actually another friend who started her own business that sort of encouraged me to think about it. And it was very much like I was doing um an executive master's as alongside a ridiculously busy job. Um, and so it was like, cool, once I've handed my thesis in, then I'll so I think for me it was that was the blessing that kept me sane while I was leaving military. Um, but I I've learned so much about myself through the process, and there's also stuff that I've learned from other people um in terms of their sort of experiences and the what I wish I knew at 20, but you know, kind of if I if I had to redo it. Um we always joke about hindsight being a wonderful thing, and I'm like, it I'm not saying it isn't, but I think it just reminds you what you feel like you should have done, which isn't necessarily that um, but it has been it's been really interesting because I feel I always thought felt purposeful in the Air Force, but I now feel purposeful and aligned in my bullet in my business, um, in a way that I definitely didn't when I was serving. I was I was masking a whole lot in order to try and look like I fit fitted the model.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

How did you get clarity or start to get clarity on becoming yeah aware of of purpose and and and actually living into that?

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Um great question. I don't know, I couldn't pinpoint when it started, um, but when I came up with the idea for Inter, it was very much we were on an eck on a military exercise in the States, and we had the weekend off for Martin Luther King weekend. And so we basically got released into the States for four days, off you go. Um and I had a great experience on that that particular weekend, but the team that I was working with, plus the fact that this particular exercise was one where there was there was space in the day to work hard and then space to actually enjoy and live life. And it was probably the first time that I was like, this is what it's meant to look like. This is how how do we how do we recreate this? Um so I think it probably started in 2015, but it's taken a whole load of iterations of oh, but does it mean this? And then every time you get a new life experience, you go, Oh, hang on a second, maybe I need to question that again and revisit it and whatever else. Um because I think that the main thing that I noticed when I was serving was that my purpose was my job. And I definitely felt like I had purpose because I was in the military and I felt like I was doing something useful. Um and that I felt encouraged by it and motivated, and you know, oh, for the first however many years I probably was working stupidly hard because I enjoyed it. And you know, when when you're doing something well, you want to do more of it, don't you? Um and it wasn't until all of that started crumbling that I realized that purpose can't be just your job, because if you lose your job, then who the hell are you? It was it was a real sort of like identity check of, you know, I'd done by that point, because I'd done a couple of years um as a cadet at university where I'd already got the mindset of becoming an engineering officer, even if I hadn't got the job title. Um, but my whole adult life had been Hiam Kirsty and I'm an RAF engineering officer. And then all of a sudden it was like, Hiam Kirsty. Don't really know how else to describe what I do or who I am or what my life looks like. Um, and you can people can make real good assumptions from that job title about who you are and what you do and how how um successful you are, and how much what kind of person you are and what how driven you are. Um and so it yeah, it's it's kind of helped me to decouple purpose from job title.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, I'm I'm hearing the distinction between who you are and what you do, it's it's two separate.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Yeah. And um being what what your value is in the world is not necessarily about how much you earn or what LinkedIn says that you are.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah. What is it generally people come to Inter for?

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Um so the irony of the whole thing is I genuinely believe that Intar I always thought was what I was looking for but couldn't find. And that if I had found

Intar And Practical Steps To Stabilise

SPEAKER_02 36:36

it, then I probably wouldn't have ended up being med discharged. Um but the idea is a sustainable high performance network. So rather than just focusing on, you know, particularly in the military, you have a career manager who's actually not a career manager, they might manage your next job role, but then definitely not managing your career. You've got mentors who probably also influence whether you're going to do well or what your next job is or whatever else. So it's not really a truly independent mentorship model either. Um, coaching is starting to come into the military, but mostly for upper leadership, um, you know, senior leadership teams rather than senior leaders. So, like even people who are middle and senior managers aren't still able to access that readily. Um, but also for people who want to um succeed well, but by doing things differently, who are ready to think differently, but want to be in an um part of a community of people who are also of that mindset. Um so it's yeah, it's it's about helping you succeed, but in a way that's sustainable, rather than pushing through, breaking yourself and then having to rebuild from that.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

So, what what were the pillars that you you or the processes that you go through then to help people succeed in in ways that are sustainable to help us understand that or to to take a an idea to implement in our own lives if we're if people are listening to this and interested in that?

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Yeah, so the um I mean there's pillars and pathways that we've implemented based on becoming um a well-rounded lifestyle rather than just focus purely on your career, because the the kind of the mindset of I'll focus on my career, and then what happens outs outside of that happens outside. Actually, there's so much of your life and your habits and your routines outside of life that can make or break your career. Um, and so they're not uh you can't think of them in silos. Um, but the the starting point for us at Intar is renew, which is focused on um, as you say, the found the foundations of actually thinking about disrupting what we consider normal, even if it feels uncomfortable, um, even if it's what you've always known and what everyone else around you believes, um, and then working out a way that works better but for you, rather than just forcing you to fit into another square box in a different place. Um, so that's kind of where we start. Um, and then from there, once you've completed renewing the foundations, then we build on it through uh masterminds, through expeditions. Um, it's all about professional and personal development through a medium that works for you, basically.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Nice. You're you reminded me of a of a quote there by Gabol Mate, um, that normal is not always natural or healthy.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Um I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Um yeah, and and I'm I'm hearing that that one of the ways to do is yeah, the the hostilic harm harmonized approach rather than yeah um giving people the awareness to create or space to have an awareness of what energy and intention they're putting into different things, not just in work. Is there is there a lot of resistance to that, or are people usually in such a state that they're quite happy for your guidance and leadership?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Um so I think there's a couple of different things. So there is resilience in the world, definitely. Uh sorry, resistance in the world to that kind of thought process. Um, mostly because no one's ever questioned it, and that's kind of sold as the truth that this this is this is the way to succeed. Um, and if you've not seen if you've not seen anyone succeeding in a different way, then why would you question it? Everyone else around you is doing it. That's the path you've been told to follow. So it's not if you assume that the path is the correct path, then the way to get to the end of it quicker is to work harder. But the world is like snakes and ladders, like you can you can want to get there, but it it doesn't necessarily mean that that's how it's gonna look. Um I think by the time people get to renew, it's very much like, yeah, okay, I had I've acknowledged that that isn't working. Um and I'm intrigued about the fact that there could be a better way of doing it, but I just don't know what that looks like yet. And so that's kind of the process that we help people with is uncovering what that looks like for them. Um but we very much think of so, like whether it's military or emergency services, NHS teachers, um, we've got you know lawyers who have had that set, you know, so it's not specifically publicly funded organizations who have that mindset. Um, but having a driven mindset means you're more likely to end up in one of those organizations. Um and so some of it is um picking, some of it is um more educational, but it's all based on science and uh what we've learned from psychology, what we've learned about the nervous system, um, and how it's it's um it's focusing in on a way that is useful to them as an individual.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

What what advice do you think you'd have to offer to somebody who would be stuck in the resilience trap and just trying to do one more day, one more lap?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Uh I mean, speaking from someone who's been there and lived it, um, I think the big thing is that I definitely thought the resilience was about like staying in the fight, how long you could endure the fight and just keep going in a way that people didn't notice. But actually, um it not just works so much better, but when you think about it from a logical standpoint, when you're um removed from the actual problem, you know, one of the big things I I always laugh about about leadership was I went through nine months of training where someone I remember on an exercise, someone physically grabbed me by the scruff of my neck, yanked me back about three metres, and went, lead from here. What's the bigger picture? And I'd been like up close and personal and you know, quite blinkered about this person who was struggling in a loud way. And actually, when you step back three metres, you realise that there's other things going on that aren't the loudest thing, but doesn't necessarily mean that they're not the problem that needs fixing the most. Um, and so I think the more we can think about resilience being stepping back, stepping out of the fight earlier rather than enduring a fight that either wasn't one for us to win or isn't really the important fight, um, actually really makes a difference. So let let's talk about the nine months of leadership theory rather than the ten months of that's great, Kirsty, now do all this work and ignore everything else. Um coming back to basics has really made a difference. And I think that makes a difference for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

W what what are your basics that that that you build your foundation on?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Um the Big thing I think is um I did lots of deep diving because a classic neurodiverse person got stuck in a rabbit hole about compounding interest. And actually, if you compound small amounts of negative habits, you can end up quite in a quite a difficult place, or you can compound small amounts of positive habits and end up in quite a good place. Um it's still going to take us the same amount of time, but you are only good as your baseline. And if your baseline is no no real, you know, poor habits, no real routine, running stressed from thing to thing, constantly firefighting. I always joked in the military that we were putting fires out, but sometimes we were lighting them ourselves so that we could say that we've put them out and ignoring, ignoring the big fire over in the corner and hoping that no one else is it. Um so I think if you if you can get your baseline in a way that works for the life that you want, not the life that someone's told you to have, if you can create a routine and a habit that even on your worst days are leading you to the goals that are important to you. Um, and if you can stand back far enough and long enough to actually see the big picture and stop, you know, bailing a boat out while there's a massive gaping hole at the other end of it. Because I think that's what I was doing was you know just bailing water out as fast as I could and hoping for the best. And that just knackers you out quickly, like the boat's still gonna sink.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

It's just tiring.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

It's just now you're knackered as well. So yeah, for me, they are my foundations.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Love it, yeah. And I guess sometimes it takes external support or a certain level of of struggle or suffering to to be able to want to step into those sorts of environments or or zoom out and and check our perspective on.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's an element of you have to acknowledge it yourself because um, as I say, like you know, I've been told countless things that have gone over your head if you're not in the right place to hear them. Um, and it's all the opposite is kind of true of you can get all the support you want, but if you're not taking it on board or accepting it, or if it's not the right support for you at that point, it can also be very kind but not necessarily very helpful. Um so we very much operate from the, you know, give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man fish kind of principle of like actually there are charities, there are organizations, but if if a a three-day well-being retreat has you having a great three days, but then nothing changes when you get back to work, then actually how how helpful or how how often do you then have to spend on holiday in order to try and manage your life and how much actually easier is it if you manage your life in a way that works for you and don't rely on that to get by.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Right, right. Guess as we start to wrap this conversation up, I'm curious, is there anything we've not talked about that you'd like to mention?

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Um I mean, I think we sort of touched on it, but I always come back to the idea of what stabilization is. So if you imagine a boat and forgive me for some physics from DC, but um being stable is not about the boat never rocking. And actually it's you know, there's there's countless um motivational quotes and say whatever in terms of a boat's built not built to stay in the harbour, but that's kind of true, like you life is about being out on the sea and enjoying it, and the boat is rocking yet, but it's about your confidence in its stability to come back up again and to keep going afterwards. Um but actually if you keep you can't keep the boat in the harbour for the whole of its life and you can't uh go out in a way that is unstable and becoming worse for the whole of your life. So I think the the big thing for me is that if you if you really want to enjoy the whole of your life, if you really want to enjoy the whole of your career, um it's about sustainable lifestyle choices in order to be a high performer, not about pushing through for a tenure period.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yeah, definitely. I love it. Kirsty, thank you very much for taking the the time to speak to us today. It's a it's a very relevant conversation and one that I find myself having more often, so there'll be a lot of value in in listeners for um for listening today, both on sharing your story and also some of those things that you've alluded to in terms of resilience trap and even being able to s stabilize our boat and to get it get it get it out of the harbour. So thank you very much. Um very insightful. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Thanks for having me.