S3 Ep117 Ben Williams: The In Between

The mindset that helps you survive hard things can also be the mindset that slowly breaks you. Erin sits down with Ben Williams, former Royal Marine commando, author, and startup founder, to talk about the moment grit stops feeling like strength and starts feeling like a mask you cannot keep wearing. Ben shares what it looked like when achievement kept moving the goalposts, stress piled up, and disconnection turned into burnout, depression, and a brutally honest rebuild.

We get practical and reflective about the liminal space, that in-between stretch where you are no longer who you were, but not yet who you are becoming. Ben explains why modern life pushes us to rush from A to B, and how that urgency shows up in careers, fitness, relationships, and even the way we cope. We also unpack suffering versus struggle, fixed mindset versus growth mindset, and the subtle inner narratives that turn everyday pressure into something personal and crushing.

From jiu-jitsu as a humility practice to therapy as a place to take the load off, Ben offers a powerful image you will remember: putting the rock down and sitting next to it. He also speaks about building healthier veteran pathways into startups through FirstFound, and why rejecting hustle culture is part of sustainable high performance. If you are navigating transition, leadership pressure, or mental health challenges, this conversation gives you language, perspective, and permission to be human. Subscribe, share this with someone in a liminal season, and leave us a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Ben’s Here

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Fortune Resilience, real conversations for high performers facing transition. I'm Erin Hill. And join me as I talk with people about challenge change and the adversity they faced in life, so we can learn from their experiences, insights, and stories. Today I'm joined by Ben Williams. Ben's a former Royal Marine commando and author of the Commander Mike Deck, also co-founder of Lupin. His life has been shaped by reinvention. From a journey with purpose in the Royal Marines to coaching elite performers and building a technology company. But at some stage, beneath all of that, momentum and achievement, Ben became increasingly disconnected from himself. Today his work begins to explore what happens when strength becomes a mask and achievement no longer feels like it's enough. And the mindset that once carried us begins to cost us. Ben, welcome to the show, buddy. Thank you, mate. How are you? Yeah, apart from the obvious, um, I am really, really good. And I'm very, very grateful to be sat here having this conversation with you today for lots of different reasons, mate. So yeah, hot and grateful. What about you, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Hot and grateful, yeah, I like that. That's uh I'm gonna go with that as well. I'm hot and grateful. Gratitude is the we don't practice it enough, do we? And that is the whole talked-about thing, and it has been for many, many, many years around showing gratitude and trying, you know, there's the whole journey gratitude in the morning and just being grateful. And I'm sure we can talk a lot about that. But um before we came on air, I was very close to moaning about being a hot British person where we moan all year about it not being hot and it gets hot and we're like it's too hot, and I don't know where that in between of where I want it is. Um and so being grateful it's warm today.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, I'm enjoying it. That's interesting, mate. Because because if it if I if I'm gonna go down that path and be that that person that's dripping about the heat, then it would be I I I think in that, a bit like what you we we talked about off camera, what might this what might be in this for me, and that is that I can experience the heat. I mean, don't uh I don't have to like it. There's something in in this for me about yeah, being able to experience it.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah. But yeah, I'm hot, hot and grateful. I'm gonna follow you on that.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Love it, love it. Good choice, mate, good

When Grit Stops Working

SPEAKER_00 2:35

choice. Ben um I'm curious what what happens when the mindset that once saved you or that got you to so many places and saves you no longer can sustain you.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

I think uh we're two interesting people to talk about this, really, aren't we? I think the the folks that come from the military, and I think more particular, like kind of let me just let my dog in. She loves these episodes.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Good, she's got a good taste, mate.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

I'll start this bit again. No, that's all, mate. This doesn't get edited, it stays.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I don't get edited in real life. She's like, uh she's like, oh, you tell her that story again, are you? Yeah, just come to join it. Yeah. Um is yeah, military folk, especially those I think who have been now at the pointier end to, you know, those parachute regiments, special forces, the marines. We there's this kind of stigma, I think, that's applied to what's rightly or wrongly, that we're very stoic, very resilient, we can get through stuff, and you just have the mindset to like crunch it out and get it done. I think when you're in the military, that serves you well for a particular thing, right? And you're actually around people which think in very similar ways, but you're also around very particular processes, well-honed processes, um, ways of doing things, the SOPs, you know, everything's as much as we're courageous and we're resilient and we go into very difficult situations, people would question, the normal person would question why someone would do that and how we do it, and it gets dressed up as heroes and brave. You also have a lot behind you that's perhaps you for those moments, and you're not often going in blind, uh, you're going in with good people and people who are as as trained, if not better trained, than you, and there's a lot of confidence between behind the kit and the actual tactics of what you're doing. So I think the mindset of what carries you through those moments naturally fits in and doesn't really wilt. I found since leaving the military I've had to evolve my mindset from not thinking I'm so resilient and tough and can get through anything and run through brick walls, and actually I'm not always surrounded by a great team, or I'm not always going to have good people around me. I won't always have the resources or the the tactical nuance to get things done, and you know, whether that's starting a business, life in general, it's not all there. And actually, I think the issue that I carried, I can't talk for everyone else, but is I tried to take that mindset into business, especially, and it didn't work for me because I thought running at brick walls constantly was what I could just keep doing because I'm X-Forsers, because I've done operations and hard training. And I was almost naive to my own mindset. Ironically, when I wrote about it as well. And it's not what I wrote about was wrong, it was was I living and breathing what I was telling other people, which I'd probably look back on and say no. And um, or at least not all of it. And I think I pushed myself so hard that then the burnout occurs from years of stress and not looking after myself, not regulating properly, but constantly sat there going, Oh, I should be able to get through this. I'm an ex-commando, I'm a boot neck, I'm a marine, to the point where it pushed me so far that I didn't want to be here anymore. And and like I really didn't know what depression or burnout was. I I assumed what it was, and I was one of those people when people said they were depressed, and like, oh, what is the you know, behind their back, what is depression? Sure, you just like get on with it until it really gets you, and then you realize it's something you cannot avoid. It's something that lives with you permanently and takes months, if not years, to navigate through, and a lot of help and guidance, and a lot of vulnerability as well. Um and so coming back to your question, I think it all derives down for me now. What that what is that mindset that gets you through? It's not it's no longer a mindset for me in a sense of a military perspective. That's a part that carved me into something that I am now. I think it's now that more for me self-awareness of when I'm starting to not feel great, what do I do? Um I think vulnerability and authenticity is two crucial ones because of you know, even how we a lot of us portray ourselves online like, oh, I did this and I did that. And most people typing those things behind the keyboard are in some way fucked, or something's gone wrong, or there's a burning car in the background, right? But that's not talked about. And I find actually talking more openly about my own mental health and my own struggles and what I go through. Whether that annoys the person reading it or talking to me about or not is irrelevant, right? I actually find being very open is helping me regulate where I need to be on that particular day or that particular week, what I don't need to do, what I do need to do. Um, and I think that mindset is a maturity on the one that I left the Marines with, which I thought was all about STERZ and get up at 3:30 with Joco Willen Inc. and all that other stuff around what being an elite soldier looks like. I actually I think we we looking back, we had a lot of pride in the fact, especially where you went um into SF and you know where I was in the core, we were very much about the thinking soldier, and actually since leaving, I've been more compelled to be like, Well, I'm the thinking soldier, I'm thinking about my emotions, I'm thinking about letting this go today, not being so wound up and tight on this, and not just being constantly hard-headed and trying to run through walls, and that's serving me better now than it probably ever has, because I'm aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, I love that, mate. I can't help but draw the reflection

Becoming A Feeling Soldier

SPEAKER_00 8:40

for me. I'd summarise it as going from thinking soldier to feeling. Feeling soldier. Yeah. Because that's something that I'd never been taught and and and ran from.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah. Yeah, it's I I I jumped on a call this morning actually with one of the guys I'm uh organising um a bit of a kind of weekend away for a football team to have an experience into some of our military life, but I've been really clear with the team that I'm running it with in partnership because it's not my wheelhouse and it's it's not what I really do these days, but I've been asked to support it. Um I said this isn't about like throwing them off a cliff to do ab sailing, getting them wet for the sake of it. They're looking to identify a culture and you in the organization, being the club, that goes from the kit man through to the board level and players in between. And by doing that, we have to approach things very differently. I was on the call with one of the guys who I've not met before. It's funny, we're both wearing baseball caps, both in some sort of BJJ or coffee crossfit attire. He's got loads of stuff in the background, and we were talking about our emotions and the psychology of actually being a feeling marine, as you said there. Um, and I said to him, I was like, we've both got our headphones in. Um, you know, the coffee shop next to me's got no idea we're talking about our emotions, and they could easily look over at the screen, be like, them boys are talking about like killing stuff and fighting and stuff like that. Tattoos, tattoos. Yeah, and we're not, we're talking about how we feel. Um, and I find it strangely ironic that we only start to talk about that stuff when we leave and after we've left and after we've been out of the military for quite a while, where we've sort of mature around it. And imagine if it was something that was in the lifeblood of the organization when we're in. And I think it is to a degree, but it's done in the sense of gallows humour, taking the mick out of stuff, um uh ripping into each other and that bravado that carries that kind of emotional outlet, or dripping, as most of the Marines do, it's like a an unhappy Marine is one not dripping. Um, and uh yeah, it's it's quite fascinating when you start to talk to a more men, especially from quite pointier parts of the world and organizations that we're talking more about our feelings. And I think we actually have maybe as those men who have come from those careers where especially younger men look at us and think they're stoic, they do this, they think like this, is actually the more vulnerable and open we are about emotions, the more it will help them in their own lives. And I think that's almost a responsibility as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Um in terms of your story, I know you've got so much and uh a lot of it's already out there, Ben. But what what excites you in terms of your story to share or to talk about? Yeah, especially especially just today.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

I it was in your fourth point you um you sent me via WhatsApp for what what some good ideas we could talk about. And um it's uh for me I've been quite become quite fascinated about this in-between space, right? So I've started calling it the liminal part. Liminal comes from Latin meaning of basically the it's the middle ground, it's the it's the the in-between of everything. And I was having a chat with a friend of mine the other day, ironically, another kind of bald, tattooed male para, black belt, second-degree jujitsu

The Liminal Space Between A And B

SPEAKER_01 12:40

guy, you know, way better cauliflower ears than me. And um, in fact, I'm got a tiny tweak on one. And we were in a cafe, and uh again, it was that kind of I wonder if anyone looking over is actually curious about what we're talking about. What we were talking about um was this in-between state and uh how so many people seem hellbent on getting from A to B as quick as possible, and you can see it in how people now approach fitness. So, more and more young people, you know, I did this when I was younger, but more and more young people using illegal supplements and steroids and peptides to get to muscle growth and strength increase quicker to look more aesthetically pleasing for whatever's coming up. You see more people who shouldn't be using, I think it's manjura or manjure or whatever it's called, the um fat loss injections more frequently who shouldn't be using it. And so you see the fitness world in itself, like everyone wants to be at looking like something quicker. Um, you can see it of like our online deliveries, and you know, there used to be something around ordering something online and having to wait, you know, five to six days if it was gonna come. Like, oh, I'd be here soon, it'd be here soon. Now you can literally pay a quid more on prime and it'd be here today. Like you can get it delivered to your house today. Um and our careers and you know, people, relationships and things like Tinder have made sex more accessible and and all sorts of stuff where there's almost no challenge to suffering anymore. You know, you could just get rid of the suffering if you really wanted to. And obviously, there's many things that you have to suffer through to get there. Um, but I think, especially as a Western society, if we've become so akin to cutting the corner and getting to B quicker, that we've we're missing the point now, actually. But between being being between A and B is the whole point, and that's what I keep coming back to about the liminal part. Around that's where the growing happens, that's where the self-discovery happens, that's where the punch in the face happens and the setbacks come from, and you have to reassess and you learn and you go again. And it's it's fascinating. You you'll know people who have done Everest. I know people, and the guys I know, most of them have said pretty much the similar thing. It's like it's not about the summit, it's about the journey to the summit and back so you can tell the story. They're not talking about the summit, that's 10 minutes at the top with lack of air in your lungs. Like they're talking about what it took to get there, including the prep they did to get to base camp and everything else, and then they go and do the mountain and come back. And I think that's the bit a lot of people miss, and I get quite a lot of um I get quite a lot of excitement out of hearing more people starting to accept that they're in the in-between and it's okay to be in the in-between. But I think the issue we have in society is a lot of people feel that stuck, trapped, lost, don't know, unsure. I was something, but I'm not at what I'm becoming next, and not comfortable being in that middle ground. Whereas what I'm trying to talk to people about is actually being in that middle ground's the game. That's part of the fun. And when you really look at it on paper, there is only one point A and there is only one point B. You are born and you will die. Like, and then we just make life a series of A's and B's. And I think also the narrative's not helped us where we're born, do preschool, you then go to school, you sit a number of exams between certain ages, then you get to 16, you make a choice if it's college or A levels, then you go through those particular gates, then you do uni, and then most people either do uni or start their career, then there's a bit of travel, then we come back, then we're then we're kind of encouraged to get the house, you're on the mortgage ladder now, then you need to find your partner, then you get married, then you have the kids, buy the dog, get the hamster, and then bury the hamster, and then you go through life in general, they get older, they begin to repeat that cycle, you then look at retiring, you spend a few years retired, old people's home, died. And that's what we've been sort of taught is the journey. And if we're not at the right stages of that journey at certain ages, then I think people compare themselves to others and assume they're failing, which is again not the point. The point is you are on your journey between A and B, and what you choose to do between that is your growth, it's your self-discovery. I think having more conversations with people where I'm able to use my experiences, which are less around, oh, I was in the Marines and I did this and did that. It's actually I've got a particular set of life experiences now in the Marines. Uh, I did a lot in high performance coaching, I've done the tech startup, I've raised the investments, I've crushed it and I've crippled it. Like the and the happiest I've probably been is actually now where things are still a little bit more wolf at the door and spooky, but I'm very content with that life's pressure because I'm content with who I am and what I'm trying to be and achieve. And I just don't feel a lot of people get there. So they live life very unsatisfied.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, there's that's there's definitely been a few waves, as there is in in in most people's story, Ben. And I and I just want to pick up on something you said about like trying to achieve things or to to reach certain goals is a certain amount of suffering. But I I'm curious, what's the the difference for you between suffering and struggling?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Oh, that's a good question. I was I was writing something the other day about this where it seems asked me at the time, I'd have probably said something completely different different. But years on, when you pass out of training, and that's it, like training's over, and you say goodbye to that troop you've been through so much with, you've got your green beret, and you've you've passed

Suffering Versus Struggle Defined

SPEAKER_01 18:29

for duty, and then that whole day you've been preparing for and working up to for 32 weeks or whatever, it's over, and then you're travelling up the line back home, and then you're at a unit on Monday where you're back down to the bottom of the food chain. Now, ask anyone at that point in time, do you enjoy training? They're probably gonna say, No, and I'm so glad to get out there and get to a unit. I think 15 or so years on, or whatever it's been, probably longer than that. 20 years on, 30 years on. Christ for crap with numbers. Um, no, it's definitely not 30 years long because that means I'll join the Marines when I was eight. So we'll it's alright for 20, 20 years. We can put it in the GD. Uh yeah. I I was I was always the guy which was do you want to know how much ammo we have got or haven't got? I've got that as that guy. Um but yeah, I I actually look back on it and go, oh man, I kind of like missed that journey of the Marines. And so uh training to become a Marine. And there's so the struggle and the suffering. I think the suffering is the very, very uncomfortable part that truly introduces you to yourself. And it's not nice, and quite often it's adverse. But put in a training environment, predominantly it's usually quite safe. The suffering is the instructors grilling you, you don't know when it's going to end, it's honking, and you're up all weekend, and everything's like been ruined in the accommodation, you've got an inspection on Monday or something like that. And that's not nice. And they're the bits where you check your watch and you question like why you're here and what you're doing is for. And that that is suffering, but we need that type of suffering in life because it introduces us to ourselves. The struggle, the struggle I describe as comes back to this cutting corners thing, right? You can turn up on week one of training, you can say what you want, pay what you want, do what you want. You ain't gonna get the title of Marine unless you go through the hurdles and the weeks that they're gonna put in front of you. Same for you when you go on selection. You you are not gonna get there. You can say you want to be there, you could you could wish all the cutting corners in the world, but you're not gonna get there without doing the course. And within that course is a series of suffer points, but the actual course itself is the struggle. And I think the struggle is not with the course, the struggle is with yourself. Do I have what it takes to get me as far as I can into this course so then I am deemed fit for purpose as a Marine, as a special forces operator? And I think it's the struggle with ourselves against the task that we're doing, is the real work. The suffering is just a series of events that sit within that course that are there to either try and make or break us. Uh, that we we we usually don't like being within. I think that in itself, though, outside the military is always a great example, but it's not always civilianized. And that in Civ Street, I think isn't as transparent. I think it's quite opaque. It's like I think we live we're living through a time at the moment that feels like there is a lot of suffering. Um pockets have got tighter, you know. Anyone who owns their own business will know how hard it is at the moment. Anyone who's in business knows how volatile it is at the moment, and that's just business. And then we look at geopolitical issues, uh, macro, micro issues, so much stuff, the rhetorics and the narratives that come through the press, it all just feels very oppressive and it feels like everything is suffering, which then makes everything feel like a struggle. So it's I think the natural environment we find ourselves in at the moment almost entwines both. Putting it into a performance context, such as sport, the Marines, whatever it is we're talking about there, then I think the suffering is very much the adverse moments that you have to go through. The struggle is you against yourself with that course or what what you're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah, that's that's it's it's it's really interesting that. Um and because the w the way that I see it, I'm inclined to agree with some things, and it's uh what I I'm gonna pick up on the point you made right at the end there, but yeah, in the military sometimes it's a bit louder, it's a bit uh more aggressive, it's a bit more obvious, and I think so many people, myself included, it's it's outside of that environment, it's very quiet, it's very subtle, it's very slow. And I and I think that's one of the struggles um is exactly that, that these layers build up and we don't even recognise them sometimes until yeah, it's it's there's a big old slap and a wake-up call. Um and and for me, as I was listening to you speak there, I'm gonna go away and look at this again. But what came to me is that suffering is almost uh external, but we take it sorry, suffering is yeah, external, but it's happening to me, poor old me. It's almost victim mode. That's what I'm hearing for myself anyway. Where struggle is this is happening for me, and I might I might not be able to change anything, but I can change how I language it or see it, and it's um yeah, the the meaning I give it. Um yeah, I'm not I'm not sure if you'd push back or challenge that in any way, mate, in in terms of your experiences, especially with the with the spotlight of in between businesses, phases, life.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, I think like it can like you take Carol Dweck's growth mindset. Great, everyone should read that book. Mindset, I think it's good. And um, or at least just like blink at it and just know the kind of core fundamentals of it. But when you when you start to see, uh, do you have a fixed mindset or growth mindset? You and you have a growth mindset in particular areas of your life and you have a fixed mindset. I think I came across a lot of people who are like, oh, I'm more of a fixed mindset person, or I'm more of a growth mindset. It's actually where you feel most exposed and most vulnerable, you're probably gonna find yourself desiring comfort

Fixed Mindset, Stories, And Stress

SPEAKER_01 24:20

quicker, which is naturally gonna lean you more towards uh a fixed mindset. Whereas if you feel maybe slightly more aware or more confident, or you've been in a similar situation before, and you know you can sort of put the similar mindset into a similar situation, you're gonna have more of an aptitude for growth in that particular area. And I think there are people who are hungrier to learn than they are hungrier than than people who are quite comfortable being fixed. Um, but it comes to your point around what narrative are you giving yourself around what's happening to you? And and I've, you know, I uh hand on heart, I happily and openly honestly say, when I was running, especially looping, I found myself saying to myself a lot of the time, why is this happening to me? Why today? Why me? Why me, me, me, me, me? Right? And it was just nuances of business, it was just changes in market, changes in personality, you know, people you're around influence things differently. And I took it, I took quite a lot personally when I didn't really need to, and that then induced a deeper level of stress that didn't need to be there. And actually, then that's where you then catastrophize things because you're thinking about things in different ways where they're not really like that, but you're catastrophizing them, which makes you feel worse and very fixed mindset. Um ironically, go through the suffering and the struggle, I suppose. And I think you have to come out the other side and look back and go, where did I go wrong? Um, and have that internal conversation about okay, how do I not do that in the future, and how do I do that slightly differently as I move forward? And and all of it for me has come back in has come back to being very vulnerable and open about my emotions and my mistakes. If I could do those two things, emotions and mistakes, it seemed like everything got a little bit easier. Like the ego just died down a little bit. I think people took me more seriously when I was open about those stuff, those things. And I think it just helped me develop as a as a as a dad, as a man, um, as a human being. And they're the two fundamental things that a lot of people aren't willing to really embrace publicly, which is what are your failures, what are you fit at basically, and where do you fail, and talk about your emotions. Um and I think having that narrative in my head has helped me be much less fixed-minded, more growth-minded set, which then when it comes to the narrative of suffering versus struggle, it's much easier to go, this isn't happening to me. It's some something's trying to tell me something right now to do something slightly different, and I need to listen to that.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Well what would you say is the biggest thing you've had to unlearn then, Ben? Um, especially as we as we consider this, like in between.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Feeding the ego. When you you know this, when you step away from the military, especially the times we operated, like we have done the hot spots in the world, we have been shot at, have been blown up, we've been through those things that people tell the stories of, and there's been a die-off now, and those stories don't necessarily exist at the moment, and they will again one day, but in a different environment and different situation. Um,

Ego, Impostor, And The Heavy Mask

SPEAKER_01 27:48

and I think I had a real big ego, to be honest, when I left, and maybe a bit arrogant around who I was, and I think I was quite lucky. I was, you know, a Marine, I had a good career as a Marine. I landed on my feet with stuff like the England football teamwork that I got. I wrote a book for Penguin, I got on, I did some great interviews with like Steven Butler on Dio CEO and got some great PR, and it just feeds the ego, right? It feeds the ego. And then when that happens, I I think you find if you're in a particular place or role or situation where you don't feel like you're performing, the ego's getting fed, as is the imposter. So now I talked about this the other day. Sat on, although I've been told it was a very authentic interview, sat on Stephen Barrett's dire of the CEO, was the least authentic I've ever felt. Really? And yeah, I'm like, and I and I said things as they were, and I was very open and transparent, but I definitely walked away from the interview feeling like a fraud. Because part of me thought I shouldn't be there, like all the other people he's had in the chair. There's the imposter present who thought I shouldn't be there. The other part was like the ego didn't feel like it was keeping up with what it was saying. So, yeah, as tech CEO, whatever it was, of a of a startup, and people look at that and they go, Oh, successful, and he's on the podcast and he's talking to these people, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that all gets fed. And when you're in the background knowing all of it's on fire and nothing's working, but everyone thinks it is, and everything's great, is you feel like you have to keep up with the narrative of like, oh, the successful narrative as opposed to no, everything's fucked. I don't know what I'm doing, completely don't know what I'm doing. Um and I think I went against my own values, leaning in leaning in the direction of that and the narrative of all's well, and everything's successful, blah, blah, blah, and following that trend of thinking and knowing what I'm doing. Um, and that's ultimately what I think over time crushed me because you're constantly wearing this mask. And my therapist said it, it there comes a point where your mask is too heavy to keep on your face, and then it falls off. Um, and I think for me that's what it was. It was just I was putting too much pressure on myself. Maybe some of that was linked to ego, some of that's like linked to imposter, I don't want to let people down. I'm the ex-marine, I can't show this vulnerability. I've got to do it, I've got to keep going, I've got to keep doing. Um and ultimately getting to a point in life where you go through all of that, go through the depression, go through the suicidal phase, go through a phase where you have to take meds, which I found was a very rough phase because I didn't want to rely on other stuff. But I I was almost, you've got to do this. Go to go through a phase of actually having to be vulnerable in therapy and not sitting there and going, yeah, I'll do this in like four weeks. Like it's gonna take 12 months of weekly therapy, and and other things like crying in front of my kids and crying in front of my wife, and actually learning to be human with my feelings, help me manage the ego to say, we don't need to be like this all the time. Actually, it's it's okay to fail, it's okay to not be good in this area, it's okay not to achieve this. The actual real win is that you can share emotion, you can be with yourself, you can be present, and you don't need to fuel the fire of what everyone else thinks you should look like. And and I don't know if that's as clear as it could be, but that's ultimately what I've learned to put down is the mask. All of that built into a mask. Um putting down the mask and turning up, and what you get, you get. And if you don't like it, you don't like it, right? And if you do like it, great, we have a great conversation. It's just that's the way it is. I fear we live in a world where everyone wears a mask, especially online, and people aren't sure how to put the mask down. And I think what I'm beginning to find now is a place in my life where I can talk to people about how you take that mask off uh and live more authentically to who you are as human.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah, I think I'd reflect another win, mate, and that is that that yeah, here this how it's meant to be said, and that's that you're here to share your story as well and talk about it. Yeah, because not everybody is. Um, how do you catch your ego? How do you how do you recognize when that mask is starting to come back on? What what external and internal things do you do, mate?

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Well, I've bang the drum a lot on it, right? Uh in the BJJ world, I'm I'm not the most experienced practitioner, but the reason I took up jiu-jitsu was because it put me in a place where the ego gets smashed, and you need the highest level of humility. And I'm relatively strong and I sit at sort of 90 kilos, so I know if I can get on top of someone, I'm I'm gonna be there for a while. And then you come up against a young 17-year-old who's 50 kg piss wet through and they can

Humility Training Through Jiu Jitsu

SPEAKER_01 33:06

throw you around like a ragdoll. And that for me is it's not jujitsu, it's but it's about finding something that humbles you and allows you to stay comfortable in that humility. Um it's always that way, isn't it? You you're the sum of the um people you spive people you spend the most time with, and actually jujitsu for me was something that got very near back to the core of people who were on a mission, they wanted to be successful successful in a particular way, but there was people better than them in the world, and you sort of it was encouraging to be around people who were trying to excel and achieve. And I think that's been quite hard to find out in the civilian world for me, where that I think jiu-jitsu is the closest I've found to that, but also it's somewhere where you know, having an off day or an off week, you you go in, you get humbled, you feel good for being humbled, and the person you humbled, you sit around afterwards talking about your emotions and your feelings. And that's like that's seriously great place to be part of. However, I'll caveat that with if I haven't done something like that, like I haven't in two weeks, and I'm having a wobble. Um, and the ego or the imposter, the more the imposter kicks in, and I'm like, we're back again. Told you it hadn't gone away. I don't think I struggle as much with my ego as as much as I actually do with my impostor now. And it's the imposter who I think talks to me a bit loudly around um, we're never fixed. You've been through all this therapy, we're never really fixed, and I'm waiting for you to feel that moment where you don't feel feel fixed, and I'm then I'm gonna tell you. And that's the bit that that internal dialogue, that courage to talk to yourself and say, we're never fixed, we're only ever in between. And actually, that's part of the journey. Um yeah. I don't know, the ego, I think I haven't had to spend as much time with it as I think I've had to over the last five or six years since being in startups. This is probably the least I've spent time in my ego.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah. That's it's an interesting one because I I I a big breakthrough for me and my personal development was recognizing actually, I don't I believe for me today um that there's nothing to fix. I'm in fact, I'm in exactly where I need to be. Um and yeah, if if I begin to assume that I'm gonna feel successful or peace or loved when I get this, that, or the other, I I s I see that as almost as the opposite of uh of dropping the mask, it's slowly creeping back up and it's slowly starting to play a game that I am not in in the driving seat for, and I'm not in the driving seat for all of it. Um but at least I can I can recognise these these things coming up, and yeah, you're right, there's certain things that go on or narratives in our story that they're gonna take a while to uh turn the volume down on. Um my my point for myself, and just what what do I make that mean?

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah. Yeah, it's um I think you have to get I think you have to get more comfortable with like everything's just part of the discovery journey. Yeah, we we I find uh what I find quite humbling and I and I won't put my um I won't put my foil hat on. But when I came out of depression, I went down the rabbit hole. I mean I fucking went down there. I was like, oh no, what happened on the island, who are the elites, where's the Illuminati? I was like so into all of it. And then you know, my wife has just walked by the window, she was like, Oh, you're turning into a right conspiracist. And I think that that was an ego in inflect uh uh conflict because I was like, no, this shit's happening, right?

From Conspiracies To Looking Inward

SPEAKER_01 37:08

This stuff's really going on. And there's a lot of people in denial about certain things going on, and then I started to realise that, yeah, not all of it like is happening, but the question is we don't know. And then I thought there was like a turning point where I was like, yeah, there's not much I can really do about this, actually, if even if it is all real, right? And it was through that journey I discovered Gnosticism and the Nagamadi texts that are buried uh in the desert and what Jesus' teachings were about the divine spark and the kingdom of God, the kick uh God and the kingdom of heavens within you, the third eye, and then I started to explore more around what other religions and beliefs were saying around the third eye and internal belief systems, and actually, it's not about out there, it's about in here. And I went through this really fucking weird couple of months where I was I genuinely had the foil hat on the head, researching it all. My algorithm was terrible, and then over time it was I was suddenly on religion, and then I was trying to talk to my wife about it, who who I would say is much more grounded and rational because she's the one who has to probably keep the house in order, otherwise it turns to chaos. And I um and she was like, Are you becoming religious now then? Is this the thing? I said, No, because I don't think it is about religion. What it is what it's about is actually none of we're all looking out, we never look in. And I spent a lot of time suddenly starting to look in. And whether we can, whether we call that religious or spiritual, whatever, I think the biggest thing I learned in all of this was we have very little answers for a lot of the stuff that is happening around us. And even if certain things are happening or not happening, and they're relevant to conspiracy theories, but even how deep space works, what's the existence of what's the meaning of life? What was before the Big Bang? You know, those rational questions that a lot of us would also ask, we have no influence on, we can't do anything about. We where'd you go with any of this stuff? And actually, well, then the only real work I can do is on myself, and that's an internal journey. And then I go back to what you learn what Christ was actually talking about, which is the divine spark, and everything is within you, and that internal self-discovery, and that's all that the self-development industry became over the last 40 to 50 years. It just became very well marketed, a massive sales engine. And look, give me your problems, and I'll give you a plunge pool and an ROI for two grand workshop. And it actually stripped that stuff back. It's the same stuff that was being talked about thousands of years ago about finding yourself. And I think that for me has what sort of really brought me back into a state of calm with who I am and my emotions is that fucking no one has this figured out. We've got no idea why we're here, and we can get all wound up and trapped and all the other big shit happening in the world that we literally have no influence over. Why don't we just spend time working on ourselves internally? And actually, what does life become from there? And I think it's a state of calm as opposed to anything else that allows you to sit with a number of the things that might be happening in your life to look at it far more objectively than I think we actually do when we're just up against the cold face, everything feels shit, everything feels oppressive, and everything feels like it's falling apart. And I think it's that ability to be objective about none of this is personal. This is just where you find yourself. It's trying to teach you something, it's whether you're willing to listen to that lesson or not will dictate the direction you you go in. And that's where I put my ego aside to be like, just come inwards and focus on myself. And honestly, I have been mind-blown by the amount of guys, especially who I would have quite easily tarnished with the whole, oh, you won't have this conversation with me. Who are having the conversation, and I think what a wonderful thing, and we just have to keep that narrative alive and keep talking about this stuff because I think overall it mentally helps people feel better.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yeah, wow. I went on a path there. That was a good one, mate. You'll you'll you'll be interested to listen back to that for yourself. Um fuck. I love it, Ben.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

That's why she left the house. I was waving for eyes. That's it. Backpack.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

But that it brings it it makes an important point for me that exactly that we when we are struggling, suffering, whatever word you choose, we we we are focused on ourselves and forget everything else around us, and that that isolation factor I know for some people can can sit so so heavy. Um and in in recognizing our own struggles, you as you say, there's certain conversations that make us human that start to connect us on so many other levels as well. And I I wonder what you hear in this saying, and I I I can't remember where I got it from, and it's quite a well-known one, but it's it's you're not a drop in the ocean, you're an ocean in a drop. And I'm wondering what you what you hear in that, if anything.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah, I have heard that a few times. Um I think you're both, right? I think it you you are both, because if you take into consideration, like where are I going to put the kind of more

Drop In The Ocean Perspective

SPEAKER_01 42:39

uh I call it my Ricky Gervais brain, which I don't think is atheist, but I think it's very like it's we're talking Brian Cox type stuff, and it's you know, planet Earth's been alive several billion years, life on Earth is a hundred a couple of hundred million years old, and then humans as a whole is only a flipping couple of thousand, right? And so you if even if I live to 90 or you live to 90 or 100, very minimal time. I think they call it on the clock face. If the whole of Earth's life was on the clock face, humans would be the last 0.5 milliseconds on that clock face 24 hours, which is it then that's everything we ever know about humans is just within that 0.5 seconds gone. So it's we are a drop in the ocean, but equally we are the we we are our own oceans, right? And everything, everything that happens causes a wake, causes a wave, causes a difficulty, causes churn. If we use in kind of the ocean model to look at, and so everything will feel big, everything will feel like a tsunami every now and then, everything will feel um horrendous to live through, and it's very personal, it's very subjective. And so I think the ability to be able to actually move between both in your mind is the important side. What one day you're almost humble enough to recognize that nothing I do on earth will really make an impact. So for for its longevity of however many billion years this thing is going to be left here for. But if I can impact a couple of people along the way to live good and fulfilled lives while they're here, and that starts with children, my wife, my own, then I'm doing something good for the time that I am here. So I'm a drop in the ocean, but perhaps I'm an ocean in the drop for the people that I spend time. With. And that that's the important side. And I think the ego for many people is where they assume the world revolves around them, and they everything is around their ocean, where it's not. Like you are also the drop in the ocean, and you won't be remembered in two generations' time. Um and be humble with that, be comfortable with that, accept that, and then realize that actually those things closest to you now, well, that's the real ocean in the drop, right? That's that's how I perceive it without thinking on it too long.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Love it, mate. Love it. I was curious just to throw it out there and put you on the spot of it, mate. Um, Ben, what what's uh a piece of advice or something that's worked for you when when you found the mask getting too heavy? What would you gently encourage people that might be in that that that place to do, mate?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Do you think I've never found anything more powerful than sitting with it? Um I talk about my therapist a lot. She called Dr. Natasha Roberts, give her well her well-earned uh letters at the start. Um I was given the privilege of working with

Putting The Rock Down

SPEAKER_01 45:39

her uh when I was in crisis, and you know, the Marines Charity helped support, walking with the wounded help support. And we have angels in life, whether we want to say they're paid angels or not. There's people who appear and they help you through those those moments of challenge. And Natasha was there from the start and is still there now, right? In a slightly different capacity. Um and she talked about the rock that we carry. She you know, she talked a lot about the mask. We wear this mask all the time. Um, when it comes to burnout, we're waking up with eight of the matches that the 10 already burnt, and then we're just trying to work out how to keep the other two from burning out through the rest of the day, and then it starts again. That was an important thing to hear that when you're that fatigued, when you're waking up and everything's already burnt, then you're off, you're not gonna have a great day from there. But I think the the biggest thing that stuck with me was, and I always think of penny fan for some reason, but carrying a rock up on your back, big rock, one foot at a time. And the rock is just like slowly getting bigger with life events and experiences and adversity and struggles. And what happens sometimes is people allow the rock to just roll off their back and roll down the hill and see what happens from there, and other people just keep trying to go, right? And both cause damage. Um, and she gave me the advice. No, she didn't give me the advice. This is the important part, actually. She gave me the permission to take the rock off and just sit next to it and look at it. And I and that's what I mean about the liminal path between A and B, between everything that you do, people rarely just stop and just sit with that weight and just look at it. All right, that could be journaling, that can just be something in your mind, you know, whatever you want it to be. Very few sit and be present with the rock. Um and just putting the rock down and sitting with it is so much of the battle because actually what you're doing is you're recognizing the load, you're recognizing the things that might be causing the weight, and that's the first step towards any form of recovery or self-improvement. I think the other side to this as well, and this has to be done um smartly, and you have to trust yourself to do this. Very few of us, and I and I think the military folks, especially with this one, we're horrendous at looking back and seeing how far we've come as well. So we're carrying the big rock, we finally put the rock down, but we never look back and be like, be happy with the successes we've made, the things we've overcome, who you've become over time. We're quite often looking to try and get to the top, be the next achievement, be the next big thing, best thing, whatever it is, or the next course, or you know, how people perceive me. But very negative towards ourselves, I find. Whereas actually, there's two things putting the load of the rock down and sitting with it, and then also being proud of what you've achieved in your life. There are two things to do as a person that can do so much of you, which might give you the confidence to put the rock back on and keep going, and that's part of the journey, or break it down, come back and get chunks of it. But when she said that to me, and I think she literally said it verbatim, I'm giving you permission to sit next to the rock, as easily one of the most powerful things I've ever heard, and stays with me every time I can feel my shoulders getting more tense and just put it down and just go, I'll go fishing for the day. I'll sit with the rock. I I don't think enough people acknowledge that. We just crack on, uh, and that's where a lot of things go wrong.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Ben, as we start to round this conversation out, mate, and I love the analogy of the rock there, and getting to put that down. Is that is there anything else that you feel on your heart you want to mention that we've not talked about so far?

SPEAKER_01 49:29

I think we've probably got another four hours in us to talk about this stuff. I and to be to be honest, I haven't done a podcast in a while, so I've come into this a bit raw, and oh, I've got a podcast that better not talk shit. So I hope I talked less shit than normal. Um there's there's there's loads of stuff I could go off a no tangent on. Like I'm enjoying the two things that I'm working on at the moment, one being FirstFound, which is anyone listening to this who's a veteran and they're interested in building a startup or building a business, um, go have a look at what we're doing at firstfound.co.uk uh because I do believe that more, not every single person from the military, but more people from the military have the mindset that can make them great startup founders and run great startups. And we're trying to encourage that ecosystem to exist more than it does at the moment, especially in the UK. The other side

FirstFound, Liminal Path, And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 50:26

of what I do, which I've talked a lot about, which is the liminal path, um, easy to find as well online. Um I think for me, those two things satisfy a need for me to be working on that aren't just revenue generating, but they provide value for people in their lives. And if I can help one or two veterans not just build a business, but not fucking burn out doing it and think that every shark's after them for money or whatever it is, and actually look at their business logically and enjoy doing it. I think too much of around building a startup is like suffering, it's fucking seven days a week, you never see a family, total bullshit. And most of those people doing that are talking out of their ass. And why have we got all these AI tools that actually create efficiency and make life work in the background while we're running stuff? Just like fuck off with your hustle culture. So that's one thing I want to say. And if anyone who wants to build a startup without that hustle culture, hard work, don't get me wrong, but without a hustle culture and without burning out, that's what we're trying to achieve there. So that for me is a lot of value. I don't want any veteran to end up on a cliff building a business where I ended up. End of. And the liminal path is just that journey of getting more people to recognize that it is absolutely fine to be on that in-between ground. So it's okay. It's absolutely okay. And I think the biggest thing in that is getting more people to realize that they're not on their own doing it. And I think I'm just trying to remove that loneliness of people feeling like I'm on my own, I'm stuck, I'm not progressing like my neighbors are, or like my family are, or my younger brother's doing better than I am. None of that matters. It's your path. The real way to be is is birth and death. What you choose to do on that journey is up to you. And I want more people to feel less lonely on that path. And that's what that whole work around the liminal path is.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Love it, mate. Love it. Well, I'll put I'll put the links to those in in the show notes and and and a place for people to reach out to you on LinkedIn, mate. But Ben, thank you for taking the time to speak to us today, mate. Thank you for your openness and honesty. Thanks for not doing a podcast for a while, because that way it means it's more raw and uh unpolished and straight from the heart, mate. And and who's who's who's paying attention to that, those minor details anyway, mate? The the the point is to to sit here and and and share some time with you listening to a bit about your story and journey, mate. So yeah, thanks for your courage, thanks for your compassion towards yourself, mate, to show up and talk about it. And um, yeah. Go on, mate.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Can I say one more thing? Please, and then won't take five minutes. Uh I want to put that thank you back to people like you. I am a military guy who wanted to go SF, and I put people in the SF world on a pedestal used to put them on a pedestal. Um, I deeply respect who they are and what they do. Where I've learned to take them off the pedestal is completely normalise who we are as people. And I think people like you, I also notice people like Foxy and stuff like that, who talk much more about emotion and who they are as men and who carry that stigma of being SF and the elite. The more open people are like you, and have these conversations, I think inadvertently helps younger men who don't feel as equal or feel like they're suffering in life, stay away more from the substances, stay away more from the depression, stay away more from the suicide. And I think we've got a real problem on our hands with men in general around that. And I think the more people who you would assume would be the alpha who think in particular ways show up to talk in this way, it are having a profound effect on the people that it manages to reach. So, my thanks back to you, mate, is just continue that part of your journey because I don't think you'll realize how many people you help.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

That's very kind of you to say so, mate. And yeah, I fully receive that. Thank you very much. Um, you've given me an idea for the next round table, mate. So uh a new concept. But Ben, thank you very much, mate. Uh, I've fully received lots of love, mate, and I'll speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Cheers, mate.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Thank you.